Veganism: Moral Superiority?

[Meggido]

Not sure what those big words mean...lol

But, lack of vision...lack of spiritual knowledge maybe?

Theistic evolutionists are "self professed Christians" that generally believe

1. That God used evolution to create and make the earth and animals and mankind

2. That God created evolution to create and make the earth and animals and mankind

3. That God stood by and watched evolution take place.

4. Some but not all, also believe in something called the GAP Theory

Many deny young earth theories or that that the earth and everything in it and animals and humans were created in years not 6 literal days. Many will tell you the solar systems and other things are billions of years old.

Secular humanists are usually Atheists, that may or may not agree with Evolution.

 

[Meggido]

No,you cant

There are serious flaws in your position and this is a discussion forum... so if you are so tired of "silly debates", its better to not get involved at all.

Already did , get it over it

 

[trofimus]

You say the Bible does not state that animals or people were not eating meat, but neither does it state that they were, and that is important, because what actually is stated and has been repeated over and over again is the fact that only vegetation was given to all creatures as food until after the flood. Both man and animals were vegetarians originally, and both will be vegetarians ultimately.

Actually, when you look at a cow and at a lion, you can surely see a difference in their body constitution. Because cow is made to eat "herbs" and lion is made to hunt, kill and process meat.

You would have to say that God created half of animals after the fall/flood or that He had to make huge changes to the ecosystem and animals later. Which is not in the Bible at all.

"God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat. And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so."

Green plants are the beginning of the food chain. But many creatures are not constituted for eating it directly.

Notice that this food itself is called meat, even though it is not from animals

Its only a KJV translation error, nothing significant.

The distinction made between clean and unclean animals must be more than diet, because all scaled and finned fish are acceptable as food, and yet they are carnivores that eat unclean animals. Diet may be a large factor, though. Do you have any Scriptures that elucidate the reason for distinction beyond cud chewing and split hoof?

Not sure how this is relevant. The important thing is that Noah knew what are clean and unclean animals and therefore people before flood were probably eating animals already.

Why was Abel a flock keeper and why did he have their fat?

 

[Meggido]

Why was Abel a flock keeper and why did he have their fat?

For the atoning sacrifice.

 

[trofimus]

Theistic evolutionists are "self professed Christians" that generally believe

1. That God used evolution to create and make the earth and animals and mankind

2. That God created evolution to create and make the earth and animals and mankind

3. That God stood by and watched evolution take place.

4. Some but not all, also believe in something called the GAP Theory

Many deny young earth theories or that that the earth and everything in it and animals and humans were created in years not 6 literal days. Many will tell you the solar systems and other things are billions of years old.

Secular humanists are usually Atheists, that may or may not agree with Evolution.

Evolution theory is not about the development of planet (earth), only about the development of life.

 

[trofimus]

For the atoning sacrifice.

"Abel also brought of the firstborn of his flock and of their fat portions."

He brought only "of their fat portions", you are making it all just for sacrifices.

 

[Tommy379]

Having a personality doesn't mean they are persons. And I've found that the mindset of "just an animal" will sometimes be cruel to animals.

Hence the living conditions of animals for marketing only. Farmers who are honest in heart care for those that are his.

You don't know me.

 

[Nicole-Christina]

As a Christian vegetarian, here are my two cents on the issue.

1. As someone quoted previously, Genesis 9:3 reads "Everything that lives and moves about will be food for you. Just as I gave you the green plants, I now give you everything." That was after the flood, so there was a time pre-flood when supposedly people didn't eat meat. Jesus ate meat, so it can't be sinful. Given those two facts, I think it's safe to say that both vegan and non-vegan diets are acceptable.

2. I am not a vegetarian "activist", as you call it, meaning I personally choose not to eat meat but I don't try to convince others to do the same. Sometimes you need to eat meat to stay healthy, for example if you're allergic to nuts and you need a source of protein. There are also locations and historical times where it is/was impossible to survive without eating meat. (Good luck being a vegetarian in Iceland.) I choose not to eat meat because I find the idea of eating dead flesh disgusting, just like some people find yogurt disgusting. It's a personal preference.

3. The only "moral" aspect that comes into play for me is raising animals for the sole purpose of being killed and eaten. I'm totally fine with hunting because animals were designed to avoid predators (us), but sometimes the predator catches the prey. It's the circle of life. I just wish that cows, chickens, etc. hadn't been domesticated and genetically altered over hundreds of years to be pretty much useless except for being eaten, but that's what happened. It's unrealistic to want the whole world to be vegetarian, and to say eating meat is a moral issue is frankly adding to the Gospel.

Those are my thoughts!

 

[tourist]

No one actually has to read this, I just wanted to type it out and express my thoughts. Its pretty long, haha. Wanted to mull over it in my mind.

Wife is baking chicken for dinner tonight along with potato wedges. This is what's on my mind right now. By the way, you wrote a well written OP.

 

[Ariel82]

Theistic evolutionists are "self professed Christians" that generally believe

1. That God used evolution to create and make the earth and animals and mankind

2. That God created evolution to create and make the earth and animals and mankind

3. That God stood by and watched evolution take place.

4. Some but not all, also believe in something called the GAP Theory

Many deny young earth theories or that that the earth and everything in it and animals and humans were created in years not 6 literal days. Many will tell you the solar systems and other things are billions of years old.

Secular humanists are usually Atheists, that may or may not agree with Evolution.

Or some will say God created the universe with age....

We can "age" something artificially that would take millions of years to do naturally (assuming conditions didn't change).

I take radioactive dating as the best we know right now, but if other factors were added we would reassess many scientific theories...

For example how can a photon be both a particle and an energy wave?

 

[Ariel82]

Evolution theory is not about the development of planet (earth), only about the development of life.

Yeah that would be the Big bang theory....which I believe....God said "let there be light" than BANG.....

There we have it.

 

[Tommy379]

For the atoning sacrifice.

Then why did he bother keeping a flock of sheep?

 

[Ariel82]

Then why did he bother keeping a flock of sheep?

Wool makes nice clothes?

 

[tourist]

Then why did he bother keeping a flock of sheep?

Maybe he had a taste for lamb chops. Sheep is lamb right?

 

[Meggido]

Then why did he bother keeping a flock of sheep?

show me in black and white that they ate of the flock

 

[imfinallyfree]

That's ridiculous if they call killing animals murder because murder is only relevant when it's a human life being taken.

One of the reasons that the Cathars where called "The Perfects" is because they were vegetarians,so there may be some religious basis behind being a vegetarian,maybe not though because I think that I may be a reincarnated Cathar seeing as how I was baptized into their Church so I have believe in most of the same things that they do except not eating meat.

I freaking love a dripping blood steak.

 

[Magenta]

Actually, when you look at a cow and at a lion, you can surely see a difference in their body constitution. Because cow is made to eat "herbs" and lion is made to hunt, kill and process meat.

You would have to say that God created half of animals after the fall/flood or that He had to make huge changes to the ecosystem and animals later. Which is not in the Bible at all.

If we are talking about what is in the Bible, then we must accept that pre-flood no animals were given for food and that after the flood animals developed a fear of man; animals became acceptable prey for man and other animals. Nothing is said regarding whether animals ate other animals pre-flood. It does not matter that it does not sit well with your present world view or what you think must have had to happen for things to change, when we go by what Scripture says.

It would be pretty much literally impossible for us to imagine a world where there is no sin nor sorrow nor pain nor suffering nor death, but that is exactly what we are promised, and at the same time ALL creation will be restored, and animals will no longer eat each other. Even the lion will eat straw! See Isaiah 65 (as well as others)

17 “See, I will create
new heavens and a new earth.
The former things will not be remembered,
nor will they come to mind.

18 But be glad and rejoice forever
in what I will create,
for I will create Jerusalem to be a delight
and its people a joy.

19 I will rejoice over Jerusalem
and take delight in my people;
the sound of weeping and of crying
will be heard in it no more.

20 “Never again will there be in it
an infant who lives but a few days,
or an old man who does not live out his years;
the one who dies at a hundred
will be thought a mere child;
the one who fails to reach[SUP]a[/SUP] a hundred
will be considered accursed.

21 They will build houses and dwell in them;
they will plant vineyards and eat their fruit.

22 No longer will they build houses and others live in them,
or plant and others eat.
For as the days of a tree,
so will be the days of my people;
my chosen ones will long enjoy
the work of their hands.

23 They will not labor in vain,
nor will they bear children doomed to misfortune;
for they will be a people blessed by the Lord,
they and their descendants with them.

24 Before they call I will answer;
while they are still speaking I will hear.

25 The wolf and the lamb will feed together,
and the lion will eat straw like the ox,
and dust will be the serpent’s food.
They will neither harm nor destroy
on all my holy mountain,”

Green plants are the beginning of the food chain. But
many creatures are not constituted for eating it directly.

Not now, but they were before according to Scripture.

Its only a KJV translation error, nothing significant.

It is not a KJV translation error; you simply have a problem with what Scripture explicitly says. Every version says all with the breath of life was given every green plant (or something meaning the same thing) for food.

Not sure how this is relevant. The important thing is that Noah knew what are clean and unclean animals and therefore people before flood were probably eating animals already.

Animals were used for sacrifice. You assume they were being eaten before they were given as food.

Why was Abel a flock keeper and why did he have their fat?

Animal sacrifice prefigured the sacrificial lamb of God Unclean animals were never used.

 

[Billyd]

Here is some food for thought.

God gave man all the seeds of the plants and fruits of the trees for food first. Also he gave them to the animals. The Bible says so. But. There are many plant seeds and fruits of trees that will, as my grandmother always put it, kill you dead as a door nail. Yet there are other animals that can eat the same seeds and fruits that will kill man without consequence. The Bible doesn't address this, but I suspect that after Eden, man figured it out rather quickly. The same thing probably happened with meat. The Bible tells us that Abel was a sheep farmer. That makes sense because God always required a blood sacrifice to cover sins. We also know that sheep are one of the few animals that depend totally on man for their survival. So it makes sense that God would select them for man to sacrifice. The Bible doesn't address meat again until the flood. It does tell us that there were clean and unclean animals. It doesn't tell us whether they were being eaten or not until after the flood. I suspect that it didn't take man long to figure out that lamb taste pretty good. We also know that there are many animals whose flesh is poisonous to man, yet other animals can eat it without harm. I suspect that it didn't take man long to discover the ones that man could eat (clean). God preserved the clean animals on the Ark for both food and sacrifice.

When God let Noah off the Ark, the gave him all the animals to eat. Again, the Bible first identifies the actual clean animals with Moses. Remember at that time God's people had been in bondage for 400 years and they ate what the Egyptians fed them, then they spent forty years eating manna and quail provided by God. It makes sense that God would identify the safe (clean) foods for them. It is here that God first identified the eating of unclean animals as a sin.

Enough said.

 

[MattforJesus]

Isa 11:1 And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots:
Isa 11:2 And the spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD;
Isa 11:3 And shall make him of quick understanding in the fear of the LORD: and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither reprove after the hearing of his ears:
Isa 11:4 But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked.
Isa 11:5 And righteousness shall be the girdle of his loins, and faithfulness the girdle of his reins.
Isa 11:6 The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them.
Isa 11:7 And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox.
Isa 11:8 And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice' den.
Isa 11:9 They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea.

Pre-flood,eating plant life,God did not institute eating any animals at that time.

After flood,every living thing given for food.

Old Testament given,unclean and clean animals.

New Testament,back to every living thing given for food,for all meat is good,and nothing to be refused,if it be received with thanksgiving,for it is sanctified by the word of God,and prayer.

Millennial reign of Christ,the people that Jesus and the saints rule over will be in flesh,plant eaters,and animals will be plant eaters,animals will not eat animals,and will be so tame that a child can lead a crocodile in one hand,and a lion in the other,and that animal will have no desire to hurt the child.

 

[Magenta]

When God let Noah off the Ark, the gave him all the animals to eat. Again, the Bible first identifies the actual clean animals with Moses. Remember at that time God's people had been in bondage for 400 years and they ate what the Egyptians fed them, then they spent forty years eating manna and quail provided by God. It makes sense that God would identify the safe (clean) foods for them. It is here that God first identified the eating of unclean animals as a sin.

Enough said.

Hello Billy Long before Moses, Noah knew which animals were clean and unclean.