Dan. 9
- Thread starter Rainrider
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
I disagree with your idea, however it is better then most that have the Temple of God being built while the church is still here. A question for you, after God has established salvation through Jesus Christ alone, that NO MAN can come to the Father except through Jesus Christ, then why would God allow the Jews to come to Him through Temple worship and animal sacrifices??
the third year of the reign of king Belshazzar a vision appeared unto me, even unto me Daniel, after that which appeared unto me at the first. 2And I saw in the vision; now it was so, that when I saw, I was in Shushan the castle, which is in the province of Elam; and I saw in the vision, and I was by the stream Ulai. 3And I lifted up mine eyes, and saw, and, behold, there stood before the stream a ram which had two horns; and the two horns were high; but one was higher than the other, and the higher came up last. 4I saw the ram pushing westward, and northward, and southward; and no beasts could stand before him, neither was there any that could deliver out of his hand; but he did according to his will, and magnified himself.5And as I was considering, behold, a he-goat came from the west over the face of the whole earth, and touched not the ground; and the goat had a conspicuous horn between his eyes. 6And he came to the ram that had the two horns, which I saw standing before the stream, and ran at him in the fury of his power. 7And I saw him come close unto the ram, and he was moved with choler against him, and smote the ram, and broke his two horns; and there was no power in the ram to stand before him; but he cast him down to the ground, and trampled upon him; and there was none that could deliver the ram out of his hand.8And the he-goat magnified himself exceedingly; and when he was strong, the great horn was broken; and instead of it there came up the appearance of four horns toward the four winds of heaven.
9And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the beauteous land. 10And it waxed great, even to the host of heaven; and some of the host and of the stars it cast down to the ground, and trampled upon them.11Yea, it magnified itself, even to the prince of the host; and from him the continual burnt-offering was taken away, and the place of his sanctuary was cast down.12And the host was given over to it together with the continual burnt-offering through transgression; and it cast down truth to the ground, and it wrought, and prospered.13Then I heard a holy one speaking; and another holy one said unto that certain one who spoke: ‘How long shall be the vision concerning the continual burnt-offering, and the transgression that causes appalment, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trampled under foot?’ 14And he said unto me: ‘Unto two thousand and three hundred evenings and mornings; then shall the sanctuary be victorious.’
15And it came to pass, when I, even I Daniel, had seen the vision, that I sought to understand it; and, behold, there stood before me as the appearance of a man. 16And I heard the voice of a man between the banks of Ulai, who called, and said: ‘Gabriel, make this man to understand the vision.’ 17So he came near where I stood; and when he came, I was terrified, and fell upon my face; but he said unto me: ‘Understand, O son of man; for the vision belongeth to the time of the end.’ 18Now as he was speaking with me, I fell into a deep sleep with my face toward the ground; but he touched me, and set me upright. 19And he said: ‘Behold, I will make thee know what shall be in the latter time of the indignation; for it belongeth to the appointed time of the end.20The ram which thou sawest having the two horns, they are the kings of Media and Persia. 21And the rough he-goat is the king of Greece; and the great horn that is between his eyes is the first king.22And as for that which was broken, in the place whereof four stood up, four kingdoms shall stand up out of the nation, but not with his power. 23And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors have completed their transgression, there shall stand up a king of fierce countenance, and understanding stratagems. 24And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power; and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper and do; and he shall destroy them that are mighty and the people of the saints. 25And through his cunning he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and in time of security shall he destroy many; he shall also stand up against the prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand. 26And the vision of the evenings and mornings which hath been told is true; but thou, shut thou up the vision; for it belongeth to many days to come.’ 27And I Daniel fainted, and was sick certain days; then I rose up, and did the king’s business; and I was appalled at the vision, but understood it not.
9And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the beauteous land. 10And it waxed great, even to the host of heaven; and some of the host and of the stars it cast down to the ground, and trampled upon them.11Yea, it magnified itself, even to the prince of the host; and from him the continual burnt-offering was taken away, and the place of his sanctuary was cast down.12And the host was given over to it together with the continual burnt-offering through transgression; and it cast down truth to the ground, and it wrought, and prospered.13Then I heard a holy one speaking; and another holy one said unto that certain one who spoke: ‘How long shall be the vision concerning the continual burnt-offering, and the transgression that causes appalment, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trampled under foot?’ 14And he said unto me: ‘Unto two thousand and three hundred evenings and mornings; then shall the sanctuary be victorious.’
15And it came to pass, when I, even I Daniel, had seen the vision, that I sought to understand it; and, behold, there stood before me as the appearance of a man. 16And I heard the voice of a man between the banks of Ulai, who called, and said: ‘Gabriel, make this man to understand the vision.’ 17So he came near where I stood; and when he came, I was terrified, and fell upon my face; but he said unto me: ‘Understand, O son of man; for the vision belongeth to the time of the end.’ 18Now as he was speaking with me, I fell into a deep sleep with my face toward the ground; but he touched me, and set me upright. 19And he said: ‘Behold, I will make thee know what shall be in the latter time of the indignation; for it belongeth to the appointed time of the end.20The ram which thou sawest having the two horns, they are the kings of Media and Persia. 21And the rough he-goat is the king of Greece; and the great horn that is between his eyes is the first king.22And as for that which was broken, in the place whereof four stood up, four kingdoms shall stand up out of the nation, but not with his power. 23And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors have completed their transgression, there shall stand up a king of fierce countenance, and understanding stratagems. 24And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power; and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper and do; and he shall destroy them that are mighty and the people of the saints. 25And through his cunning he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and in time of security shall he destroy many; he shall also stand up against the prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand. 26And the vision of the evenings and mornings which hath been told is true; but thou, shut thou up the vision; for it belongeth to many days to come.’ 27And I Daniel fainted, and was sick certain days; then I rose up, and did the king’s business; and I was appalled at the vision, but understood it not.
Blade runner
guard your heart
the craftsmen will go out and with that attitude of heart (which you are showing) will not be marked
do you know what I mean
GOD, during the time of sorrows, will put a mark on the foreheads of those who will be appalled (sick and troubled like Daniel) by all the atrocities that will come upon the earth in the time of Jacobs trouble
(ref Ezekiel 9)
guard your heart
the craftsmen will go out and with that attitude of heart (which you are showing) will not be marked
do you know what I mean
GOD, during the time of sorrows, will put a mark on the foreheads of those who will be appalled (sick and troubled like Daniel) by all the atrocities that will come upon the earth in the time of Jacobs trouble
(ref Ezekiel 9)
Last edited:
The church won't be here
a lot of believers will die because they will open their mouths to warn their Jewish older brothers that the building of the temple is not needed and is actually against the truth They will try to show the Jews their error. But the Jews will think that Christians are meddlers and are interfering in the work of building the temple
a lot of believers will die because they will open their mouths to warn their Jewish older brothers that the building of the temple is not needed and is actually against the truth They will try to show the Jews their error. But the Jews will think that Christians are meddlers and are interfering in the work of building the temple
Because you are not God Ahwatukee. You might like to think so, but I can assure you, you are not he.
[FONT="]2 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
Let no man deceive you. (Agree/disagree?)
BEFORE Christ returns, the Antichrist sits in the Temple as God (Agree/disagree?)
As an object of worship (Agree/disagree?)
So that is an Abomination right there.
How do you propose that Christ returns, that the Antichrist is not actually destroyed, but miraculously survives, then he sets up the Levitical Order for 3.5 years, and then he dissolves it and creates an Abomination.
It is simply not possible. The Levites killed Christ for claiming to be God, so you cannot have the Antichrist being worshipped as God under Temple conditions.
Paul is explicit. The Church will see the Man Of Sin. You are proposing the Church escapes, and then the Man of Sin is enthroned. WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG.
In the name of Jesus, stop confusing people[/FONT]
[FONT="]2 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
Let no man deceive you. (Agree/disagree?)
BEFORE Christ returns, the Antichrist sits in the Temple as God (Agree/disagree?)
As an object of worship (Agree/disagree?)
So that is an Abomination right there.
How do you propose that Christ returns, that the Antichrist is not actually destroyed, but miraculously survives, then he sets up the Levitical Order for 3.5 years, and then he dissolves it and creates an Abomination.
It is simply not possible. The Levites killed Christ for claiming to be God, so you cannot have the Antichrist being worshipped as God under Temple conditions.
Paul is explicit. The Church will see the Man Of Sin. You are proposing the Church escapes, and then the Man of Sin is enthroned. WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG.
In the name of Jesus, stop confusing people[/FONT]
Not in direct terms. However, if the anti-christ is to defile the Holy of Holies, then by mandate there must be a Temple. Being as we don't have one today, then it stands to reason that a 3rd has been alluded to in prophecy. If not, then please fill me in, how can Daniel 9:27 be fulfilled with out one?
Ahwatukee is saying that Christ raptures the Church and then leaves Apostate Israel and the Rest of The World to experience Wrath, under the Antichrist.
This is totally false.
Paul explains that Wrath comes to Apostate Israel first: "to the Jew and also the Greek (proselytized jews) first."
That is why the Wrath is finished, done. Happened in AD 70.
How can Wrath come to apostate Israel after the Church has been removed? Impossible, because that would mean that the wrath is simultaneously on apostate Israel and The World, and that contravenes Romans:
Romans 2:9
There will be anguish and distress for everyone who does evil, the Jew first and also the Greek,
This is totally false.
Paul explains that Wrath comes to Apostate Israel first: "to the Jew and also the Greek (proselytized jews) first."
That is why the Wrath is finished, done. Happened in AD 70.
How can Wrath come to apostate Israel after the Church has been removed? Impossible, because that would mean that the wrath is simultaneously on apostate Israel and The World, and that contravenes Romans:
Romans 2:9
There will be anguish and distress for everyone who does evil, the Jew first and also the Greek,
You said, "It is at this time, the Anti-Christ is probably killed with a head wound, resurrected by Jesus as Satan does not have those powers."
On this I simply can't agree.
Rev 13:3 ¶I saw that one of the heads of the beast seemed wounded beyond recovery—but the fatal wound was healed! The whole world marveled at this miracle and gave allegiance to the beast.
As we can see, this, (at lest in my mind), makes it clear that only one head seemed to wounded beyond recovery. One thing I am sure of here, is that a beast always points to a political system, Government, or ruling power. That leads to my take on this. Right or wrong I will only know for sure when I get to ask HaShem. Yet, if one looks back at history, (that is if we can truly trust it), we find that in 1918, Islam was dealt a deadly blow. You see with the end of WW1, The Ottoman Empire signed a treaty that ended their system of government. With the loss of the Caliphate, Islam was devastated. In fact it came real close to becoming a foot note in history. This is why after almost 100 years, they are seeking to instate a caliphate, and rebuild the Empire that had been taken from them.
Recap. Deadly blow, loss of the Caliphate.
healing of the wound, the rebirth of the Caliphate.
On this I simply can't agree.
Rev 13:3 ¶I saw that one of the heads of the beast seemed wounded beyond recovery—but the fatal wound was healed! The whole world marveled at this miracle and gave allegiance to the beast.
As we can see, this, (at lest in my mind), makes it clear that only one head seemed to wounded beyond recovery. One thing I am sure of here, is that a beast always points to a political system, Government, or ruling power. That leads to my take on this. Right or wrong I will only know for sure when I get to ask HaShem. Yet, if one looks back at history, (that is if we can truly trust it), we find that in 1918, Islam was dealt a deadly blow. You see with the end of WW1, The Ottoman Empire signed a treaty that ended their system of government. With the loss of the Caliphate, Islam was devastated. In fact it came real close to becoming a foot note in history. This is why after almost 100 years, they are seeking to instate a caliphate, and rebuild the Empire that had been taken from them.
Recap. Deadly blow, loss of the Caliphate.
healing of the wound, the rebirth of the Caliphate.
You have a very strange reasoning process! First of all, and God knows this, I do not consider myself to be God. And second, God gave us His word so that we could know it and proclaim it. I understand His plan and that because of what Jesus said to all true believers:
"When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth, for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come."
So I share these things and because they don't agree with what you believe, you say I have God complex. I have been studying and being taught by the Spirit for over 40 years, so I am not going to pretend that I don't know what God's word says because it offends those those who are unlearned and have given themselves over to false teachers and their teachings.
Wrong!
"Don’t you remember that when I was with you I used to tell you these things?And now you know what is holding him back, so that he may be revealed at the proper time. For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way. And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming."
The One holding back the man of lawlessness = Holy Spirit through the indwelling of the church
Until He is taken out of the way = The removal of the Holy Spirit and the church with Him
Then the lawless one will be revealed
1). Apostasy
2). The appearing of the Lord and our being gathered
3). Then the lawless one will be revealed
The scripture is not saying:
Apostasy
Man of lawlessness is revealed
The appearing of the Lord and our being gathered
The church will never see the man of lawless, the antichrist
Yes I agree, the antichrist must set up that abomination and stand in the temple proclaiming himself to be God before Jesus can return. Your error, as it is the same with many other expositors, is that you don't understand that the gathering of the church is a completely different event from the Lord's return to the earth to end the age.
The Lord's appearing and our being gathered to Him takes place prior to the first seal being opened. And the Lord's return to the earth to end the age takes place after the completion of God's wrath i.e. after the 7th bowl has been poured out. Those who will have been resurrected and the living who will have been changed, will be those who are seen wearing white linen, white and clean and riding on white horses following the Lord out of heaven to the earth, as revealed in Rev.19:14. We are those "called, chosen and faithful followers who return with Him (Rev.17:14)
What you are not taking into consideration is that, since Israel didn't receive Jesus as their Messiah, they are still waiting for His first arrival. When that antichrist comes, the first counterfeit miracle that he will perform will be to receive a fatal wound, (something that is not survivable) but he will survive it. And because of this, the world will be in amazement over this and will be in admiration over him. In addition to this, his side-kick, the false prophet, will be performing miraculous signs, even causing fire to come down out of heaven in full view of the world on behalf of the first beast, i.e. to authenticate his claim of being God.
"They tell how you turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God, and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead—Jesus, who rescues us from the coming wrath."
We, the believers in Christ, are not appointed to suffer God's wrath. The setting up of the abomination takes place in the middle of the seven years, which is well into the wrath of God and therefore the church cannot be here.
So, the church does escape and because Jesus said that he would rescue us from God's coming wrath. And the reason that we cannot be here during the time of God's wrath, is because Jesus already experienced God's wrath on behalf of every believer. To send leave his church here during the time of his wrath would be like a double payment and as though Christ suffered for nothing.
I'm confusing people? You're telling them that, though they have been forgiven and have eternal life and are the bride of Christ, that they are still going to have to go through God's wrath. You're basically saying that there is no difference between those who have been credited with righteousness vs. those the wicked who continue to reject Christ, that both are going to be exposed to God's wrath.
I am telling people what scripture states, that the Lord is going to appear and gather his church, his bride, because they are not appointed to suffer God's coming wrath. It would certainly be no blessed hope if the church was to remain here on earth for those judgments. Nor could believers comfort one another with the hope of being changed and caught up if that was to take place after God's wrath.
You need to understand that there is a difference between the trials and tribulation that the Lord said believers would have vs. the coming, unprecedented wrath of God. The first century church and those in different parts of the world today are suffering those trials and tribulations. But what is coming will be unprecedented and will be world-wide, so there would be no place for the church to hide. Only the woman/Israel and the great tribulation saints will be here during the time of God's wrath, but the church will have already been removed.
As I continue to proclaim, 69 of the 70 sevens have been fulfilled with the Messiah being cut off at the end of them. At that time God put that last seven on hold and began to build the church. Once the church has been completed, the Lord will then appear and gather the church taking them back to the Father's house. Following that God will pick up where he left off fulfilling that last seven years.
We as believers should always be prepared to keep the testimony of Jesus and the word of God even with the threat of persecution and death. But what we do not have to be worried about, is being exposed to God's coming wrath.
Last edited:
The other problem you have is that all the advice in Matthew 24 is to the Church, believers. But you want us, well some of us, to believe that this verse is advice being given to unbelievers:
15 “So when you see the desolating sacrilege standing in the holy place, as was spoken of by the prophet Daniel (let the reader understand), 16 then those in Judea must flee to the mountains;
So what is it: Wrath with a sprinkling of mercy, or Wrath?
15 “So when you see the desolating sacrilege standing in the holy place, as was spoken of by the prophet Daniel (let the reader understand), 16 then those in Judea must flee to the mountains;
So what is it: Wrath with a sprinkling of mercy, or Wrath?
Why in the heck would Jesus tell His Jewish Christian disciples then to go preach the gospel message to the JEW first, then the gentile?
As I posted before, Paul proclaimed all of those 6 events/conditions to be fulfilled in Daniel 9:24, in which you ignore. Are these six events just true for the non-Jew? No, 70 weeks are determined for YOUR CiTY (Jerusalem). If Paul proclaims all these events fulfilled then your interpretation has to be wrong. You contradict Paul and many clear passages of the NT.
This notion that God has two plans is absurd...Remember Jesus said to preach to the Jew first! the First Fruits of Christ were all Jewish. The 1st Century Jewish believers were the remnant of earthly Israel and gentiles were added to it and are still being added to it. Praying for God to open your spiritual eyes so you can see.
As I posted before, Paul proclaimed all of those 6 events/conditions to be fulfilled in Daniel 9:24, in which you ignore. Are these six events just true for the non-Jew? No, 70 weeks are determined for YOUR CiTY (Jerusalem). If Paul proclaims all these events fulfilled then your interpretation has to be wrong. You contradict Paul and many clear passages of the NT.
This notion that God has two plans is absurd...Remember Jesus said to preach to the Jew first! the First Fruits of Christ were all Jewish. The 1st Century Jewish believers were the remnant of earthly Israel and gentiles were added to it and are still being added to it. Praying for God to open your spiritual eyes so you can see.
Because there were Jews who did believe in Jesus as their Messiah. Most of the apostles were of Israel. There are many Jewish believers, who after receiving Christ become apart of the church. Those of Israel who did not receive Jesus as Messiah belong to unbelieving Israel. It is that last generation of unbelieving Israel that God is going to deal with during that last seven years in fulfillment of the seventy sevens that were decreed upon them.
Every Jew who has received Jesus as Messiah from the on-set of the church until the resurrection, will be included in the resurrection as belonging to church, as well as those believing Jews who are alive at the time of the resurrection will be changed and caught up and that because they are considered to be apart of the church.
The Church = Jew and Gentiles
Israel = Unbelieving Israel
Every Jew who has received Jesus as Messiah from the on-set of the church until the resurrection, will be included in the resurrection as belonging to church, as well as those believing Jews who are alive at the time of the resurrection will be changed and caught up and that because they are considered to be apart of the church.
The Church = Jew and Gentiles
Israel = Unbelieving Israel