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Come to think of it this could be where the real issue is between our views.
You seem to dismiss the literal meaning for a spiritual but only for this one it seems.
I take both the literal and spiritual as they are one in Gods law.
but these two ways of reading the law will come as we can see to two very different views.
That being said, as far as I can see the major problem with your point is it is inconsistent internally.
You seem to dismiss the literal meaning for a spiritual but only for this one it seems.
I take both the literal and spiritual as they are one in Gods law.
but these two ways of reading the law will come as we can see to two very different views.
That being said, as far as I can see the major problem with your point is it is inconsistent internally.
Matthew 5 gives us the concept.
The concept that we WANT to keep commandments but we don't have the ability. We can't cause the fruit of the Holy Spirit to grow within ourselves. Only God can cause the fruit of the Holy Spirit to grow in us, which is why we are His Workmanship and why we can do nothing without Him.
Romans 3:19 [FONT="]Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
[/FONT]Galatians 5:1 [FONT="]Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.
[/FONT]Romans 6:14 [FONT="]For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
[/FONT]The best way to describe this is in relation to Salvation. We would rather do the works of Salvation than rely on someone else to save us. We would rather do the works of the law to be righteous than have someone else declare our righteousness based on their work and not our own.
But that's not the way it works according to God. God gives us Salvation. And at the same time doesn't allow anyone to achieve it on their own.
God gives us Righteousness. And at the same time doesn't allow us to achieve it on our own.
We rely on God for all of our blessings. We don't expect there will be 'extra' blessings because we have achieved them.
2 Corinthians 3:5-6
[FONT="]5 Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God;[/FONT]
[FONT="]6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
[/FONT]
The concept that we WANT to keep commandments but we don't have the ability. We can't cause the fruit of the Holy Spirit to grow within ourselves. Only God can cause the fruit of the Holy Spirit to grow in us, which is why we are His Workmanship and why we can do nothing without Him.
Romans 3:19 [FONT="]Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
[/FONT]Galatians 5:1 [FONT="]Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.
[/FONT]Romans 6:14 [FONT="]For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
[/FONT]The best way to describe this is in relation to Salvation. We would rather do the works of Salvation than rely on someone else to save us. We would rather do the works of the law to be righteous than have someone else declare our righteousness based on their work and not our own.
But that's not the way it works according to God. God gives us Salvation. And at the same time doesn't allow anyone to achieve it on their own.
God gives us Righteousness. And at the same time doesn't allow us to achieve it on our own.
We rely on God for all of our blessings. We don't expect there will be 'extra' blessings because we have achieved them.
2 Corinthians 3:5-6
[FONT="]5 Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God;[/FONT]
[FONT="]6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
[/FONT]
Hi Grandpa, sorry for the late reply. I think we have established already that salvation is a gift in Jesus. I think we have already established that our works are useless and have no merit in any way towards salvation or any other thing.
For me the issue seems to have nothing to do with works etc. Its clear that both of us are on the same page at least as far as works not applying to salvation.
The issue seems to be more connected to how we read or apply scripture. And I have given this some thought concerning what we have discussed so far. We concur on a great many things but this one thing, The Sabbath we differ.
We both believe righteousness is a gift of God in Christ. We both believe the lives of a believer are a result of the working of God in us both to will and to do of his good pleasure. We both believe the law was given to show us our sin and to make us guilty. WE both believe the purpose of the the law was to lead us to Christ to be delivered from sin and the law. WE both believe that Salvation is found in what Jesus has done and is doing on our behalf. our part is to believe and accept his works on our behalf. The Just shall live by faith.
With all this agreeing it becomes confusing about why we disagree on the Sabbath. But in my thoughts I have come to see a subtle but major difference in how we read scripture.
My way of reading it is simple, I believe it means what it says. So when I read about Gen 2 I take it as it reads in its simplicity. Now obviously context is important, But again Gen 2 context is clear and simple there is no hint of some secret spiritual meaning that suddenly makes it mean something it does not say. And when one does find spiritual meanings or depth in something it does not change the text still it rather adds to the text.
For example, Circumcision is commandeered in the bible. So why don't I keep that? Simple there are simple straight
forward texts that show it is no longer in effect. They don't hint or loosely suggest they are plain and pointed texts.
There are no such texts concerning the 7th day Sabbath. Now note I said 7th day Sabbath for a reason. Because the scriptures simply an plainly teach that there are other Sabbath days given in the law of Moses that originated in the Law of Moses with the sacrificial system. There are texts that speak of these Sabbath shadows of the cross. This method allows all texts to be taken as they read without using one text to nullify another and take away its simplicity.
hopefully that illustrates my point clearly enough.
As yet I have not met a single person who can show any scripture that definitively points to the 7th day Sabbath without question and clearly shows it has changed or been done away with in any way.
I have seen many use scriptures that are clearly about sacrificial Sabbaths Col 2. which were a shadow of Christ and used them on the 7th day Sabbath thus changing the text in Gen to mean something it never meant.
I have seen many try to use obscure texts like Romans 14 which talks of days yet they have no way of directly connecting it to the 7th day Sabbath but rather assumption as they can not prove it has anything to do with it.
I have seen people take scriptures that are talking about the 7th day Sabbath as a finished work from the foundation of the world and try to say its saying its done away with when it says no such thing. Heb 4.
But when it comes down to it there is nothing. Gen 2 means exactly what it says, no more no less.
The reason I am not convinced by the arguments given by others is they fail to acknowledge these points or deal with them.
For me the issue seems to have nothing to do with works etc. Its clear that both of us are on the same page at least as far as works not applying to salvation.
The issue seems to be more connected to how we read or apply scripture. And I have given this some thought concerning what we have discussed so far. We concur on a great many things but this one thing, The Sabbath we differ.
We both believe righteousness is a gift of God in Christ. We both believe the lives of a believer are a result of the working of God in us both to will and to do of his good pleasure. We both believe the law was given to show us our sin and to make us guilty. WE both believe the purpose of the the law was to lead us to Christ to be delivered from sin and the law. WE both believe that Salvation is found in what Jesus has done and is doing on our behalf. our part is to believe and accept his works on our behalf. The Just shall live by faith.
With all this agreeing it becomes confusing about why we disagree on the Sabbath. But in my thoughts I have come to see a subtle but major difference in how we read scripture.
My way of reading it is simple, I believe it means what it says. So when I read about Gen 2 I take it as it reads in its simplicity. Now obviously context is important, But again Gen 2 context is clear and simple there is no hint of some secret spiritual meaning that suddenly makes it mean something it does not say. And when one does find spiritual meanings or depth in something it does not change the text still it rather adds to the text.
For example, Circumcision is commandeered in the bible. So why don't I keep that? Simple there are simple straight
forward texts that show it is no longer in effect. They don't hint or loosely suggest they are plain and pointed texts.
There are no such texts concerning the 7th day Sabbath. Now note I said 7th day Sabbath for a reason. Because the scriptures simply an plainly teach that there are other Sabbath days given in the law of Moses that originated in the Law of Moses with the sacrificial system. There are texts that speak of these Sabbath shadows of the cross. This method allows all texts to be taken as they read without using one text to nullify another and take away its simplicity.
hopefully that illustrates my point clearly enough.
As yet I have not met a single person who can show any scripture that definitively points to the 7th day Sabbath without question and clearly shows it has changed or been done away with in any way.
I have seen many use scriptures that are clearly about sacrificial Sabbaths Col 2. which were a shadow of Christ and used them on the 7th day Sabbath thus changing the text in Gen to mean something it never meant.
I have seen many try to use obscure texts like Romans 14 which talks of days yet they have no way of directly connecting it to the 7th day Sabbath but rather assumption as they can not prove it has anything to do with it.
I have seen people take scriptures that are talking about the 7th day Sabbath as a finished work from the foundation of the world and try to say its saying its done away with when it says no such thing. Heb 4.
But when it comes down to it there is nothing. Gen 2 means exactly what it says, no more no less.
The reason I am not convinced by the arguments given by others is they fail to acknowledge these points or deal with them.
Acts 15:10 [FONT="]Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?[/FONT]
We can agree that is the 10 commandments, right?
Acts 15:28-29
[FONT="]28 For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;[/FONT]
[FONT="]29 That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.
No burden from the Holy Ghost to observe a saturday sabbath.
And conversely, it doesn't say anywhere in Genesis 2 that you are to observe a saturday sabbath because God has ordered you to.
And yet you still do.
In fact, is there a single verse in the NT that requires Christians to observe a continuous saturday sabbath?
[/FONT]
We can agree that is the 10 commandments, right?
Acts 15:28-29
[FONT="]28 For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;[/FONT]
[FONT="]29 That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.
No burden from the Holy Ghost to observe a saturday sabbath.
And conversely, it doesn't say anywhere in Genesis 2 that you are to observe a saturday sabbath because God has ordered you to.
And yet you still do.
In fact, is there a single verse in the NT that requires Christians to observe a continuous saturday sabbath?
[/FONT]
I suppose in light of what I said above, Can you prove that this text does not mean what it says:
Gen 2:1 Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.
Gen 2:2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.
Gen 2:3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.
Gen 2:1 Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.
Gen 2:2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.
Gen 2:3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.
Gen 2 is before the law of Moses, So arguing the law of Moses is missing the point.
As far as your argument on the Sabbath not being mentioned. Where is it we are instructed?
2Ti 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
2Ti 3:17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.
Scripture of course is here referring to the Old Testament as there was no new testament. However we do today have the new testament which also helps, but still "all" scripture.
That being said it is mentioned in the new and you would see it clearly if you study the Old.
As far as your argument on the Sabbath not being mentioned. Where is it we are instructed?
2Ti 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
2Ti 3:17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.
Scripture of course is here referring to the Old Testament as there was no new testament. However we do today have the new testament which also helps, but still "all" scripture.
That being said it is mentioned in the new and you would see it clearly if you study the Old.
But thinking again the real issue here is the Sabbath so we need to deal with that, lets not get distracted, all you have done here is exactly what I said above, you used an obscure passage in regards to the Sabbath. The Passage is clear but not in regards to the Sabbath as it is not specifically dealing with the Sabbath.
And as said Gen 2 is before the law of Moses, so arguing that the law of Moses is no longer when we both agree with that is unhelpful.
And as said Gen 2 is before the law of Moses, so arguing that the law of Moses is no longer when we both agree with that is unhelpful.
Genesis 2 doesn't tell you to observe a continuous saturday sabbath.
Where do you get the idea to observe a continuous saturday sabbath? From the law of Moses.
So let's get this out of the way. There are no NT scriptures commanding Christians to observe a saturday sabbath.
Christians are something new. They are not Jews following the law.
But you find OT scriptures that have convinced you to follow the law. Even though Galatians especially and most of the rest of the Epistles tells Christians that is not the way.
How come following the law is not the way? How come Christians don't follow the customs of the Jews?
Colossians 2:11-17
[FONT="]11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:[/FONT]
[FONT="]12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.[/FONT]
[FONT="]13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;[/FONT]
[FONT="]14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;[/FONT]
[FONT="]15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.[/FONT]
[FONT="]16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:[/FONT]
[FONT="]17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.
Look at that. Christians are circumcised, spiritually. That's pretty interesting. And yet the Christians don't observe the carnal commandment. When did that change?
Hebrews 7:12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.
Hebrews 7:16-19
[/FONT]
[FONT="]16 Who is made, not after the law of a carnal commandment, but after the power of an endless life.[/FONT]
[FONT="]17 For he testifieth, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.[/FONT]
[FONT="]18 For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof.[/FONT]
[FONT="]19 For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God.
Weird that I am "spiritualizing" the law and not following a literal carnal commandment. Or is it weird that a Christian would look back to the OT law to follow it in their own understanding after coming to Christ?
[/FONT]
Where do you get the idea to observe a continuous saturday sabbath? From the law of Moses.
So let's get this out of the way. There are no NT scriptures commanding Christians to observe a saturday sabbath.
Christians are something new. They are not Jews following the law.
But you find OT scriptures that have convinced you to follow the law. Even though Galatians especially and most of the rest of the Epistles tells Christians that is not the way.
How come following the law is not the way? How come Christians don't follow the customs of the Jews?
Colossians 2:11-17
[FONT="]11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:[/FONT]
[FONT="]12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.[/FONT]
[FONT="]13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;[/FONT]
[FONT="]14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;[/FONT]
[FONT="]15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.[/FONT]
[FONT="]16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:[/FONT]
[FONT="]17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.
Look at that. Christians are circumcised, spiritually. That's pretty interesting. And yet the Christians don't observe the carnal commandment. When did that change?
Hebrews 7:12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.
Hebrews 7:16-19
[/FONT]
[FONT="]16 Who is made, not after the law of a carnal commandment, but after the power of an endless life.[/FONT]
[FONT="]17 For he testifieth, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.[/FONT]
[FONT="]18 For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof.[/FONT]
[FONT="]19 For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God.
Weird that I am "spiritualizing" the law and not following a literal carnal commandment. Or is it weird that a Christian would look back to the OT law to follow it in their own understanding after coming to Christ?
[/FONT]
The real issue IS the Sabbath day ! Christians think that after coming to Christ it no longer needs to be observed. Point is they never observed it in the first place being STRANGERS without God and not belonging to the Commonwealth of Israel Eph 2v12. JESUS on the cross preaches RECONCILLIATION between Israel and Strangers - Jesus is NOT teaching the 'abolition of God's Commandments (as christians seem to understand).
Jesus HIMSELF is our living example of keeping the Sabbath day holy and those who reject it remain STrangers !
If I may suggest - the difference in understanding you so desparately seek lies in the 'difference of spirit' !!! Have a look at Rev 22v11, 14,15 and see that maybe some can not be turned, refuse to be turned and we sadly may have to leave them to their fate.
Jesus HIMSELF is our living example of keeping the Sabbath day holy and those who reject it remain STrangers !
If I may suggest - the difference in understanding you so desparately seek lies in the 'difference of spirit' !!! Have a look at Rev 22v11, 14,15 and see that maybe some can not be turned, refuse to be turned and we sadly may have to leave them to their fate.
If we want to really keep the Sabbath holy - then we need to believe that Christ is our true Sabbath rest and what He has done.
Everything in the Old Testament speaks of Christ and His work for us - from creation on through to the now obsolete law of Moses. He is our life - not a carnal keeping of a day which is a shadow of the real substance which is Christ Himself.
Everything in the Old Testament speaks of Christ and His work for us - from creation on through to the now obsolete law of Moses. He is our life - not a carnal keeping of a day which is a shadow of the real substance which is Christ Himself.
I would offer more and more I see the word Sabbath is not a time sensitive word changing it to mean “week” destroys it purpose.
The king James reads …as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week
.
Using the word Sabbath as rest adding no other definition my opinion reads
My pinion ….as it began to dawn toward the first of the Saabaths (new era )the new covenant.
Any time we do not harden our hearts as God works I to both will and do His good purpose we enter that rest, according to the true fast. The phrase I fast twice a week destroys the meaning which is I fast twice of the Sabbath as a oral tradition of the Jew three kosher meals were allowed. The person was simply bragging he took it a set further.
The same with the man gathering sticks to bake that which he should of the day before. Assuming it was just the work of gathering sticks with no purpose does not flow. The subject matter had to do with Mana, and not no picking up sticks on the Sabbah . The gathering of the wood violated the principle to bake it the day before
Exo 16:23 And he said unto them, This is that which the LORD hath said, To morrow is the rest of the holy sabbath unto the LORD: bake that which ye will bake to day, and seethe that ye will seethe; and that which remaineth over lay up for you to be kept until the morning.
They were allowed to eat the baked mana on the following day (and that which remaineth over lay up for you to be kept until the morning) three meals was the tradition again the man that ate twice on the Sabbath was simply bragging, empty boasts. .
The king James reads …as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week
.
Using the word Sabbath as rest adding no other definition my opinion reads
My pinion ….as it began to dawn toward the first of the Saabaths (new era )the new covenant.
Any time we do not harden our hearts as God works I to both will and do His good purpose we enter that rest, according to the true fast. The phrase I fast twice a week destroys the meaning which is I fast twice of the Sabbath as a oral tradition of the Jew three kosher meals were allowed. The person was simply bragging he took it a set further.
The same with the man gathering sticks to bake that which he should of the day before. Assuming it was just the work of gathering sticks with no purpose does not flow. The subject matter had to do with Mana, and not no picking up sticks on the Sabbah . The gathering of the wood violated the principle to bake it the day before
Exo 16:23 And he said unto them, This is that which the LORD hath said, To morrow is the rest of the holy sabbath unto the LORD: bake that which ye will bake to day, and seethe that ye will seethe; and that which remaineth over lay up for you to be kept until the morning.
They were allowed to eat the baked mana on the following day (and that which remaineth over lay up for you to be kept until the morning) three meals was the tradition again the man that ate twice on the Sabbath was simply bragging, empty boasts. .
I think there is gross misunderstanding about whether one should keep the Sabbath (and other Laws of God) because of a gross misunderstanding of what the Pharisees promoted and why Christ opposed them. No believer in Christ wants to side with the Pharisees, and rightfully so. But the following incorrect contest is created with this misunderstanding:
The New Testament Grace (by Christ)
VS.
The Old Testament Law (by Pharisees)
I think this gross misunderstanding of the what the Pharisees promoted is due to the fact that we haven't taken any time to study who the Pharisees were and what they were actually doing. Instead, we accept what we were told about them; to see them as the "religious leaders" of Christ's time (which is an incomplete picture) and thus they become the representatives of everything that has "passed away" (lumping together all the law of God; the "old wine skins"; the old testament, etc). So then when believers read NT passages and letters where Pharisees or The Law is referenced they carrying over the same gross misunderstanding instead of rightly dividing. I think this is the root of the issue.
So I will be bold in making the following statement:
Thus says the Lord; The pharisees did NOT teach obedience to God's law but taught obedience to their own traditions. Again, thus says the Lord God of Abraham; The Pharisees did NOT teach obedience to God's law but taught obedience to their traditions that they added to God's law.
Now anyone who knows the scriptures knows that God warns against anyone speaking on his behalf presumptuously and the truth should be diligently searched out and that person is in big trouble if they're false, so I hope this spurs the reader to diligently research what I'm saying.
Christ opposed the Pharisees because their traditions perverted God's law, including his Sabbath law. When the Pharisees accused Christ of breaking the Sabbath law they were not speaking as God's representatives nor as zealots for God's law, but as leaders of their OWN "man-made" religious organization that God *did not create* or sanction to be created. God warned against adding to or taking away from his words, but that's exactly what the Pharisees did. Christ called the Pharisees "Hypocrites", "brood of vipers" and "children of the Devil" so could they *possibly* represent God or his law in any capacity? Absolutely not. No, the true contest was/is this:
Truth of God's Law and the Grace to follow it correctly (by Christ)
VS.
Traditions of Men and continued Bondage to sin (by Pharisees)
It's the same exact contest even today.
If the reader doesn't understand this critical truth they will *always* reach an incorrect understanding of what Christ was opposing and preaching during his ministry, and without the proper foundation *everything else* they read in the NT will be misunderstood, including the Sabbath day.
Romans 8:7
The carnal mind is hostile to God; it does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so.
So scripture details three key characteristics of the carnal mind. But in stark contrast...
So the opposite characteristics are true of Christ, and we know that he doesn't change, thus if Christ does all the work inside the believer as the believer no longer lives but Christ lives in them, then...
So scripture teaches as a fact that the carnal mind rather do *anything else* than to obey God's law in any way, but the mind of Christ (i.e. his Spirit) wants to obey God's law at all times because the law is holy and spiritual, and Christ is the same. So setting aside for a moment the argument for or against the "ability" to keep the Sabbath, I think the first order of business is to ask the following question and test the spirit within oneself:
"Do I *want* to keep the Sabbath day?"
I think it's a simple but important question...Because if one merely want to then that alone confirms none other than Christ in you (as you no longer live, remember?). Only he is Lord of the Sabbath and his only desire was to please God by obeying him. Again, scripture says he does not change, and that he is inside the believer doing the work, so he's not going to be a different Christ inside you than he was out of you 2000 years ago. Never once did Christ break the Sabbath day, and never once did he speak or teach against the Sabbath day.
And again, I don't think arguments for or against the Sabbath day or whether one understands it or not is as important as whether one wants to keep the Sabbath day. So if you want to; if your soul says "yes, I want to keep God's Sabbath day" then that's evidence of Christ's Holy Spirit working inside you and understanding of its significance, adherence, understanding and/or fulfillment is inevitable in your walk.
But the desire to keep it would be there, not hostility against it.
The New Testament Grace (by Christ)
VS.
The Old Testament Law (by Pharisees)
I think this gross misunderstanding of the what the Pharisees promoted is due to the fact that we haven't taken any time to study who the Pharisees were and what they were actually doing. Instead, we accept what we were told about them; to see them as the "religious leaders" of Christ's time (which is an incomplete picture) and thus they become the representatives of everything that has "passed away" (lumping together all the law of God; the "old wine skins"; the old testament, etc). So then when believers read NT passages and letters where Pharisees or The Law is referenced they carrying over the same gross misunderstanding instead of rightly dividing. I think this is the root of the issue.
So I will be bold in making the following statement:
Thus says the Lord; The pharisees did NOT teach obedience to God's law but taught obedience to their own traditions. Again, thus says the Lord God of Abraham; The Pharisees did NOT teach obedience to God's law but taught obedience to their traditions that they added to God's law.
Now anyone who knows the scriptures knows that God warns against anyone speaking on his behalf presumptuously and the truth should be diligently searched out and that person is in big trouble if they're false, so I hope this spurs the reader to diligently research what I'm saying.
Christ opposed the Pharisees because their traditions perverted God's law, including his Sabbath law. When the Pharisees accused Christ of breaking the Sabbath law they were not speaking as God's representatives nor as zealots for God's law, but as leaders of their OWN "man-made" religious organization that God *did not create* or sanction to be created. God warned against adding to or taking away from his words, but that's exactly what the Pharisees did. Christ called the Pharisees "Hypocrites", "brood of vipers" and "children of the Devil" so could they *possibly* represent God or his law in any capacity? Absolutely not. No, the true contest was/is this:
Truth of God's Law and the Grace to follow it correctly (by Christ)
VS.
Traditions of Men and continued Bondage to sin (by Pharisees)
It's the same exact contest even today.
If the reader doesn't understand this critical truth they will *always* reach an incorrect understanding of what Christ was opposing and preaching during his ministry, and without the proper foundation *everything else* they read in the NT will be misunderstood, including the Sabbath day.
Romans 8:7
The carnal mind is hostile to God; it does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so.
- Carnal mind Does not want to keep God's law (i.e. hostile)
- Carnal mind Can not keep God's law
- Carnal mind Does not keep God's law
So scripture details three key characteristics of the carnal mind. But in stark contrast...
- Christ wanted to keep God's law
- Christ Could keep God's law
- Christ Did keep God's law
So the opposite characteristics are true of Christ, and we know that he doesn't change, thus if Christ does all the work inside the believer as the believer no longer lives but Christ lives in them, then...
- If Christ is in you, you want to keep God's law
- If Christ is in you, you can keep God's law
- If Christ is in you, you do keep God's law
So scripture teaches as a fact that the carnal mind rather do *anything else* than to obey God's law in any way, but the mind of Christ (i.e. his Spirit) wants to obey God's law at all times because the law is holy and spiritual, and Christ is the same. So setting aside for a moment the argument for or against the "ability" to keep the Sabbath, I think the first order of business is to ask the following question and test the spirit within oneself:
"Do I *want* to keep the Sabbath day?"
I think it's a simple but important question...Because if one merely want to then that alone confirms none other than Christ in you (as you no longer live, remember?). Only he is Lord of the Sabbath and his only desire was to please God by obeying him. Again, scripture says he does not change, and that he is inside the believer doing the work, so he's not going to be a different Christ inside you than he was out of you 2000 years ago. Never once did Christ break the Sabbath day, and never once did he speak or teach against the Sabbath day.
And again, I don't think arguments for or against the Sabbath day or whether one understands it or not is as important as whether one wants to keep the Sabbath day. So if you want to; if your soul says "yes, I want to keep God's Sabbath day" then that's evidence of Christ's Holy Spirit working inside you and understanding of its significance, adherence, understanding and/or fulfillment is inevitable in your walk.
But the desire to keep it would be there, not hostility against it.
No. Im afraid we got ourselves another wannabe jew. Just stop it man this is corny. You cannot keep the sabbath in 2017 in the modern western world. You cannot. Try shutting down all industry within your city walls and convincing them all to keep the sabbath.
And if they don't well you know what to do dontcha? Oh yeah btw: Yahshua as a name does not exist in the old testament, see unlike the role-players I can actually read it, so lets stop using that. How about this: Jesus, Yeshua.
Stop putting a burden on people that you aint carrying yourself.
And if they don't well you know what to do dontcha? Oh yeah btw: Yahshua as a name does not exist in the old testament, see unlike the role-players I can actually read it, so lets stop using that. How about this: Jesus, Yeshua.
Stop putting a burden on people that you aint carrying yourself.
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EXcellent post !!!
Jesus Christ the same yesterday, today and forever---if only people allowed Him to be Himself ! HE kept the Sabbath yesterday, why would He not keep it today or tomorrow ?
People falsly judge others according to the law of Moses or the Pharisees instead of according to the 'Lord of the Sabbath with whom we should be walking 24/7 !
Great post friend I hope will help clear the misunderstanding, hatred and nasty name-calling some resort to.
Jesus Christ the same yesterday, today and forever---if only people allowed Him to be Himself ! HE kept the Sabbath yesterday, why would He not keep it today or tomorrow ?
People falsly judge others according to the law of Moses or the Pharisees instead of according to the 'Lord of the Sabbath with whom we should be walking 24/7 !
Great post friend I hope will help clear the misunderstanding, hatred and nasty name-calling some resort to.
Looks like I roused your spirit with something I said.
I sure do wannabe like that Jew of 2000 years ago, you better believe it lol. I hope you wanna be like that Jew too ("Whoever claims to live in him must live as Jesus did." 1 John 2:6). One can indeed keep the Sabbath in our modern western world, or do you lack faith in God's ability ("I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me" Phil 4:13)? With regard to shutting down industry; what has industry to do with your personal relationship and walk with God? Why would you need to shut down all industry for you yourself to rest on the Sabbath Day ("Also I gave them my Sabbaths as a sign between us, so they would know that I the LORD made them holy." Ezekiel 20:12)?
So let me ask you: Do you "want" to keep the Sabbath? Don't worry about whether one can or can't. Do you want to or not? I'm curious.
It may be corny to you but "wanting" to obey God's law wasn't corny to Paul, in fact he said:
Romans 7:14-16
14 We know that the Law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin.
15 I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do, I do not do. But what I hate, I do.
16 And if I do what I do not desire, I admit that the Law is good.
As far as scripture concerned, Paul *wanted* to obey God's law, included in that is the Sabbath Day, so it looks like I'm in great company lol.
---
Btw, lol my name is Joshua. It's not in the Old Testament either and yet my mother gave me the name. I couldn't register it here so I went with the next best thing since I'm sure you know the letter "J" is relatively new and originally had a "y" sound because it was a fancy way of writing "i". lol My profile name has nothing to do with Christ, but you're relatively new here so you weren't around when I explained that to folks a few times. Gotta work on your own presumptuousness.
Oh to that point, "Jesus" isn't in the new testament by your same logic or "Yeshua", it's ἴσους (isous), so we should toss out Jesus and Yeshua also right? You see...there's reading, and then there's comprehending the substance of what one reads.
Focus on substance.
I sure do wannabe like that Jew of 2000 years ago, you better believe it lol. I hope you wanna be like that Jew too ("Whoever claims to live in him must live as Jesus did." 1 John 2:6). One can indeed keep the Sabbath in our modern western world, or do you lack faith in God's ability ("I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me" Phil 4:13)? With regard to shutting down industry; what has industry to do with your personal relationship and walk with God? Why would you need to shut down all industry for you yourself to rest on the Sabbath Day ("Also I gave them my Sabbaths as a sign between us, so they would know that I the LORD made them holy." Ezekiel 20:12)?
So let me ask you: Do you "want" to keep the Sabbath? Don't worry about whether one can or can't. Do you want to or not? I'm curious.
It may be corny to you but "wanting" to obey God's law wasn't corny to Paul, in fact he said:
Romans 7:14-16
14 We know that the Law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin.
15 I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do, I do not do. But what I hate, I do.
16 And if I do what I do not desire, I admit that the Law is good.
As far as scripture concerned, Paul *wanted* to obey God's law, included in that is the Sabbath Day, so it looks like I'm in great company lol.
---
Btw, lol my name is Joshua. It's not in the Old Testament either and yet my mother gave me the name. I couldn't register it here so I went with the next best thing since I'm sure you know the letter "J" is relatively new and originally had a "y" sound because it was a fancy way of writing "i". lol My profile name has nothing to do with Christ, but you're relatively new here so you weren't around when I explained that to folks a few times. Gotta work on your own presumptuousness.
Oh to that point, "Jesus" isn't in the new testament by your same logic or "Yeshua", it's ἴσους (isous), so we should toss out Jesus and Yeshua also right? You see...there's reading, and then there's comprehending the substance of what one reads.
Focus on substance.
Are you so without understanding that you can not read simple English? My reason for keeping the Sabbath comes from outside the law given to Moses. The law Given to Moses does indeed help but it is not the reason. What you are doing is akin to me telling you not to follow Jesus because the law points to Him and instructs us concerning Him. You must apply your logic across the board and you will see it falls short. Concerning the 7th day Sabbath the law gives instruction but the reality is not something to come but something that has come in Gen 2. But I can see why you are dodging Gen 2, it does not fit your view. by the way try reading the 4th commandment as it says and it will be clear that it is a reference to creation.
I find it interesting that until hear we have been dealing with things openly and honestly but now you seem to avoid the texts given. why is that? maybe you don't think you are avoiding them. But you are not dealing with them.
As for the notion that I have to prove it from the New, this is also a demonstration of misunderstanding.
Where does Paul and Jesus etc tell us to gain our teachings/Doctrines our understanding of truth?
Answer: The Old Testament. I could past so many letters from the new that show this to be the case. Jesus said "it is written" "have you not read" "how readest thou" Paul said to study the scriptures and that they (the OT) are our instruction for life. Yes you must take the vail off to see it, Yes its about Jesus.
The new does not replace the old, Its a bunch of testimonies and teachings based on the Old. The very authority used for the teachings in the new is found in the multiple quotes and references to the Old Testament.
So it is rather up to you to demonstrate that the 7th day Sabbath is a shadow or gone away from the OT.
You can teach that circumcision would pass when the messiah comes from he Old testament, In fact Paul did just that.
You can teach that the law was given because the Jews did not have faith form the OT, Paul did just that.
You can teach that the sacrifices and the priesthood and the tabernacle itself would be useless once messiah comes from the OT, Paul did just that.
But do you know what you can't do? You can't find anywhere in the OT where the finished work of creation is changed. You can't find anywhere where the 7th Day Sabbath will change, In fact the opposite it true, You can find prophecies in the OT that show the Sabbath continues and applies for Gentiles in the OT. You can find where it prophecies that the 7th day Sabbath will apply still after Jesus death and resurrection in the OT.
There are Sabbaths aside from the 7th day Sabbath found in the OT which you can also show from the OT that were only shadows until the Messiah should come. And you can shew that from the OT.
Hence the New testament is nothing more than people testifying that Jesus is the one that the OT spoke of and they can demonstrate that from the OT. It is also instruction on how to live and they can Demonstrate it from the OT. Because the OT is there reference which they learned was about Jesus and thus could read it rightly without changing it or spiritualizing it away.
So if you are going to follow scripture then you have to do as it directs, If you make one witness disagree with another then you have made your own doctrine a new doctrine that is not found in either the NT or the OT.
I find it interesting that until hear we have been dealing with things openly and honestly but now you seem to avoid the texts given. why is that? maybe you don't think you are avoiding them. But you are not dealing with them.
As for the notion that I have to prove it from the New, this is also a demonstration of misunderstanding.
Where does Paul and Jesus etc tell us to gain our teachings/Doctrines our understanding of truth?
Answer: The Old Testament. I could past so many letters from the new that show this to be the case. Jesus said "it is written" "have you not read" "how readest thou" Paul said to study the scriptures and that they (the OT) are our instruction for life. Yes you must take the vail off to see it, Yes its about Jesus.
The new does not replace the old, Its a bunch of testimonies and teachings based on the Old. The very authority used for the teachings in the new is found in the multiple quotes and references to the Old Testament.
So it is rather up to you to demonstrate that the 7th day Sabbath is a shadow or gone away from the OT.
You can teach that circumcision would pass when the messiah comes from he Old testament, In fact Paul did just that.
You can teach that the law was given because the Jews did not have faith form the OT, Paul did just that.
You can teach that the sacrifices and the priesthood and the tabernacle itself would be useless once messiah comes from the OT, Paul did just that.
But do you know what you can't do? You can't find anywhere in the OT where the finished work of creation is changed. You can't find anywhere where the 7th Day Sabbath will change, In fact the opposite it true, You can find prophecies in the OT that show the Sabbath continues and applies for Gentiles in the OT. You can find where it prophecies that the 7th day Sabbath will apply still after Jesus death and resurrection in the OT.
There are Sabbaths aside from the 7th day Sabbath found in the OT which you can also show from the OT that were only shadows until the Messiah should come. And you can shew that from the OT.
Hence the New testament is nothing more than people testifying that Jesus is the one that the OT spoke of and they can demonstrate that from the OT. It is also instruction on how to live and they can Demonstrate it from the OT. Because the OT is there reference which they learned was about Jesus and thus could read it rightly without changing it or spiritualizing it away.
So if you are going to follow scripture then you have to do as it directs, If you make one witness disagree with another then you have made your own doctrine a new doctrine that is not found in either the NT or the OT.