A WIN FOR ARMENIANISM: God gave mankind freewill

[ForthAngel]

Again, I said he does know the results. And he is in control because he has foreknown our actions and the infinite amount of possibilities of how we'd freely act. Who inspired the bible? Who gave the ten commandments? Who spoke to the prophets? Who has put the law into man's heart? Who will give the riches that are stored by the wicked to the righteous? Who will judge the universe? Who has given me a supernatural vision when I asked God to give me evidence of His existence?

God is active. That's how he is in control. God decided that I can decide... via previnnant grace.

There are no infinite amount of possibilities if you agree that God knew all things from the beginning, even in pre-creation. That, by definition, means everything was predetermined, even our choices. God knew beforehand what we would choose and created everything anyway. Everyone has to wrestle with this fact one way or another, or else move into open theism or Molinism which has been stated. Both attack the nature of God. Open theism is straight up blasphemy while Molinism is bordering on it.

If God did not know all things in eternity past, then God is not omniscient, and if he isn't omniscient, he cant be omnipotent, and if he isn't omnipotent, then the outcome of all things can't be sure. Do you see the issue here? Everything was created with one possible outcome. The crucifixion for example could not have taken place at any other time in history. It happened when it was supposed to. The same with everything else.

If God reacts based on what we choose, then nothing is certain. Prophecy could fail. The outcome of all things would be a toss up. Even if you take the position that God knows an infinite number of outcomes (I'd need scripture for that by the way), then you still have to succumb to the fact that God knew in totality which path mankind would take, down to every minute decision each and every person makes before the decree of creation itself, or else make a claim that God did not know the outcome until later, or not at all.

Whether you are Arminian or Reformed, you cannot get around the fact that all things were predetermined to happen in eternity past. Everything is set in stone. There is a set number of people who will be saved. There is a set number of people who won't be saved, whether by man's choice, or by God's, but ultimately by God's either way because he predetermined all things before creation.

You see, there is a compatibility between man's fallen will and God's sovereign will. God knew the outcome from eternity but created us anyway. We were given free choice and we choose, but ultimately, God works all things together for his own purposes and ends. You see this compatibility with Joseph and his brothers. Joseph tells his brothers what you intended for evil, God intended for good. There was intent with both man and God, but God is sovereign, even over man's will, so his purpose prevailed. The Assyrian king, another example, was used as an instrument of God's wrath and God turned around and judged him for the intent that was already in his heart. So you see that there was intent on the King's part, but God already had a purpose that prevailed. The crucifixion itself. Intent on mans' part that was evil, but God had predetermined to use that evil intent for good, that being the redemption of the elect through the death of his Son. Intent on both man's part, and Gods, but God's will was victorious and always will be because he has predetermined it to be so.

This is why we know "that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose."

Everything has meaning and purpose, even the evil man commits.

 

[Marano]

Yeah, you believe in arminianism not armenianism, as for free will, the bible clearly says we were dead in sin and trespasses, what free will would such a creature have? It has a will but it's bound by it's sinful and evil nature.

 

[samuel23]

It is always scary when we think about what we think that God thinks. Just accept what the bible says and let it go, we could not possibly figure out the mind of God.

 

[Marano]

No. The whole creation, angels, heavens etc included, was called "very good". Including Satan. So it is proof of nothing regarding the ability or inclination to sin.



Every creature is limited, every creature does not have all knowledge and will make wrong decisions from time to time. Every creature incline to evil without the mercy of God.

You expect Adam and Eve to be as pure and perfect as God is. No, their nature was much, much lower and therefore much, much more inclined to evil. It is not something God must specifically create. Its just a nature of any creation who is not God himself.




You must realize that God had a plan from before the creation of the Universe. He already had a plan about me and you. How it would be possible if He could not predict everything what will happen on the Earth?
How could He predict it with certainity? Because He controls everything, every cause and every result.

That He does not give always enough of mercy for us, the limited creatures, not to sin, does not make Him associate of sin. He has very good reasons why He is restraining His mercies for now. Because He has what? A plan.


He could make Adam and Eve not to sin ever. But it would be worse than what He planned. He planned that His own Son will come as a man and so that we trough Him can become His sons. We must always see the glorious result and goal in the end. Not just the beginnings. Its called plan.

Amen to everything you said, God has a plan, that's why certain things happen that we call evil, it all works towards the end goal that's God's glorification.

 

[notuptome]

It's not this (the OP) narrative you are correcting (or attempting to correct). You are rewriting the narrative of the fall and impact of sin on mankind, you have bad chronology, shoddy theology &c. That was my point, obviously I wasn't clear. My apologies.

Are you also a Molinst and Open Theist, sir?



I like your signature but honestly I think it's your cause you're preaching here. Why? You've totally rewritten the narrative of the fall of man and have the chronology and facts askew. Scripture doesn't support either the view of the OP nor yours, sir.

Really there is no need to say that others have taken this off on a tangent. That's a cop out and emotional plea with an unfounded basis. It is meant to deride others instead of actually engaging in the facts of the thread.

Stay on topic, not on feelings of others?

So you go right to attacking me and not the clear fact that Adam and Eve were created innocent?

God has a will and Gods will is sovereign. There is none greater than God so none can oppose Him. God also has a permissive will.

Adam was created in the image and likeness of God. Adam was created with a will. Adams will is not sovereign but Adam has a will that expresses itself within the permissive will of God.

God does not tempt man to sin. Lucifer tempted Eve in the garden not God. Of course to innocent Eve sin looked desirable just as sin looks pleasant to us today. Sin separates man from God. Adam made a choice to cleave unto his wife Eve and become a sinner. Adam was not beguiled like Eve but made a choice between God and Eve.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[Sac49]

Part of the problem here is "how do you define 'free will'"? And where in the Bible does it mention "free will" as in saying we have "free will"? What we have is a sin nature that is opposed to God that only the Holy Spirit can affect. God gives us the ability to make choices but these choices are not "free will".

The argument should not be "Arminianism vs. Calvanism or Methodist vs. Baptist" or any such labels we put on this argument. The argument should be "Biblical vs. Non Biblical". I dont care which "road of theology" you travel but whether it is Biblical or not. There are those in every denomination who do not follow Biblical truth in one way or another.

Not even God has "free will" because God cannot do anything that is against His nature. If God had this so called "free will" then we could not trust anything He has given us because He could change it in an instant because He has "free will" to do so. Due to the unchanging nature of God "free will" does not exist.

 

[Calmador]

God isn't in control due to ("because he has") anything outside of His Person.

There's implication in regards to his foreknowledge. He plans with his foreknowledge.

This is even understood by our own human interactions...

For example, imagine a father who knows his 3 year old daughter very well. The father says, "Look, she's gonna do her little dance in a bit... you just watch." And her daughter does do the "little dance." How did the father foreknew that? The father foreknew because of his experience with his daughter. If a human being can predict such events from past knowledge, how much more a God with FUTURE knowledge?

With this knowledge, God can plan out how we would act. He would know our choices and plan around all those actions in such a way where his plans would happen. In a sense, he'd overpower the universe into his plan.

He is in control.

 

[Calmador]

Adam & Eve were given free will to choose, and they chose to rebel against God.. But once they had chosen to rebel against God they lost free will. Their wills were tainted. Cain and Abel were not born with free will. They inherited Adam's sinful nature. And gradually prejudice, environment etc restricted 'freewill' further. They were free to choose which sins they engaged in but they were not free not to sin. ALL sinned. Full free will was no more.


That was true for Adam. But when he sinned his free will was lost. From then on all men sinned. They had inherited Adam's sinful nature.


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God was ever 'in control'. He had foreknowledge (pre oida) of what man would do. He allowed man to sacrifice his own freewill. And He had already provided that His Son would die for sin that those whom He chose might eventually become free..





He allowed man to sin, knowing the consequences. He had already provided for the redemption of His chosen. How does this support Arminianism?


But once they had sinned they lost that choice They now only had the will not to do certain things .But they did not have the will to be sinless.





But only until Adam sinned,


I cannot speak for John Calvin, but it is not impossible to me And YOU would call me a Calvinist, just as Paul was .



Their having freewill did not override God's sovereignty, but once they had lost it sin became their master.


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He can, but He did not. Man was no longer free not to sin. ALL sinned.




There is no evidence of this in Scripture. Man has never had free will since Adam's fall.



But it cannot restore free will Nor can it explain the scripture about God's choosing of His own satisfactorily.

The fact that you admit that Adam and Eve had freewill destroys Calvinism. Classical Arminianism agrees with the sinful nature part, where mankind was then slaves to sin. There's no problem there.

Its odd you question how God allowing man to sin supports Arminianism... because that IS Arminianism. God allows mankind to choose. That's part of the point of prevenient grace. It supports Arminianism in that freewill and God's soviergnty are solved. God is in control because he created such a world where his plan will happen while he foreknew, the free will of mankind (Adam and Eve, and all people who are liberatied by preveniant grace) and those who may have been slaves to sin. There's the possibility that God gives preveniant grace to all or part of the world.

It's besides the point that mankind lost their free will. The point is that God, who probably knows what he is doing, did allow mankind free will. And in those times that Adam and Eve had free will to reject God... God was sovereign. God was in control, while man (Adam and Eve, all of mankind) had freewill. Calvinism denies this, yet this did happened.

I'm glad it's not impossible for you. Maybe there are aspects about your understanding that are not Calvinistic.

Yes, Arminianism does explain God choosing of His own satisfactory. He chose a world where all of mankind, Adam and Eve, had freewill to choose. This was the perfect world. God was okay with mankind having freewill. This gives Arminianism far more credibility in regards to God wanting mankind to choose right or wrong.

 

[SovereignGrace]

The fact that you admit that Adam and Eve had freewill destroys Calvinism. Classical Arminianism agrees with the sinful nature part, where mankind was then slaves to sin. There's no problem there.

Its odd you question how God allowing man to sin supports Arminianism... because that IS Arminianism. God allows mankind to choose. That's part of the point of prevenient grace. It supports Arminianism in that freewill and God's soviergnty are solved. God is in control because he created such a world where his plan will happen while he foreknew, the free will of mankind (Adam and Eve, and all people who are liberatied by preveniant grace) and those who may have been slaves to sin. There's the possibility that God gives preveniant grace to all or part of the world.

It's besides the point that mankind lost their free will. The point is that God, who probably knows what he is doing, did allow mankind free will. And in those times that Adam and Eve had free will to reject God... God was sovereign. God was in control, while man (Adam and Eve, all of mankind) had freewill. Calvinism denies this, yet this did happened.

I'm glad it's not impossible for you. Maybe there are aspects about your understanding that are not Calvinistic.

Yes, Arminianism does explain God choosing of His own satisfactory. He chose a world where all of mankind, Adam and Eve, had freewill to choose. This was the perfect world. God was okay with mankind having freewill. This gives Arminianism far more credibility in regards to God wanting mankind to choose right or wrong.

From the 2nd London Baptist Confession of Faith, 1689...

Chapter 4: Of Creation

1._____ In the beginning it pleased God the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, for the manifestation of the glory of his eternal power, wisdom, and goodness, to create or make the world, and all things therein, whether visible or invisible, in the space of six days, and all very good.
( John 1:2, 3; Hebrews 1:2; Job 26:13; Romans 1:20; Colossians 1:16; Genesis 1:31 )

2._____ After God had made all other creatures, he created man, male and female, with reasonable and immortal souls, rendering them fit unto that life to God for which they were created; being made after the image of God, in knowledge, righteousness, and true holiness; having the law of God written in their hearts, and power to fulfil it, and yet under a possibility of transgressing, being left to the liberty of their own will, which was subject to change.
( Genesis 1:27; Genesis 2:7; Ecclesiastes 7:29; Genesis 1:26; Romans 2:14, 15; Genesis 3:6 )

3._____ Besides the law written in their hearts, they received a command not to eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, which whilst they kept, they were happy in their communion with God, and had dominion over the creatures.
( Genesis 2:17; Genesis 1:26, 28 )

 

[Calmador]

But we do not freely act. We are limited by our prejudice, upbringing, environment, social pressures, sinful inclinations , etc. We do not have the power to choose freely never to sin.

We have inherited the tendency to sin, and the tendency to be free not to do God's will. We have thus lost the ability freely to respond to God. This is what Scripture reveals.

God has not left it to us. He knows that no one would ever be saved. No man chooses God freely. Thus He chooses whom He will save.

No man chooses God freely? But, man does choose God freely. It was in God's plan to allow all mankind, Adam and Eve, to choose freely, to act freely. After the fall, classical Arminianism agrees with total depravity.

Even Calvinism states that man freely chooses... oddly determined by God.

According to Calvinism... God determines man to that which is good ... and man most freely chooses. There's a contradiction if you ever heard one.

 

[Calmador]

How exactly can He foreknow anything, if things are not certain to happen?

Or do you want to say that He is prepared for infinite number of alternatives? So the cross was just a plan B (or C or....)?

Things can be certain in that God merely sees what happen in the future and plans/manages it all. This doesn't mean God determines/causes everything. This could easily just mean God manages everything without deterministic/causal force. Considering God's power, God can easily be in control while allowing various factors such as the biblical fact that Adam and Eve had free will, and the arguably reasonable point that people received previniant grace.

No, I did not want to say he is prepared for an infinite number of alternatives. I think he knows the infinite amount of alternatives and how any of us would react... free or slave. In this knowledge, foreknowledge, he has created the universe and string of free or slave reactions he wanted to see happen.

Proverbs 16:9 In their hearts humans plan their course, but the LORD establishes their steps.

God makes things certain. I suppose I'm open to him having an infinite amount of alternative plans. An all powerful God can plan ahead as such and His will and him being in control still be intact. However, I was saying he had only one plan.

 

[Calmador]

I'd gather from this threads OP and its arguments that we now have a "god" who is learning (Open Theism) and, what is going on in the world is really not in His control, but is only one of billions of scenarios that could have taken place (Molinism).

Yes, I'm aware, the OP says God is in control (because of things outside His person that He views). So, God is reactive not proactive (in which case His sovereignty takes a hit).

It's all a logical fallacy, circular reasoning and probably category error as well. All this means is there are so many problems happening in the OP position and argumentation it's like whack-a-mole.

No, I NEVER said that nor do I see how you can "gather" that I think God is learning.

One of the things I always expect from Calvinists is how often they think I'm saying something that I'm not saying. Universalism.. Open thiesim... man controls God...(Sigh)

God is not reactive because He chose to make the world He wanted. He did not choose to create the world based off our actions. He chose to make the world He wanted because that's what He wanted.

As I stated above... you are the one seeing the problems that I never was pushing for. You imply the problems.

 

[Grandpa]

It doesn't look like free will to me.


Tell a child that they can play with everything in the room except your sunglasses. They must not touch your sunglasses. Then, go take care of something outside that room for a few minutes.

You could pretty much start the stopwatch for a countdown of the certainty of what will happen next.


What is really intriguing to me is that GOD said it. But they disobeyed anyway.


Its a genius plan if you can step back and look at it. People tend to not want what they already have. They want what they don't have or can't have. So Gods plan was to make it so people didn't have Himself so they in turn would want Him and understand the consequence of not having Him.


The real question to ask is "Did Adam and Eve surprise God in the garden by eating of the TOK"? No, of course not. God could have put an angel or several angels around it to guard it from them. But He didn't. Because God has a Plan.

 

[preacher4truth]

No, I NEVER said that nor do I see how you can "gather" that I think God is learning.

You really just don't know what you're implying in your OP then, or even your own position. Keep studying bro.

 

[valiant]

The fact that you admit that Adam and Eve had freewill destroys Calvinism.

Well if that were true it wouldn't worry me. But in fact it does not. God knew that man would sin. It was only a question of time.

Classical Arminianism agrees with the sinful nature part, where mankind was then slaves to sin. There's no problem there.

But it ignores the fact of God's sovereignty. Given the fact that a slave to sin could not repent, it was crucial.

Its odd you question how God allowing man to sin supports Arminianism... because that IS Arminianism.

It is a FACT. It doesn't support either side.

God allows mankind to choose.

NO since man sinned he could no longer choose.

That's part of the point of prevenient grace. It supports Arminianism in that freewill and God's soviergnty are solved.

But the Bible does not support prevenient grace. In fact it never speaks of freewill. Man is bound by sin. He needs to be delivered from it. And God alone can do it.

God is in control because he created such a world where his plan will happen while he foreknew, the free will of mankind

He never mentions the free will of mankind. That was lost at the fall.

(Adam and Eve, and all people who are liberatied by preveniant grace) and those who may have been slaves to sin. T

There is no Bible evidence of prevenient grace. It is a cop out. Paul says He has mercy on whom He will, and whom He will He hardens,

there's the possibility that God gives preveniant grace to all or part of the world

But never mentions it? LOL

It's besides the point that mankind lost their free will.

Mankind never had free will. Adam lost it.

The point is that God, who probably knows what he is doing, did allow mankind free will.

Show me one verse that says mankind has freewill.

And in those times that Adam and Eve had free will to reject God... God was sovereign.

well?

God was in control, while man (Adam and Eve, all of mankind) had freewill. Calvinism denies this, yet this did happen.

He could have been, but He wasn't. All mankind never had free will.

I don't care if Calvin denies it or not. God is always sovereign. But mankind never had free will as the Bible makes clear,.

I'm glad it's not impossible for you. Maybe there are aspects about your understanding that are not Calvinistic.

I wouldn't know. LOL. I don't follow Calvin or anyone else. I follow the Scriptures.

Yes, Arminianism does explain God choosing of His own satisfactory.

????

He chose a world where all of mankind, Adam and Eve, had freewill to choose.

Just Adam and Eve, until they fell. The rest of mankind never had freewill.

This was the perfect world. God was okay with mankind having freewill.

But they didn't.

This gives Arminianism far more credibility in regards to God wanting mankind to choose right or wrong.

well it might have done if it were true.. However, whilst mankind could choose wrong, they could never choose right for any length of time. It required God's sovereignty to remedy the situation,

 

[valiant]

No man chooses God freely? But, man does choose God freely.

where is Scripture does it say that? Fallen man will never choose God, he is at enmity with God

It was in God's plan to allow all mankind, Adam and Eve, to choose freely, to act freely.

Scripture?

After the fall, classical Arminianism agrees with total depravity.

Which makes it impossible for man to chose God.

Even Calvinism states that man freely chooses... oddly determined by God.

well Calvinism is wrong then. Man chooses God because God has first chosen man.

According to Calvinism... God determines man to that which is good ... and man most freely chooses. There's a contradiction if you ever heard one.

Man has no free choice. His choice is made on the basis of what he is.

 

[Gabriel2020]

Every soul as a created being has free will, it is a package deal, not optional. even to this day. Man says I will ,God says I will. We are made in his image, and his likeness, so all the tools God have,we have also, but on a smaller scale.

 

[Gabriel2020]

Every soul as a created being has free will, it is a package deal, not optional. even to this day. Man says I will ,God says I will. We are made in his image, and his likeness, so all the tools God have,we have also, but on a smaller scale.even before the fall Eve said I will.

 

[valiant]

Every soul as a created being has free will, it is a package deal, not optional. even to this day. Man says I will ,God says I will. We are made in his image, and his likeness, so all the tools God have,we have also, but on a smaller scale.

is that the angel Gabriel speaking, or a mortal man who is clearly wrong? Every soul has a tainted will. That is not free. Man is not God.

Show me it in Scripture LOL I'm waiting.

 

[Gabriel2020]

Will is to do what one sets their mind out to do. right or wrong. show me tainted will in the bible, i'm waiting. Man's will is tainted if you must say so, as of now yes