Not By Works

[stonesoffire]

There is no law in love. Love is a force. Power. It's the very nature of God Himself. Light is another description. God is love, light, truth, what else can we all think to describe God?

What we are is flesh. That's human nature that is under the influence of spirits of darkness. Only Light can penetrate the darkness for Light is greater. Light comes in...like the pneumatic force, thank you Mr. Nee. Breath! A new life...different than the one we are born into.

Light increases with understanding that eventually floods the whole being. This is the purpose of God on our inner man...flowing to the outer man. Whelmed by Holy Spirit.

A new generation of spiritual men and women. Under no law of control...but a new man. A race of beings that were not before on this earth...unless you think adam and eve was in the beginning. I am still kicking around that thought.

Something never seen before is what Jesus has brought down to man.

So do we want to live under dry dusty rules of a way of life that never satisfied? Or do we want to be filled with God Himself which results in our being like Him?

The choice is ours. But, it's always a bad choice not to choose life.

 

[UnderGrace]

Can you deny or not believe after you take the gift?

If they did under the Old Covenant? what radically changed under the New Covenant?

Be honest here now, and lets not talk mental assenting to salvation, this is where many can stumble.

You suggest God is no longer a covenant God after he pays your debt....yet many people get a debt paid by someone else and go right back into debt again.

You are saying that the freedom of choice is lost once God pays the debt. The Epistles are full of stories of others that walked away after God paid their debt.

To be clear this is not talking about doing works to maintain salvation, or to be granted salvation, this is about walking away from the Faith up to and including Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit.

I know a man who was once a very powerful servant of God. When His wife died in a car accident, he could never get over it...he said that Jesus used the devil's power to kill his wife...No tell me, is that man OSAS and when he passed was it to Glory?

Sadly, I know many faithful that renounce God outright and blame him for the death f spouses, kids, etc and they make a willful determination to walk away from God and in doing so seared their conscience from hearing the Holy Spirit.

If you believe no personal faith saves you then you will not agree with this view, and if that is your view, lets leave this here and not start a war.

If you do believe personal faith saves you, then you have to explain how you can suggest accepting the free gift of Salvation takes you hostage even after the renouncement of God, falling away from the faith[Apostasy] and cursing the Holy Spirit, because sister that ain't found anywhere in the Bible...

1 John 2.19 does not apply here IMO, because I have seen to many people get hurt and offended so bad they reject God, and they were fully for him, the fruit and everything proves to you they were a follower.

Will answer later ....my phone is too frustrating

 

[Ariel82]

If they did under the Old Covenant? what radically changed under the New Covenant?

1. Indweling holy spirit
2. Born again child of God
3. Renewed hearts and minds

 

[PennEd]

Hi PennEd

What do you mean I'm not too far off?
You mean I MUST agree with you???
NO. I agree with what my bible tells me and it does not teach me eternal securiy.

As far as loving one another, I, and those who think eternal security is an incorrect doctrine DO show love for Others.
Oddly enough, those that believe in eternal security do NOT show love. I've been told on numerous occasions that I'm going to hell. That's another question I have --- why does this Group ALWAYS speak about hell? Maybe they're worried they're going there and so must make up this false doctrine of eternal security??

I do agree with everything you've said above.
Here's the difference between you and me:

I'm not AFRAID to say that God DEMANDS that we follow HIS commandments.
YOU, otoh, cannot simply state this but must beat around the bush ---- I don't really understand why.

DOES GOD OR DOESN'T GOD REQUIRE US TO OBEY HIS COMMANDMENTS?

It's a yes or no answer.


As far as Mathew 5:20
You'll note that there are no quotation marks or mention of the version.
This means that I went through verse by verse with my own words to explain my understanding to the person I was posting t.

As I said, I use either the NASB or the NIV, I also have the KJV, the NKJV, the Living Bible, and Others.

Here's my Whole post again --- you'll see what I mean.
I just want to add that it's nice to talk about scripture -- not call each other names and say one Group is the plentious Group and going to hell. This is terrible on a Christian site where we are to love each other.

My original post with Mathew 5:20:

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Hello PennEd

Doing OK. Could be better. Could be worse. My best wishes to you and yours also.

I'm rather shocked at how scripture is not understood.

Let's start at Mathew 5:20, as you wish.

Jesus was saying how He did not come to abolish the Law.
He says that he came to fulfill the Law. Fulfill means to make complete. I'm sure you now this.
Mathew 5:17

So, how is the Law made complete?
By moving it from a heart of stone to a heart of flesh.
Ezekiel 36:26

Or, as someone here has stated, from the external to the internal.


Not the smalles stroke or letter will pass from the Law. IOW, we are not to trivialize the Law - it's as important as it has ALWAYS been. God did NOT give the commadments and then decided to take them away.

God is the same Yesterday, today and Tomorrow.
Hebrews 13:8

Whoever ANNULS one of the LEAST OF THESE COMMANDMENTS, and also teaches Others to do the same, will e called the least in the Kingdom
Mathew 5:19a


But who hold these commandments and teachings in high regard, will find Honor in the Kingdom.
Mathew 5:19b


UNLESS YOU DO EVEN BETTER THAN THE PHARISSES IN THE MATTER OF LIVING RIGHTEOUSLY, YOU WILL KNOW NOTHING ABOUT ENTERNG THE KINGDOM.
Mathew 5:20


verse 20 is saying that we MUST DO BETTER than the Pharisees.
We MUST move the commandments from our mind to our hearts.

Then Jesus goes on to show us HOW we are to do this.

Now lust goes beyong physical action, but becomes a HEART action or matter.
Mathew 5:27-28


Is this difficult to understand?

Please take the time to read Mathew again and understand it in context, as you yourself have said.
Jesus did NOT make following the commandments easier, He made it MORE DIFFICULT.

Someone else on this thread had the same idea as you.
It's incorrect if the bible is read at face value and not made to say what WE might want it to say.

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You'll notice that the Whole post uses my own words.

Hi Fran,

It is close to impossible to have 2 diametrically opposed concepts explained without coming off as condescending. As unavoidable as this is I'm trying. That is the point of telling you that I can completely disagree with your works doctrine, while simultaneously loving you.

It is VERY dangerous to write Scripture, giving it Chapter and verse, in your own words, without explicitly saying that is what you are doing.

Yes and no questions, without qualifications, invariably lead to a misrepresentation of a person's response, and are almost always unfair.

The question should be framed differently. Does "commandments" mean the Law? And if so, does that include dietary restrictions, Saturday Sabbath, killing your children if they are disobedient, mixing different fabrics in clothing...etc...? Do we get to pick and choose WHICH commandments (laws) we should adhere to?

Or is the Commandments Jesus talking about 25 And behold, a certain lawyer stood up and tested Him, saying, “Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?”26 He said to him, “What is written in the law? What is your reading of it?”
27 So he answered and said, “ ‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your strength, and with all your mind,’[h] and ‘your neighbor as yourself.’”[i]
28 And He said to him, “You have answered rightly; do this and you will live.”

Further, what happens if you DON'T follow all the Law, or DO sin? Maybe even over and over? Your posts for months now seem to indicate that you would lose your salvation.

I ABSOLUTELY agree with eternal security. Have I not shown love? As for others, maybe their calling is to implement Jude 22 And on some have compassion, making a distinction;[d] 23 but others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire,[e] hating even the garment defiled by the flesh.

I will post 101 verses that the Holy Spirit teaches, that we are secure FOREVER in Christ. Never losing it once we are sealed by Him:

I'd implore you to read and pray on each one. Be Blessed!

 

[Meggido]

Will answer later ....my phone is too frustrating

Sounds good, again not fighting or proving, just discussing. I do agree with what youa re syaing regarding salvation.

Thanks again for a civil discussion

 

[FranC]

Hi Fran,

It is close to impossible to have 2 diametrically opposed concepts explained without coming off as condescending. As unavoidable as this is I'm trying. That is the point of telling you that I can completely disagree with your works doctrine, while simultaneously loving you.

It is VERY dangerous to write Scripture, giving it Chapter and verse, in your own words, without explicitly saying that is what you are doing.

Yes and no questions, without qualifications, invariably lead to a misrepresentation of a person's response, and are almost always unfair.

The question should be framed differently. Does "commandments" mean the Law? And if so, does that include dietary restrictions, Saturday Sabbath, killing your children if they are disobedient, mixing different fabrics in clothing...etc...? Do we get to pick and choose WHICH commandments (laws) we should adhere to?

Or is the Commandments Jesus talking about 25 [FONT=&]And behold, a certain lawyer stood up and tested Him, saying, “Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?”[/FONT][FONT=&]26 He said to him, “What is written in the law? What is your reading of it?”[/FONT]
[FONT=&]27 So he answered and said, “ ‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your strength, and with all your mind,’[h] and ‘your neighbor as yourself.’”[i][/FONT]
[FONT=&]28 And He said to him, “You have answered rightly; do this and you will live.”

Further, what happens if you DON'T follow all the Law, or DO sin? Maybe even over and over? Your posts for months now seem to indicate that you would lose your salvation.

I ABSOLUTELY agree with eternal security. Have I not shown love? As for others, maybe their calling is to implement Jude 22 And on some have compassion, making a distinction;[d] 23 but others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire,[e] hating even the garment defiled by the flesh.

I will post 101 verses that the Holy Spirit teaches, that we are secure FOREVER in Christ. Never losing it once we are sealed by Him:

I'd implore you to read and pray on each one. Be Blessed![/FONT]

No need to pray and read.

I'll be answering you right after dinner.
Yes. It's almost dinner time here...

 

[Ariel82]

"

1 John 2.19 does not apply here IMO, because I have seen to many people get hurt and offended so bad they reject God, and they were fully for him, the fruit and everything proves to you they were a follower."


You see that is the point...outward.fruit doesn't show that they are God's kids. Many people fake it and don't really trust Jesus for their salvation. They are stony or Rocky ground and flourish for a while but then the cares or lusts of the world choke out their shallow faith. Not saving faith in Jesus but shallow faith in what they think they deserve and God should give them. When they learn God is not the promised genie in the bottle or the magical shield from all worldly troubles.., they abandon God because they never had a saving faith to begin with. They had faith in a false image of who they thought God was.

 

[Meggido]

I think, the law show us what to do, but the Holy Spirit help us do.

without Holy Spirit, we do not able to do the law

What Law are you are you referring to? There is only one Law under the new covenant....

The Law of Love

The Holy Spirit will not show you how to follow the Law, that Law was already fulfilled.

 

[PennEd]

1. The believer has everlasting or eternal life.

John 5:24: “Verily, verily, I say unto you, he that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.”

John 10:28: “And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.”

2. The believer is born of God.

John 1:12-13: “But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.”

3. Christ will raise every believer up at the last day.

John 6:44-47: “No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. It is written in the prophets, and they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me. Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father. Verily, verily, I say unto you, he that believeth on me hath everlasting life.”

4. The believer has already passed from death unto life.

John 5:24: “Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.”

5. The believer is not the object of God’s wrath.

John 3:36: “He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.”

6. Believer are God’s sheep.

John 10:2-4: “But he that entereth in by the door is the shepherd of the sheep. To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out. And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice.”

7. The believer will not listen to nor follow a stranger, but will flee from him.

John 10:5: “And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers.” (The stranger here is Satan and his false teachers.)

8. The believer is known of God.

John 10:14: “I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.”

9. The believer listens to the voice of the shepherd.

John 10:27: “My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me.”

10. The believer is in Christ’s hand and cannot be plucked out.

John 10:28: “And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.”

11. The believer is in the Father’s hand and cannot be plucked out.

John 10:29: “My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand.”

12. The shepherd is charged with the responsibility of keeping the sheep.

John 10:11-14: “I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep. But he that is an hireling, and not the shepherd, whose own the sheep are not, seeth the wolf coming, and leaveth the sheep, and fleeth: and the wolf catcheth them, and scattereth the sheep. The hireling fleeth, because he is an hireling, and careth not for the sheep. I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.”

13. The believer is not condemned.

John 3:18: “He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.”

14. The believer shall never thirst.

John 4:14: “But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.”

15. The believer will keep Christ’s commandments.

John 14:23: “Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.”

16. The believer is secure because of Christ’s prayer.

John 17:9-12: “I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine. And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them. And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee, Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are. While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.”

17. The believer shall never die.

John 11:26: “And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?”

18. The believer to be kept from the evil.

John 17:15: “I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.”

Jesus prays that the believer may be kept from the Devil. Was this prayer answered?

19. The believer to be with Christ in glory.

John 17:24: “Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.”

20. The believer shall never hunger.

John 6:35: “And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.”

21. The believer will in no wise be cast out (Not under any circumstance).

John 6:37: “All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.”

22. Christ will not lose a single believer.

John 6:39: “And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.”

23. Christ will raise up the believer at the last day.

John 6:38-40: “For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.”

24. Whosoever eats the bread of life shall never die.

John 6:51: “I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live forever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.”

25. Because the Holy Spirit abides in the believer forever.

John 14:16-17: “And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you forever; even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.”

26. Because it is the Father’s will that Christ should lose nothing.

John 6:39: “And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.”

27. Because one cannot be unborn.

John 3:5: “Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.”

28. The believer will follow Christ.

John 10:27: “My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me.” Following Christ, can one be lost? Have we any right to add to God’s Word by inserting if” to the passage?

29. The believers continue with God.

1 John 2:19: “They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.”

30. Because it is the believer’s faith that overcomes the world.

1 John 5:4: “For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.”

31. Because of the record that God hath given.

1 John 5:10-11: “He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son. And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.”

32. The believer is to be like Christ.

1 John 3:2: “Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.”

33. The believer is kept by the power of God.

1 Peter 1:5: “Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.”

34. The man who believes shall be saved.

Acts 16:31: “And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.”

35. The believer has been saved.

Ephesians 2:8-9: “For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: not of works, lest any man should boast.

36. The believer is hid by God in Christ.

Colossians 3:3: “For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.” Can the devil find that which God hides?

37. The believer shall not come into condemnation.

John 5:24: “Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.”

38. There is now therefore no condemnation for the believer.

Romans 8:1: “There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.”

39. The believer is sealed by the Holy Spirit.

Ephesians 1:13: “In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise.”

40. The believer is sealed for a definite time, the day of redemption, or the resurrection of the body.

Ephesians 4:30: “And grieve not the Holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.”

41. The believer liveth and abideth forever.

1 Peter 1:23: “Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth forever.”

42. The believer is dead to sin.

Romans 6:2: “God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?”

43. The believer will appear with Christ in glory.

Colossians 3:4: “When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.”

44. The life of the believer is Christ’s life.

Colossians 3:4: “When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.”

45. Since Christ cannot die again, the believer is eternally secure.

Romans 6:9-10: “Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him. For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.”

46. The believer is saved through faith not by works.

Ephesians 2:8-9: “For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.”

47. This faith a gift from God.

Romans 6:23: “For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.”

Ephesians 2:8-9: “For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.”

48. The believer is not saved by what he does, but by what Christ has done for him.

Titus 3:5: “Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost.”

Romans 4:5: “But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.”

49. Salvation is a gift, not a wage.

Romans 6:23: “For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord."

50. The believer’s hope is a living hope.

1 Peter 1:3: “Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead.”

51. The believer’s hope will not fade away. Will not grow dim.

1 Peter 1:4-5: “To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.”

52. The believer’s hope is reserved (set aside) in heaven for him.

1 Peter 1:4: “To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you.”

53. The believer’s inheritance is incorruptible.

1 Peter 1:4: “To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you.”

54. The believer’s inheritance cannot be defiled.

1 Peter 1:4: “To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away reserved in heaven for you.”

55. The believer is kept through faith.

1 Peter 1:4-5: (See reasons number 36 and 37): “to an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.”

56. The believer to be revealed in the last time.

1 Peter 1:5: “Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.”

The believer is more than conqueror through Christ.

Romans 8:37: “Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.”

57. The believer justified by faith, to be saved from wrath.

Romans 5:9: “Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.”

58. Nothing can separate the believer from Christ.

Romans 8:38-39: “For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.”

59. Christ will complete salvation until the end.

Philippians 1:6: “Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ.”

60. The believer to be preserved spirit, soul, and body.

1 Thessalonians 5:23: “And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.”

61. God cannot lie.

Titus 1:2: “In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began.”

62. Jesus is able to save unto the uttermost.

Hebrews 7:25: “Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.”

63. The believer is born of incorruptible seed.

1 Peter 1:23: “Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth forever.” Can the devil corrupt that which God says is incorruptible?

64. The believer is perfected forever.

Hebrews 10:14: “For by one offering he hath perfected forever them that are sanctified.”

65. The believer believes unto the saving of his soul.

Hebrews 10:38-39: “Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him. But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.”

66. The believer made righteous through Christ’s obedience.

Romans 5:18-19: “Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.”

67. Because all things work together for good to the believer.

Romans 8:28: “And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.”

68. Because the believer is so helpless that he cannot place his sins upon Christ. God must do it for him. Therefore salvation is by grace.

Isaiah 53:6: “All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.”

69. Because Christ did not come to help us, but to save us.

Luke 19:10: “For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost.”

70. Because God, not being a man, cannot lie.

Numbers 23:19: “God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?”

71. Because His mercy endureth forever.

Psalm 136: Twenty-six times in this Psalm it is written His mercy endureth forever.”

72. Because the believer has not yet borne the image of the heavenly.

1 Corinthians 15:49: “And as we have borne the image of the earthly, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.”

73. Because the believer is preserved unto the heavenly kingdom.

2 Timothy 4:18: “And the Lord shall deliver me from every evil work, and will preserve me unto his heavenly kingdom: to whom be glory forever and ever.”

74. Because the believer is the object of God’s mercy, not His wrath.

Ephesians 2:4: “But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us.”

John 3:36: “He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.”

1 Thessalonians 5:9-10: “For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ, Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.”

75. Because a sealed and witnessed transaction is final.

Ephesians 1:13: “In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise.” Sealed by the Spirit.

Hebrews 10:15: “Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us.”

76. Salvation is obtained, not attained.

Hebrews 9:12: “Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.”

77. Because the believer is a new creation. Created in Christ Jesus. Therefore eternal in righteousness.

Ephesians 4:24: “And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.”

78. Because the Father reckons the sinner:

Romans 6:3-5: “Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection.”

Ephesians 2:4-6: “But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved); And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus.”

79. Because all believers will be changed at Christ’s coming.

1 Corinthians 15:51-52: “Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.”

 

[PennEd]

80. Because of the “MUST” of 1 Corinthians 15:53.

1 Corinthians 15:23: “For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.”

81. Because the power of God is not limited.

Matthew 28:18-19: “And Jesus came and spake to them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.”

1 Peter 1:5: “Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.”

82. Because the saints are preserved forever.

Psalms 37:28: “For the Lord loveth judgment, and forsaketh not his saints; they are preserved forever: but the seed of the wicked shall be cut off.”

83. Because nothing can separate us from the love of Christ.

Romans 8:35: “Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?”

The answer NO” is demanded by the passage to the question.

84. Because God will not forget the believer.

Isaiah 49:15: “Can a woman forget her sucking child, that she should not have compassion on the son of her womb? yea, they may forget, yet I will not forget thee.”

85. Because the new covenant in His blood, is an everlasting covenant.

Jeremiah 32:40: “And I will make an everlasting covenant with them, that I will not turn away from them, to do them good; but I will put my fear in their hearts, that they shall not depart from me.”

86. Because the believer has ceased from his own works.

Hebrews 4:10: “For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.” It is God that works in the believer.

87. Because we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Christ once for all.

Hebrews 10:10: “By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.”

88. Because the believer has already been redeemed (Past tense).

2 Peter 1:18-19: “Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot.”

89. Because the believer’s salvation is begun and finished by Christ.

Hebrews 12:2: “Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.”

90. Because salvation is by grace, and not by any mixture of grace and works.

Romans 11:6: “And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.”

91. Because Christ died. rose again, and intercedes for born again believers.

Romans 8:37: “Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.”

Hebrews 7:25: “Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.”

92. Because God predestined believers in His Truth according to His foreknowledge before the foundation of the world to be conformed to the image of his Son, and then, in time, He calls and justifies us, and finally He will glorify us.

Romans 8:29-30: “For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.”

Ephesians 1:5, 7, 11, 13: "Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will ... In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace ... In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: ... In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation ..."

2 Corinthians 2:13: "... God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth."

93. Because salvation IS salvation.

Hebrews 5:9: "And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him; Called of God an high priest after the order of Melchisedec."

Hebrews 7:25: "Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them."

94. The believer cannot perish.

John 3:16: “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.”

95. Because God’s promise that through the offering of Christ He will put away the believer’s sins, and will remember them no more.

Hebrews 10:17: “And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.”

96. Because God is for us!

Romans 8:31: "What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?"

97. God chastens His children rather than exiling them to Hell.

1 Corinthians 11:31-32: "For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged. But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world."

98. God allows His children to suffer loss of rewards in Heaven rather than exiling them to Hell.

1 Corinthians 3:11-15: "For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; Every man’s work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man’s work of what sort it is. If any man’s work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man’s work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire."

99. God allows His children to suffer shame at His coming rather than exiling them to Hell.

1 John 2:28: "And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming."

100. Because God is greater than our heart.

1 John 3:20: "For if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things."

101. God is able to save and keep us.

2 Timothy 1:12: "... I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day."

Jude 1:24: "Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy, to the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen."

 

[stonesoffire]

Blow winds upon your gardens...

 

[Meggido]

I'm sorry to say that you don't even understand what I said.

Study the different types of Law in the Old Testament.

Stop swerving because your doctrine got caught coming up short ..and FWIW some of the OT laws were in the passage I quoted, if you cannot see that, then you are in far worse deception than is evident.

Typical response when confronted with the truth....

 

[Meggido]

What is the doctrine he built?

I might also add that one cannot take a verse or two and make a doctrine out of it,
but Willybod posted MANY.

His doctrine is salvation is worked for through obedience to a set of laws already fulfilled through Christ..

 

[Chris1975]

 

[Meggido]

"fruit doesn't show that they are God's kids. Many people fake it and don't really trust Jesus for their salvation.

Yet Jesus said that fruit is proof you are his disciple, and you said adamantly it does not mean that, would you like to explain yourself, or humbly take it back?

John 15.8

[SUP]8 [/SUP]My Father is glorified by this, that you bear much fruit, and so prove to be My disciples.

Bearing fruit has zero to do with salvation Ariel.

 

[stonesoffire]

well, get off it Chris and fly with the wind.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Why are you so afraid of works?
God's grace falls on you no matter what?

Do you think that by doing works, God will give you less grace?

do you think by doing works, God will give you more?

And again, Who is preaching against works? No one here that I have ever seen preaches against doing Gods will, and being obedient, the only people I see even claim this is your side when you judge us and say we preach against works. which is FALSE!

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I actually got what Fran was saying in the post you quoted.

We are justified when we are saved and will be sanctified throughout our whole life.

It seems on that point you both are in agreement,

I did not see this in her post.

I saw that we are not completely justified until the end, and we must justify ourselves. (you called it progressive justification, I call it legalistic justification, because it is a justification of self. also known as self righteousness (since the word justify also means righteous, same word in greek)

and those who call that sanctification (you and I and others) are in error.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

something many might not know: The Hebrew children received the moral law of God at Mt Sinai, they were to be crossing over to the promised land shortly after that, But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness. Hence the Law of Moses was added on because of DISOBEDIENCE/UNBELIEF/SIN, until the coming of Christ Gal, 3-19. therefore a 12 day trek turned out to be a 40 year misery and perishing in the wilderness, for they lusted (which gives birth to sin) after all manner of evil things, Now all these things happened unto them for our example: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.....Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.


OBEDIENCE
[TABLE="width: 90%"]
[TR]
[TD="width: 20%"]1 Romans 1:5[/TD]
[TD]By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 20%"]2 Romans 5:19[/TD]
[TD]For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 20%"]3 Romans 6:16[/TD]
[TD]Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 20%"]4 Romans 16:19[/TD]
[TD]For your obedience is come abroad unto all men. I am glad therefore on your behalf: but yet I would have you wise unto that which is good, and simple concerning evil.
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 20%"]5 Romans 16:26[/TD]
[TD]But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 20%"]6 1 Corinthians 14:34[/TD]
[TD]Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law.
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 20%"]7 2 Corinthians 7:15[/TD]
[TD]And his inward affection is more abundant toward you, whilst he remembereth the obedience of you all, how with fear and trembling ye received him.
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 20%"]8 2 Corinthians 10:5[/TD]
[TD]Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 20%"]9 2 Corinthians 10:6[/TD]
[TD]And having in a readiness to revenge all disobedience, when your obedience is fulfilled.
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 20%"]10 Philemon 1:21[/TD]
[TD]Having confidence in thy obedience I wrote unto thee, knowing that thou wilt also do more than I say.
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 20%"]11 Hebrews 5:8[/TD]
[TD]Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 20%"]12 1 Peter 1:2[/TD]
[TD]Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

THE CONSEQUENCES OF DISOBEDIENCE
[TABLE="width: 90%"]
[TR]
[TD="width: 20%"][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 20%"]2 Corinthians 10:6[/TD]
[TD]And having in a readiness to revenge all disobedience, when your obedience is fulfilled.[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 20%"]3 Ephesians 2:2[/TD]
[TD]Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 20%"]4 Ephesians 5:6[/TD]
[TD]Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 20%"]5 Colossians 3:6[/TD]
[TD]For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 20%"]6 Hebrews 2:2[/TD]
[TD]For if the word spoken by angels was stedfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just recompence of reward;[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

You just condemned yourself. Unless you are perfect. Because as deut 27 shows, Moses and God demanded perfect obedience to the law. And the only person who ever fulfilled that was Christ.

ps you also condemned moses, He could not do it either, nor could abraham, David (the murderer) etc etc..

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Found a good explanation of SANCTIFICATION for those reading along...





What is Sanctification?


The definition, which fits nicely with what the Bible teaches, is that it means to be set apart for holy use. It also means to make holy or to purify. This is exactly the goal of every believer in Christ. Like the Old Testament Temple vessels used by the priest, these were to be used for holy purposes and to be pure and to glorify God.

Today, Christians have been regenerated by the Holy Spirit and our bodies are the temple of God in which dwells the Holy Spirit and our bodies are vessels to be used for a holy or pure purpose for the glory of God. The origin of this word is from the Latin “sanctus” which means holy or to consecrate. The suffix of “tion” in sanctification is the ongoing or continuing process of this becoming holy. It is a progressive holiness and growing in purity and it takes a lifetime. We are being perfected and this perfection takes time and patience.

I thank God that He is patient with me in this process. We can not see much of our own progress until we start looking back at last year, and the year before and then ten years ago. There should be noticeable differences in a person’s life that are tangible evidences of growth.


I believe true character is revealed when no one is watching. If you can imagine that you are a parent and you leave your teenager at home; what that teenager does at home alone is a revelation of their true character. It is not so much what we do when others are watching but what we do when nobody is watching. What people think of us when they see our actions is what we might think we are truly like and it’s probably the way people think we are. When we are alone and only God is watching is the true test of who we are.


Joseph’s Sanctification

What is Sanctification
The Bible teaches that sanctification means to be set apart for holy use.

Joseph is an excellent example of the process of sanctification. Joseph was treated unfairly when his brothers sold him into slavery. He would later end up in prison through no fault of his own. His character was revealed when he refused to blame God and turn bitter while languishing in prison for many years. Joseph was in charge of Potiphar’s house. Potiphar was the Captain of Pharaoh’s Guard. Next to the Pharaoh, this was probably the greatest position of power in all of Egypt. Potiphar trusted Joseph enough to leave him in charge of his entire household (Gen 39:5) and when Potiphar’s wife tried to seduce him, Joseph refused.

Potiphar must have had a beautiful wife and this lady had to have had great riches. When she tried to grab Joseph to lie with her, he not only ran but he ran so fast he left his cloak. He left his cloak but kept his character. When fighting temptations to sin, the Christian can do one of two things; fight or flight. That is, we can resist temptation and fight it through prayer or we can take flight.

James said when we are tempted we must resist the devil and he will flee from us (James 4:7) but Paul said we must flee from sexual temptation, indicating we shouldn’t just resist but run (1 Cor 6:18)!


Can you imagine how hard it was for Joseph to resist this urge, day after day? This temptation must have gone on for many days, remember, Potiphar‘s wife had to be one of the most beautiful women of Egypt. At times like these, the work of the Holy Spirit is indispensable, able to convict us of things that we know are clearly wrong. Not only did Joseph not want to violate God’s law but he said, “How then could I do such a wicked thing and sin against God” (Gen 39:9)?

Joseph thought about God when he was tempted and that is sanctification at work. When Joseph refused to give into temptation, he sanctified God’s Name by his doing what was right. When we glorify God in our bodies, we are being sanctified and we glorify God by our decisions to not sin against Him. In this case, Joseph sanctified the name of God, even in private, where there would have been no eyewitnesses.

Joseph’s refusal to sin and his fleeing temptation is the perfect model of holiness and it is how we can also avoid sin. This is the process of sanctification. That is exactly the way the Holy Spirit works in us today in sanctifying us. He tells us when something is wrong, and if we are in a compromising situation we should run, just like Joseph did.


God the Holy Spirit tells us when something isn’t quite right. He tells us when we are not in a good situation and it is often that quiet, still small voice much like the human conscience. Life is not fair and during such times our growing in holiness or sanctification can be increased. Even when we are in the will of God, there will be times of injustice, like when Joseph was unfairly thrown into prison.

We can justify our sin more easily in times like these and in times of prosperity. What is really pleasing to God is when we do justly when no one is watching and still do so when we are suffering unjustly.


Your Sanctification is the Will of God

God’s ultimate aim is for us to be sanctified and grow in holiness, but unless you are regenerated or born again, you have no hope to be sanctified because sanctification takes the power of the Holy Spirit. It is impossible by human effort. Paul says that “…the sinful nature desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the sinful nature.

They are in conflict with each other, so that you do not do what you want” (Gal 5:17). What is God’s will for your life? To be sanctified and to grow in holiness for God says, “Be holy because I, the LORD your God, am holy” (Lev 19:2). Paul knew this as he wrote, “It is God’s will that you should be sanctified: that you should avoid sexual immorality” (I Thess 4:3). This is exactly why “he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love” (Eph 1:4).
How to be Sanctified


As stated earlier, we must be regenerated by the Holy Spirit. We must place our trust in Christ to save us and have faith in the Savior. If our trust and faith is in our self, in our own works, then we will fail miserably. How does this happen then except by the will of God and by His power, for “you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God” (1 Cor 6:11).

The key portion of that is “by the Spirit of our God.” It’s not something you do by superhuman effort but by the power of the Holy Spirit and we were justified and “have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all” (Heb 10:10). I don’t see anything about me and my efforts here but we do see in Joseph’s example that he did have to flee temptation and resist evil, so it’s not like we don’t participate in the process at all. It does take time to grow in holiness so don’t expect it to happen overnight (2 Pet 3:18).


Paul writes, “Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already arrived at my goal, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me. Brothers and sisters, I do not consider myself yet to have taken hold of it. But one thing I do: Forgetting what is behind and straining toward what is ahead, I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus” (Phil 3:12-14).

Listen to what Paul had to contribute toward his attaining holiness and how he had to be proactive: He pressed on, he had a goal, he took hold, he forgot the past, and he strained toward it. Those are all the things that he did and Joseph did too. You don’t fall into sanctification, you cooperate with the Holy Spirit and you participate with Him in the process.

We see that it involves “sanctification in the Spirit” (1 Pet 1:2) and it is “sanctification by the Spirit“ (2 Thess 2:13) that “he might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word” (Eph 5:26). The “washing of water with the word” is a direct reference to the Word of God, the Bible.

When we read the Bible on a regular basis, this allows the Holy Spirit to sanctify us by the power that is in the Word. Remember there is real power in the active, living, sharper-than-a-two-edged-sword Word (Heb 4:12). It washes us…cleanses us…and gives us access to the power of the Holy Spirit which is the same power of God that raised Christ from the dead!


Conclusion


Sanctification takes a lifetime. We will never be completely perfected until that day of His return. We must resist temptation, flee from sin, press on, take hold, have a goal, strain toward, and read the Word of God. These allow the Holy Spirit to work in us, with us, and through us by cooperating and being proactive to avoid sinning against God.

We are told to be a living sacrifice. The only problem with being a living sacrifice is that it can crawl off the altar. Paul gives us a fitting conclusion: “I urge you, brothers and sisters, in view of God’s mercy, to offer your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and pleasing to God—this is your true and proper worship. Do not conform to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will” (Rom 12:1-2).


Read more: What is Sanctification? A Bible Study

this is an excellent quote from what I see.

As it said, We will never be completely sanctified until the return of Christ And we can not sanctify ourselves.

However, as it as said, we have been made holy by the one sacrifice of christ once and for all (Heb 10: 10) But our sanctification continues until the day we die (we are always in a state of growth, As paul said, He has not yet arrived, I say this, if paul did not arrive, I would be foolish to think I can come close to him)

Anyway, it fits with what we have been posting all along.

which if we look just past Heb 10: 10, says it all..

[SUP]10 [/SUP]By that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.............. [SUP]14 [/SUP]For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified.

Here the author of Hebrews speaks of positional sanctification, and how it is once and done, it is complete. It is perfected. But yet our sanctification is also ongoing (conditional sanctification) and as the author said, will continue until we meet Christ.

so again, I am confused, this is what we have been saying all along, and what you have been fighting against. why is that?