The Rapture

[valiant]

IF THEY WERE BORN AGAIN CHRISTIANS, yes those went to heaven, but THAT IS NOT WHAT I WAS TALKING ABOUT. There is NO EVENT IN HISTORY that compares to MASS BEHEADINGS the real Antichrist will ORDER.4

There were 'mass beheadings' in the Roman Empire.


M

y understanding is this: After we leave to go to the Wedding of the Lamb in Heaven; every single person who then becomes a genuine Believer in Jesus Christ, will ultimately become a beheaded martyr for Jesus Christ, as ORDERED BY THE DICTATOR WE CALL THE FINAL FORM OF ANTICHRIST.

It will be too late. We will be with Christ.

WHO is a DICTATOR reigning over the Revived Roman Empire, whom SATAN HIMSELF INTERS AND POSSESSES.

Pure speculation

Those martyred saints are what we call the Tribulation Saints, the same ones who appear in Heaven coming out from under the ALTAR.

The martyred church from 1st century AD onwards.

WHY THE ALTAR? Because it was manditory for the High Priest to pour out the blood of the Sacrifice around the Base of the Altar. THEREFORE that is where Jesus Christ poured out His sacrificial blood in Heaven, thus the Beheaded Tribulation Saints are literally coming through the Blood of Jesus Christ into Heaven.

well we can agree on that. But they commenced in 1st century AD

 

[valiant]

Originally Posted by serpentdove

No one is arguing that you are going in the rapture (1 Thess. 4:16, 17).

AH,,,but Satan and his followers do not want you to think that..... or even read those verses that way..... It is all symbolic these days or PC>

ALL Christians alive at Christ's coming will be raptured.

 

[Bladerunner]

Hey SP Read 2Thess 2 and it will tell you that the rapture cannot occur until after the revealing of the Antichrist, the Antichrist reigns during the tribulation.

It always amazes me how you can skip around word s, sentences and phrases and make they say what you want them to say. To me 2 thes 2:2-3..."2 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,"


Paul does not give a time he is to be here.....He is speaking general terms. Yes, when the 2nd Advent happens, the Angels will pull all saints from the four corners of heaven.


2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

"that YE" ...Paul talking to the Thessiloeans simple as that.

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;


For that Day shall COME....... It was not at that time...it is in the future......

"The there will come a falling away" and we see that today.... A falling away of the Churches , the Apostasy.

"that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;" The Man is singular thus alludes to the Anti-Christ.


I see nothing above telling me that the Rapture happens after the Anti-christ...In fact just the opposite. In 1 thes 4:14-18..... Tells of the Rapture long before in the 2nd letter the mention of the Antichrist happens.

So-Sad

 

[Bladerunner]

Which raptured church? Rev 4-5 give a picture of Heaven (and more) in John's time prior to the opening of the seven seals. No raptured church there. All are heavenly beings except 5.13-14.

The martyred saints in chapter 6 portray the martyred saints of all centuries crying to God for justice. They are said to be under the altar because they rest in the shed blood of Jesus, prior to resurrection.



Something on which we can agree. They join the raptured saints on the Last Day.

Where does it mention Jerusalem? You make up fairy tales. They were 'worldwide' martyrs commencing in 1st century.



ALL Christians alive at the end will be raptured.



By whom?



And then continued on.

By the way Daniel's 70th week followed on from the 69th week. The sixth seal refers to the second coming.



Very good. You can count. But He was actually cut off in the middle of the seventieth week.



The Messiah 'confirmed covenant' with many for one 'week'. This was when He preached in Galilee, Judea and Perea, confirming the old covenant with the Jews,. But in the midst of the week He was cut off, causing the sacrifices and oblations to ceasea s He had replaced them.



Hebrew requires that 'he' looks back to the nearest subject, in this case the One who was cut off..



It was with the Jews that He confirmed covenant. Why bring the church in?



Satan was restrained from that time on. We learn later it was by the restraining angel.

.

The restrainer was a resrraining angel. Neither the church nor the Holy Spirit were removed.




LOL you make it mean what you want. You admit you can't remove the Holy Spirit, so you compromise.




I presume you mean the Devil?



You tell me. You revel in it.



No not in the seventieth week. That is a myth.

The sixth seal introduces the second coming. The stars fell to earth, the sky vanished like a scroll. What could exist after that? And the world awaits the wrath of the Lamb.
The point of the following descriptions is that they can't hide from God's wrath.



You say it was a simple earthquake. I say it was the final judgment.

Ah---it is ok, only those left behind will have to worry about the wars and dying. So-SAD.

 

[VCO]

I think you should get out more and mix. The Pre Trib position may be the dominant view on this site and no doubt there have been attempts to debunk it. But most of the worlds church still believe in Post Trib. In fact the Pre Trib position is
pre dominant mainly in the US The Pre Trib view was invented by English theologian and Brethren cult leader John Darby
For that reason alone I wouldn't give it any credence.

Matthew 22:14 (YLT)
[SUP]14 [/SUP] for many are called, and few chosen.'


John 3:3-7 (HCSB)
[SUP]3 [/SUP] Jesus replied, “I assure you: Unless someone is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”
[SUP]4 [/SUP] “But how can anyone be born when he is old?” Nicodemus asked Him. “Can he enter his mother’s womb a second time and be born?”
[SUP]5 [/SUP] Jesus answered, “I assure you: Unless someone is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.
[SUP]6 [/SUP] Whatever is born of the flesh is flesh, and whatever is born of the Spirit is spirit.
[SUP]7 [/SUP] Do not be amazed that I told you that you must be born again.



Matthew 7:19-23 (HCSB)
[SUP]19 [/SUP] Every tree that doesn’t produce good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.
[SUP]20 [/SUP] So you’ll recognize them by their fruit.
[SUP]21 [/SUP] “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord!’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but ⌊only⌋ the one who does the will of My Father in heaven.
[SUP]22 [/SUP] On that day many will say to Me, ‘Lord, Lord, didn’t we prophesy in Your name, drive out demons in Your name, and do many miracles in Your name?’
[SUP]23 [/SUP] Then I will announce to them, ‘I never knew you! Depart from Me, you lawbreakers!’




Matthew 25:1-13 (HCSB)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] “Then the kingdom of heaven will be like 10 virgins who took their lamps
and went out to meet the groom.
[SUP]2 [/SUP] Five of them were foolish and five were sensible.
[SUP]3 [/SUP] When the foolish took their lamps, they didn’t take olive oil with them.
[SUP]4 [/SUP] But the sensible ones took oil in their flasks with their lamps.
[SUP]5 [/SUP] Since the groom was delayed, they all became drowsy and fell asleep.
[SUP]6 [/SUP] “In the middle of the night there was a shout:
‘Here’s the groom! Come out to meet him.’
[SUP]7 [/SUP] “Then all those virgins got up and trimmed their lamps.
[SUP]8 [/SUP] But the foolish ones said to the sensible ones, ‘Give us some of your oil, because our lamps are going out.’
[SUP]9 [/SUP] “The sensible ones answered, ‘No, there won’t be enough for us and for you. Go instead to those who sell, and buy oil for yourselves.’
[SUP]10 [/SUP] “When they had gone to buy some, the groom arrived. Then those who were ready went in with him to the wedding banquet, and the door was shut.
[SUP]11 [/SUP] “Later the rest of the virgins also came and said, ‘Master, master, open up for us!’
[SUP]12 [/SUP]“But he replied, ‘I assure you:I do not know you!’
[SUP]13 [/SUP] “Therefore be alert*, because you don’t know either the day or the hour.

*STARTING FROM THAT MOMENT ON, RULING OUT EVERYTHING, EXCEPT
A PRE-TRIBULATION "CALLING OUT OF THE BRIDE", ALL BORN AGAIN CHRISTIANS.

 

[tanakh]

Tanakh...everyone has their own opinion...i have never based my faith on outside sources. Of course, in the post-modern world that is the trend. Charismatic and Pentecostal views are abounding everywhere. The Word of God has not changed...The Bible has or at least all those Versons beyond the KJV have.. With all those budding theologist out there, they have decided that just about everyone needs a Bible version of their own...

Oh, they for the most part say the same thing. Yet, when only one word is different than those that God allowed to be printed, changes the Bible into just another novel. Another book of good and bad, life and death.

You see, God is in control,,,, IN CONTROL,,,,,There is no Global warming that was caused by mankind yet man's arrogance is running high these days. There are no Aliens from other worlds,,,,,only Fallen Angels, who are part of Satans group, indoctrinating those who will listen and those who will rejoice at the coming of the Ancient alien race that placed us here. The Word of GOD is what HE allowed to be inspired or written. Have you ever ask yourself why all the biblical changes in today society? Its called PC..... Even the Bible has been affected by this little two word phrase. To make someone feel good about themselves, about their lifestyles, about their eternity, etc. etc.....

There are those out there that take the Bible apart verse by verse and read into each verse what they want it to say. The Book of Revelation is a great example. To most it is only symbolism. When one has a vision,. the interpretation of that vision is anybody's guess. Post-tribers remove the 1000 years of Jesus' physical rule here on earth as a Spiritual event that we are in now. How they got to this point, I do not know... BUT by removing the millennium, one can discount Daniel and His prophecies,,,One can discount the almost 800 prophcies within the Book of Revelation itself. None of the Tribulations will happen because they were in the past (70AD), Israel is forsaken by GOD himself who turned his attention to the Church. I presume they are talking about the EMERGING Church where even tribes who have never heard the Word of God or saw a Bible are standing on HOLY GROUND (thus saved) because God was once there.

Jesus tells us in Mat 24:21-22....,. A book that everybody likes to quote from and distort freely, tells us that there will be a great tribulation (which most place in the Past). Continuing in verse 22 HE tells us that unless the days were shortened, there would be no life left on earth. OH, they cry to get this verse out of the Bible and cannot, so they just ignore verse 22....... WHY????? because how could the Roman Army destroy all life on earth in 70 AD????? The answer is they could not.... BUT today we could very easily kill everyone on earth with nuclear weapons.

Yes, my friend it is getting bad out there and it appears you have been caught-up in it as well. It is so-sad. For when the Rapture happens, the Nuclear bombs start dropping, killing millions with hunger & pestilence taking their fair share on human bodies, for these who die, there is no hope of Salvation. The sadist thing is,,,, for those who are all about everything but the WORD of GOD, will have only themselves to blame. Because unlike the 70 AD destruction of Jerusalem and God's temple, The death toll of Human life will be WORLD WIDE......

I pray each day, that you(Tanakh) and the others see through the smoke and wrap yourselves around the Truth of Jesus Christ.

However, the denials I hear on this forum leads those who preach those denials, away from the Word of GOD and places them in the path of destruction and eternal torment. It is So-Sad!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Tankh, I hope you have a blessed day.

Blade

How much of your post has anything to do with believing when the rapture happens? Not a lot by reading it. One glaring mistake I see is that you obviously dont know what post tribulationalist believe, at least not those I know or read about.
You seem to confuse them with Post Millennium believers, Amillenium believers or Preterists. To set the record straight at least as far as my beliefs are concerned. I believe the Rapture coincides with Christs second coming with the spirits of departed saints and Angels We meet Christ in the air and escort him back to the mount of Olives and we defeat the Antichrist and his armies at Armageddon. The Millennium starts then. This was the position of most believers up until the Mid 19th Century and still is by most even now.

 

[Bladerunner]

IF THEY WERE BORN AGAIN CHRISTIANS, yes those went to heaven, but THAT IS NOT WHAT I WAS TALKING ABOUT. There is NO EVENT IN HISTORY that compares to MASS BEHEADINGS the real Antichrist will ORDER. My understanding is this: After we leave to go to the Wedding of the Lamb in Heaven; every single person who then becomes a genuine Believer in Jesus Christ, will ultimately become a beheaded martyr for Jesus Christ, as ORDERED BY THE DICTATOR WE CALL THE FINAL FORM OF ANTICHRIST. WHO is a DICTATOR reigning over the Revived Roman Empire, whom SATAN HIMSELF INTERS AND POSSESSES.

I guess I read you post wrong or something..... I agree with all above.


Those martyred saints are what we call the Tribulation Saints, the same ones who appear in Heaven coming out from under the ALTAR. WHY THE ALTAR? Because it was manditory for the High Priest to pour out the blood of the Sacrifice around the Base of the Altar. THEREFORE that is where Jesus Christ poured out His sacrificial blood in Heaven, thus the Beheaded Tribulation Saints are literally coming through the Blood of Jesus Christ into Heaven.

AH,,,,,," thus the Beheaded Tribulation Saints are literally coming through the Blood of Jesus Christ into Heaven" Yes, I could see your point here.... It does not say anything about that but the semantics are right.

The real difference between you and myself is the name of the Saints. you can look at rev 6:9-12.....These are NOT the tribulation Saints as Daniel's 70th week (7 year tribulations) has not yet begun..... Rem the Tribulations do not immediately start after the Rapture.... There has to be time enough for the Anti-Christ to come to power in order "to confirm the covenant between many".. Also during this Gap there is the emergence of the one world religion (RCC) where the Harlot (RCC) rides the beast. In tandem they both rise to power, one government and the other religious until the 2nd half of the tribulations.

Having said that, the Tribulation Saints, those that have palm leaves in their hands, are gathered by the Lord during the tribulations itself.. Rev 7:9-14..... we are told they are the ones coming out of the great tribulations.
Keep in mind that in Rev 6:9-12,,, Jesus tells the saints under the Altar that they will have "to await their fellow servants and Brethren "...So there is at least two types maybe three types of Saints appearing after the Raptured of the Chruch.

But for the mere fact that John sees the Saints in Rev. 6:9-12.... as those "......that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:", I consider them to be Martyred Saints. This is not saying that the other Saints are not also slain for the Word of GOD, but rather I am placing a label on them. The other Saints in Rev. 7:9-14 already have a name "Great tribulation Saints"



Blade

 

[VCO]

There were 'mass beheadings' in the Roman Empire.


M

It will be too late. We will be with Christ.



Pure speculation



The martyred church from 1st century AD onwards.



well we can agree on that. But they commenced in 1st century AD

John wrote the prophecy of the future beheadings, LONG AFTER the beheadings of ROMAN CITIZENS who became Christians. PLUS, NEVER was it on the extreme scale of the what the ANTICHRIST will. You can live with your imaginary explanations if you want, I WILL LIVE WITH WHAT THE BIBLE SAYS LITERALLY.

 

[Bladerunner]

there will never be one. you need to learn how scripture uses language.



'The world' in the New Testament means the roman world. See Rom 1.8.

The red horse has marched since 1st century as Jesus said.



From the time when John wrote and the seals were opened. It started when Jesus opened the first seal. Not particularly in 70 ad.



and it won't ever be. But there was plenty of warfare going on. LOL you love you worldwide warfare.,




So you're admitting now to local wars and famine.? Actually they were more than local. Rome and her enemies covered wide area.,



But they owned the entire Roman world.





'There will be wars and rumours of wars. This was in 1st century AD and was the red horseman riding..



Wars will continue to the end. The horseman continues to ride. It is a prophecy through the centuries,

And there is no mention of worldwide You read it into it. And the famines are the famines prophesied by Jesus.




No it says peace from the earth not that the whole world will be at war. But I realise you are thirsty for blood.

No worldwide famine is mentioned, just famines were the black rider goes..



So there were areas where there was famine, pestilence and war? Well Jesus prophesied all three. So its what we would expect. What has 70 ad got to do with it?.

This horseman marched long ago as Jesus forecast. It is continuing history. And there is no mention of a covenant Israel to rebuild the Temple. Dream on,



That is now past history.




God was prophesying their doom at the exile. He was interested in history not just in 'the end'.




LOL Daniel and is seventieth week. He must be turning in his grave. at the way its misused. No temple will be rebuilt that is acceptable to God. The sacrifices ceased in 70 ad, never to recommence..



LOL

The four horsemen began their march a long time ago. There have been massive war and famines regularly through out history.



Actually very doubtful,



well?

It seems that we have a definition problem of Biblical proportions. You say the world at that time only consisted of the territory the Roman empire was controlling........The Bible considers the word Earth, used 987 times over 906 verses, the whole earth (as opposed to a part), earth (as opposed to heaven), earth (inhabitants).

All the apostles knew there were territories that were not controlled by Rome... Yes, Paul told them to preach to the whole world...Yes, the message is the same today..... If they had taught the Whole World then there would be no evangelizing today.

I think you are using this as a crutch that the Apostles consider the World as the Roman empire....Kinda of Short sighted on their part... or may not because they traveled into other countries not controlled by ROME so they nnew there was a world(earth) out side of the Roman Empire.

If you had to admit the world was the same earth in that verse, then you would have no argument and you beliefs would start unraveling.

I think you are afraid to admit it....... Afraid to change.....>Don't be afraid.....Just talk to Jesus,,,He will help !! Amen..

Have a good day

Blade

 

[Bladerunner]

ALL Christians alive at Christ's coming will be raptured.

What about the DEAD??????? where do they fit into you sorted Gospel

 

[valiant]

Ah---it is ok, only those left behind will have to worry about the wars and dying. So-SAD.

So THAT's what you're worried about LOL so sad!

 

[valiant]

What about the DEAD??????? where do they fit into you sorted Gospel

They rise at the same time as the living saints are raptured. And so we will ever be with the Lord in His glory.

And it isn't MY Gospel, its Paul's. He knew nothing of a Great Tribulation at the end either.

 

[valiant]

It seems that we have a definition problem of Biblical proportions.

Yes YOU have LOL

You say the world at that time only consisted of the territory the Roman empire was controlling...

No. And their foes whom they fought with.

.....The Bible considers the word Earth, used 987 times over 906 verses, the whole earth (as opposed to a part), earth (as opposed to heaven), earth (inhabitants).

The 'earth' as they knew it. They did not speculate outside that.

All the apostles knew there were territories that were not controlled by Rome... Yes, Paul told them to preach to the whole world...Yes, the message is the same today..... If they had taught the Whole World then there would be no evangelizing today.

Paul said to the Romans, 'your faith is proclaimed in ALL the world'.(Rom 1.8) What do you think he meant by that?

I think you are using this as a crutch that the Apostles consider the World as the Roman empire...

No crutch lol. But Paul meant the Roman Empire and its surrounds..

Kinda of Short sighted on their part...

well he does hint at being short sighted LOL Bu I don't think he meant that.

or may not because they traveled into other countries not controlled by ROME so they nnew there was a world(earth) out side of the Roman Empire.

Yep 'and its surrounds.'

If you had to admit the world was the same earth in that verse, then you would have no argument and you beliefs would start unraveling.

now you're gibbering LOL

I think you are afraid to admit it....... Afraid to change.....>Don't be afraid.....Just talk to Jesus,,,He will help !! Amen..

Well I talked to the Holy Spirit when I was a pretrib pre- mill (led astray at a young age by Scofield) and He soon showed me the truth

 

[serpentdove]

Hey SP Read 2Thess 2 and it will tell you that the rapture cannot occur until after the revealing of the Antichrist...

Got that backwards.

 

[valiant]

John wrote the prophecy of the future beheadings, LONG AFTER the beheadings of ROMAN CITIZENS who became Christians. PLUS, NEVER was it on the extreme scale of the what the ANTICHRIST will. You can live with your imaginary explanations if you want, I WILL LIVE WITH WHAT THE BIBLE SAYS LITERALLY.

you mean with what you THINK the Bible says

 

[tanakh]

Bladerunner

I meant to ask about this Ancient Alien race you seem to think put us all here according to you reply to my post. Its quite a revelation as I was always taught that God did it.

From re- reading your reply it appears to confirm my belief and long held suspicion that Pre Tribbers believe that they alone are the truly saved few. This again runs true to John Darbys exclusive Brethren beliefs and the mark of every other cult one could mention. It would make a change for a Pre Tribber to be honest and actually spell it out for a change. You came close to it but not quite.

 

[valiant]

AH,,,,,," thus the Beheaded Tribulation Saints are literally coming through the Blood of Jesus Christ into Heaven" Yes, I could see your point here.... It does not say anything about that but the semantics are right.

Make it ALL the saints throughout the centuries and I would agree

The real difference between you and myself is the name of the Saints. you can look at rev 6:9-12.....These are NOT the tribulation Saints as Daniel's 70th week (7 year tribulations) has not yet begun.

Daniels 70th week passed long ago.

.... Rem the Tribulations do not immediately start after the Rapture..

No nothing starts after the Rapture. We go to be with the Lord, that is, all who are His..

.. There has to be time enough for the Anti-Christ to come to power in order "to confirm the covenant between many

The One Who confirmed covenant with the many was Jesus. In Daniel the covenant is the one with God. Others are called alliances.

. Also during this Gap there is the emergence of the one world religion (RCC) where the Harlot (RCC) rides the beast. In tandem they both rise to power, one government and the other religious until the 2nd half of the tribulations.

There isn't one world religion. And there isn't a great tribulation. The latter ends when the Jews cease being persecuted. The former is part of your delusion. Haven't you asked yourself who caused Great Babylon to fall? 17.16-18 gives the answer. So Great Babylon is at war with the beast vying for the kings of the earth. Haven't you asked yourself why the nations gathered? They weren't originally expecting the Lamb and His forces. They originally gathered to fight each other (verses 19.17-19). But when the Lamb appeared they joined forces against Him.

Having said that, the Tribulation Saints, those that have palm leaves in their hands, are gathered by the Lord during the tribulations itself.. Rev 7:9-14.....

These are not tribulation saints in the sense of the great tribulation of Matthew, for that was tribulation on the Jews. They have 'come out of the great tribulation' mentioned in Rev 2.22.

we are told they are the ones coming out of the great tribulations.

No, singular. The article refers back to 2.22. (this is the only reference to great tribulation that has the article. Thus referring back).

Keep in mind that in Rev 6:9-12,,, Jesus tells the saints under the Altar that they will have "to await their fellow servants and Brethren "...So there is at least two types maybe three types of Saints appearing after the Raptured of the Chruch.

LOL they are all references to Christians.

But for the mere fact that John sees the Saints in Rev. 6:9-12.... as those "......that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:", I consider them to be Martyred Saints. This is not saying that the other Saints are not also slain for the Word of GOD, but rather I am placing a label on them. The other Saints in Rev. 7:9-14 already have a name "Great tribulation Saints"

You do love splitting up the people of God LOL

 

[Muzungu256]

aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! i hate how complicated dispensational theology can be............... you got the old testament saints you got the church you got the tribulation saints you got 3 raptures many resurrections separate kingdoms and many gospels............ insane!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[JIMBO43]

I came across a belief on my searches... appaently wheve all missed the boat and theres been six raptures upto now.... elisha enoch philip and others.....

My guess John hagee as finaly lost it or has he ?

 

[valiant]

I came across a belief on my searches... appaently wheve all missed the boat and theres been six raptures upto now.... elisha enoch philip and others.....

My guess John hagee as finaly lost it or has he ?

Philip's was very brief LOL