Not By Works
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Great point.
I just found this article.
I think I should start a thread on the Kingdom of God.
There is much misunderstanding about this.
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Salvation is a Journey, Not an Event
A huge problem with modern teachings of salvation is the notion that one can be saved apart from the visible reality of God’s Church. Over the last century or so a sort of you-can-get-saved-on-your-own theology has manifested its ugly head. It is really a cultish teaching when you begin to study its premise. Granted, God uses this type of teaching to further His kingdom, but remember, God will use a Donkey if he needs to…and has done so!
The Gospel, as described by Christ, begins as a small seed and grows into the largest plant in the garden. This means that the Gospel is an organic reality of heaven on earth that is actually growing from something to something. We, as people, begin to become grafted into this organic reality as St. Paul explains in Romans 11.
The Orthodox Church does not teach that salvation has to have some sort of radical, one time, psychological experience attached to it. One does not have to break down in a moment of time and recite a “sinner’s prayer.” Salvation does involve repentance, of course, but the way this repentance unfolds in many people looks quite different from what the modern church movements are claiming. Salvation is not about a sudden magical experience and then waiting until the end of our days. Salvation is about becoming one with Christ’s movement within time and space! It is about turning from one kingdom to another and continuing to draw away from the one kingdom into the other. The time that this takes to actually happen is not as important as making sure that God’s Spirit of salvation is actually happening within the convert’s life.
A Movement of People
The Orthodox Church is a part of the Universal Church. This Universal Church is a tangible reality of what Christ first initiated in his sacrifice and resurrection. It is an actual movement that is taking place within God’s kingdom that we as Orthodox have found a part in. This movement is eschatological; it is a work of the Spirit that spans time itself (from the ancient to the future).
And time itself is tantamount to its purpose. This means that the kingdom of God, as Christ says in the parable of the mustard seed, is growing from something very small to something very large. This growth will be founded on people and salvation has so much to do with how we convert to this movement of people. Salvation has everything to do with how Christ converts a person from following the path of destruction (what the world is eventually destined for) to following the path of Christ’s kingdom (what Christ is building on earth which will eventually and completely merge with paradise).
Christ explains in the Parable of the Wheat and Tares (Matthew 13) that there is a process in which the “seeds” (you and your calling) take root. This takes time! And to rely on some sort of psychological transaction is extremely dangerous! I am of the belief that many of those that rely so heavily on this type of conversion are those that actually fall away and become the “bad seeds”!
Becoming a rooted part of a garden takes much watering and cultivation. A seed does not just instantaneously become rooted and begin to sprout. It takes much cultivation for this to happen. Likewise, we should not assume that because the Bible describes that people “believed” as a result of preaching, that they somehow became rooted in to God’s kingdom all at once, instantaneously.
“Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done, on earth as it is in heaven…”
Christ, in the Gospels, as well as Paul, in Galatians, both use royal language to describe salvation. They are not creating a system to be saved, but rather they are pointing to the kingdom of Christ. Christ’s death and resurrection is the pinnacle of our salvation; and it is from this that the kingdom is established. It is through this kingdom that we are saved. What does this kingdom look like? It looks like what Christ calls “the Church,” both heavenly and earthly; the Church and all that it has to offer, both ecclesiastically as well as spiritually.
When a person “believes in Jesus” they are not saved from everything; that is, they are not in heaven with Christ and merely waiting for this earthly body to ascend to our “saved” body in heaven. We have but one body and soul and both are here on earth. When the Scriptures say that people are “saved” we should understand this to mean that God has saved us from something to something. The modern notion of “being saved” seems to imply some sort of being frozen and preserved, but the Scriptures clearly speak of being saved in more of an existential form, notwithstanding salvation’s heavenly/eternal benefits.
The people of the Old Covenant asked Jesus who would save them, not in a psychological sense but in an eschatological sense, (i.e. where are our people headed in the long run). They wanted to know who would bring them to the Promise Land. Other times in the Scriptures we see the term also being used in the more circumstantial sense but on a local and more cultural level. Luke says in Acts 2:39 and 40 that people are being saved from “an evil generation.”
What has happened within the modern movements is that Bible words have been abused and missused. Look at what the Gospel of Luke says in Luke 1:70-72
70 As He spoke by the mouth of His holy prophets,
Who have been since the world began,
71 That we should be saved from our enemies
And from the hand of all who hate us,
72 To perform the mercy promised to our fathers
And to remember His holy covenant,
Salvation, according to the Bible is not so much as a one time psychological event as it is God doing something in your life: bringing you to and through His Church so that you can begin to live for him and escape the snares and overall culture and eternal punishment of the devil.
vvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvv
I just found this article.
I think I should start a thread on the Kingdom of God.
There is much misunderstanding about this.
vvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvv
Salvation is a Journey, Not an Event
A huge problem with modern teachings of salvation is the notion that one can be saved apart from the visible reality of God’s Church. Over the last century or so a sort of you-can-get-saved-on-your-own theology has manifested its ugly head. It is really a cultish teaching when you begin to study its premise. Granted, God uses this type of teaching to further His kingdom, but remember, God will use a Donkey if he needs to…and has done so!
The Gospel, as described by Christ, begins as a small seed and grows into the largest plant in the garden. This means that the Gospel is an organic reality of heaven on earth that is actually growing from something to something. We, as people, begin to become grafted into this organic reality as St. Paul explains in Romans 11.
The Orthodox Church does not teach that salvation has to have some sort of radical, one time, psychological experience attached to it. One does not have to break down in a moment of time and recite a “sinner’s prayer.” Salvation does involve repentance, of course, but the way this repentance unfolds in many people looks quite different from what the modern church movements are claiming. Salvation is not about a sudden magical experience and then waiting until the end of our days. Salvation is about becoming one with Christ’s movement within time and space! It is about turning from one kingdom to another and continuing to draw away from the one kingdom into the other. The time that this takes to actually happen is not as important as making sure that God’s Spirit of salvation is actually happening within the convert’s life.
A Movement of People
The Orthodox Church is a part of the Universal Church. This Universal Church is a tangible reality of what Christ first initiated in his sacrifice and resurrection. It is an actual movement that is taking place within God’s kingdom that we as Orthodox have found a part in. This movement is eschatological; it is a work of the Spirit that spans time itself (from the ancient to the future).
And time itself is tantamount to its purpose. This means that the kingdom of God, as Christ says in the parable of the mustard seed, is growing from something very small to something very large. This growth will be founded on people and salvation has so much to do with how we convert to this movement of people. Salvation has everything to do with how Christ converts a person from following the path of destruction (what the world is eventually destined for) to following the path of Christ’s kingdom (what Christ is building on earth which will eventually and completely merge with paradise).
Christ explains in the Parable of the Wheat and Tares (Matthew 13) that there is a process in which the “seeds” (you and your calling) take root. This takes time! And to rely on some sort of psychological transaction is extremely dangerous! I am of the belief that many of those that rely so heavily on this type of conversion are those that actually fall away and become the “bad seeds”!
Becoming a rooted part of a garden takes much watering and cultivation. A seed does not just instantaneously become rooted and begin to sprout. It takes much cultivation for this to happen. Likewise, we should not assume that because the Bible describes that people “believed” as a result of preaching, that they somehow became rooted in to God’s kingdom all at once, instantaneously.
“Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done, on earth as it is in heaven…”
Christ, in the Gospels, as well as Paul, in Galatians, both use royal language to describe salvation. They are not creating a system to be saved, but rather they are pointing to the kingdom of Christ. Christ’s death and resurrection is the pinnacle of our salvation; and it is from this that the kingdom is established. It is through this kingdom that we are saved. What does this kingdom look like? It looks like what Christ calls “the Church,” both heavenly and earthly; the Church and all that it has to offer, both ecclesiastically as well as spiritually.
When a person “believes in Jesus” they are not saved from everything; that is, they are not in heaven with Christ and merely waiting for this earthly body to ascend to our “saved” body in heaven. We have but one body and soul and both are here on earth. When the Scriptures say that people are “saved” we should understand this to mean that God has saved us from something to something. The modern notion of “being saved” seems to imply some sort of being frozen and preserved, but the Scriptures clearly speak of being saved in more of an existential form, notwithstanding salvation’s heavenly/eternal benefits.
The people of the Old Covenant asked Jesus who would save them, not in a psychological sense but in an eschatological sense, (i.e. where are our people headed in the long run). They wanted to know who would bring them to the Promise Land. Other times in the Scriptures we see the term also being used in the more circumstantial sense but on a local and more cultural level. Luke says in Acts 2:39 and 40 that people are being saved from “an evil generation.”
What has happened within the modern movements is that Bible words have been abused and missused. Look at what the Gospel of Luke says in Luke 1:70-72
70 As He spoke by the mouth of His holy prophets,
Who have been since the world began,
71 That we should be saved from our enemies
And from the hand of all who hate us,
72 To perform the mercy promised to our fathers
And to remember His holy covenant,
Salvation, according to the Bible is not so much as a one time psychological event as it is God doing something in your life: bringing you to and through His Church so that you can begin to live for him and escape the snares and overall culture and eternal punishment of the devil.
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Why, you think I'm going to convince you or you're going to convince me?
We both know that is not going to happen.
So, of course, I write for those reading along. Many new Christians out there who need to hear the one and true gospel and Word of God. Not one made up by modern theologians.
So, let's see.
The fruit of the spirit.
Galatians 5.22-25
The Gifts of the Spirit
1 Corinthians 12:1-11
Obedience and Good Works
Sorry. It's all throughout the ENTIRE NEW TESTAMENT.
Just pick a page and read what God expects from us.
We both know that is not going to happen.
So, of course, I write for those reading along. Many new Christians out there who need to hear the one and true gospel and Word of God. Not one made up by modern theologians.
So, let's see.
The fruit of the spirit.
Galatians 5.22-25
The Gifts of the Spirit
1 Corinthians 12:1-11
Obedience and Good Works
Sorry. It's all throughout the ENTIRE NEW TESTAMENT.
Just pick a page and read what God expects from us.
N
Galatians 5:22-26
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.
26 Let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another.
1 Corinthians 12:1-11
12 Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I would not have you ignorant.
2 Ye know that ye were Gentiles, carried away unto these dumb idols, even as ye were led.
3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.
4 Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.
5 And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord.
6 And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.
7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.
8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;
9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;
10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:
11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.
may i ask what you two disagree on?
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.
26 Let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another.
1 Corinthians 12:1-11
12 Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I would not have you ignorant.
2 Ye know that ye were Gentiles, carried away unto these dumb idols, even as ye were led.
3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.
4 Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.
5 And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord.
6 And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.
7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.
8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;
9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;
10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:
11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.
may i ask what you two disagree on?
Completely wrong. This is a fundamental error in basic theology.
Jesus described salvation as a new birth. Single one time event. Sanctification is a journey a lifetime journey with many faltering steps.
You would teach and yet you are the one who needs to know the truth. Romanism cannot save and only leads to destruction.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
Jesus described salvation as a new birth. Single one time event. Sanctification is a journey a lifetime journey with many faltering steps.
You would teach and yet you are the one who needs to know the truth. Romanism cannot save and only leads to destruction.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
A
What happens to people when they walk away from God.
Do they lose their salvation? (what Fran seems to teaches, she can correct the statement if she disagrees with my summary)
Or does God drag them back through His discipline and love?
I believe God chastens all His born again children. Even if they turn away, God will not abandon them but will walk with them and reason with them and keep placing people and messages in their life until they fall on their knees and repent and turn back to God.
However I also believe that many professing Christians don't have a true saving faith in the Gospel of Christ. Many people have bought into a false gospel and don't truly trust that what Jesus did on the cross was enough to save them. That Jesus sacrifice was enough for them to become born again children of God.
I don't believe that just saying you are a child of God makes you one. Even the Pharisees claimed to be God's children and Jesus told them they are children of the devil for they rejected Him.
The only sign or proof that someone is a child of God is not good works but the Holy spirit seal that allows us to cry out Abba, Father! The Holy spirit that chastens is when we sin. The Holy spirit that teaches ua, interferes for us and comforts us.
I believe being a child of God is about the relationship between God and us, and each of our siblings.
I don't know what Fran agrees or disagrees with in the above statement, but that is what I believe the Gospel is and what GOD calls us to preach.
I bolded a reminder that everyone should heed.
Do they lose their salvation? (what Fran seems to teaches, she can correct the statement if she disagrees with my summary)
Or does God drag them back through His discipline and love?
I believe God chastens all His born again children. Even if they turn away, God will not abandon them but will walk with them and reason with them and keep placing people and messages in their life until they fall on their knees and repent and turn back to God.
However I also believe that many professing Christians don't have a true saving faith in the Gospel of Christ. Many people have bought into a false gospel and don't truly trust that what Jesus did on the cross was enough to save them. That Jesus sacrifice was enough for them to become born again children of God.
I don't believe that just saying you are a child of God makes you one. Even the Pharisees claimed to be God's children and Jesus told them they are children of the devil for they rejected Him.
The only sign or proof that someone is a child of God is not good works but the Holy spirit seal that allows us to cry out Abba, Father! The Holy spirit that chastens is when we sin. The Holy spirit that teaches ua, interferes for us and comforts us.
I believe being a child of God is about the relationship between God and us, and each of our siblings.
I don't know what Fran agrees or disagrees with in the above statement, but that is what I believe the Gospel is and what GOD calls us to preach.
I bolded a reminder that everyone should heed.
Fran -
I have and many others have shown you what "believe" means - It's useless to keep posting the same things to you but I will post again as I believe it will help the viewers to know that Christ will not forsake nor desert them and that they are safe in Him.
I will post what it means to believe as far as being saved for eternity when we hear the gospel message of Christ's finished work on the cross and resurrection. Jesus Himself who is NOT a liar said that the Holy Spirit will be in you forever. John 14:16
True biblical belief is of the heart - not in the head or mind. God looks on the heart - man look on the outward appearance.
Getting "saved" is simple but it was not cheap - it cost the life and blood of our loving Father's Son to purchase "eternal redemption" for us. Heb. 9:12.
Let's honor the Son and the Father by believing in what He has done for us in His great love and grace.
Romans 10:9-10 (NASB)
[SUP]9 [/SUP] that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;
[SUP]10 [/SUP] for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.
The process is simple too. - the only "good works" required was to believe in the Son just like Jesus said in John 6:28-29
1) we hear the message of Christ - the gospel of our salvation in Him
2) we believe the message from our hearts
3) we were sealed with the Holy Spirit
( Jesus said in John 14:16 that the Holy Spirit will be with us and in us forever - now was Jesus lying or is he like a "bait and switch" car salesman that has "fine print" which He doesn't talk about )
Ephesians 1:13 (NASB)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, = 1)
the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, = 2)
you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, = 3)
you were sealed = aorist indicative tense / passive voice = a one time event in the past.
Passive voice = the sealing was not done by us but by an outside force - the Holy Spirit Himself.
This sealing is where the Holy Spirit remains in us. We don't unseal ourselves - it's religious nonsense talk. Jesus is NOT a liar and the Holy Spirit is in us forever.
As I have said before - we can get messed up in our minds but in our new creation - the inner man of the heart where Christ dwells by the Holy Spirit - we are safe in Christ forever.
Yes - the true gospel of the grace of God in Christ is scandalous to the religious works-righteousness mind set and it will always be.
Ariel, there are a couple of points I'd be willing to discuss, but they aren't terribly important to salvation.
Here's something you said that is.
I do believe a person can lose their salvation in the same way the gain it...
By losing faith and not trusting in Jesus.
YOU said above that God continues to walk with them and reason with them until they come back.
I also believe this. And most do come back. Some don't.
Here's the problem with teaching eternal security. It doesn't make people understand the danger of losing faith.
It doesn't make them understand how important it is to stay close to Jesus and hang on to Him. It makes it seem like it's OK to leave because God will still be with them.
This is not true. God and non-faith in Him cannot co-exist.
You said that the person can come back.
True.
But what if they die BEFORE they could come back?
You see, it's very important to teach that faith must be continuous and not abandoned.
A person does not know when their day will come.
Jesus said to be ready for we know not the day.
He meant the end of time, but for the person that dies, it IS the end of time.
Here's something you said that is.
I do believe a person can lose their salvation in the same way the gain it...
By losing faith and not trusting in Jesus.
YOU said above that God continues to walk with them and reason with them until they come back.
I also believe this. And most do come back. Some don't.
Here's the problem with teaching eternal security. It doesn't make people understand the danger of losing faith.
It doesn't make them understand how important it is to stay close to Jesus and hang on to Him. It makes it seem like it's OK to leave because God will still be with them.
This is not true. God and non-faith in Him cannot co-exist.
You said that the person can come back.
True.
But what if they die BEFORE they could come back?
You see, it's very important to teach that faith must be continuous and not abandoned.
A person does not know when their day will come.
Jesus said to be ready for we know not the day.
He meant the end of time, but for the person that dies, it IS the end of time.
A
I actually agree with the article and what it is saying.
Especially this part
v[/QUOTE]
! It is about turning from one kingdom to another and continuing to draw away from the one kingdom into the other. The time that this takes to actually happen is not as important as making sure that God’s Spirit of salvation is actually happening within the convert’s life.v[/QUOTE]
Unfortunately you will twist this author's words like you do the Bible to fit you theology and falsely accuse people of teaching "a one time psychological event " when they don't.
You see your problem is with definitions.
Folks define salvation and sanctification differently.
If you believe God will finish what He started when you are born again, then when people say you are saved at that point it makes sense.
However if you believe you can lose your salvation, then salvation has to be tied at the end of life. How do people who hold this belief have peace or rest?
What the article talks about is sanctification and everyone agrees that is important and something God works in the lives of all believers...they just don't call it salvation.
But I forgot...this isn't about actual conversation to understand what others believe but just a platform to preach for you.
Especially this part
v[/QUOTE]
! It is about turning from one kingdom to another and continuing to draw away from the one kingdom into the other. The time that this takes to actually happen is not as important as making sure that God’s Spirit of salvation is actually happening within the convert’s life.v[/QUOTE]
Unfortunately you will twist this author's words like you do the Bible to fit you theology and falsely accuse people of teaching "a one time psychological event " when they don't.
You see your problem is with definitions.
Folks define salvation and sanctification differently.
If you believe God will finish what He started when you are born again, then when people say you are saved at that point it makes sense.
However if you believe you can lose your salvation, then salvation has to be tied at the end of life. How do people who hold this belief have peace or rest?
What the article talks about is sanctification and everyone agrees that is important and something God works in the lives of all believers...they just don't call it salvation.
But I forgot...this isn't about actual conversation to understand what others believe but just a platform to preach for you.
You told me everything EXCEPT WHAT BELIEVE MEANS.
And you know why you cannot.
You're an intelligent person.
If you tell me what BELIEVE means, you'll have to admit that we are REQUIRED to do works.
How about being intellectually honest?
Did I ask you to explain how one is saved? (no)
Did I ask you what I'm supposed to believe IN? (no)
You AGAIN repeat that the only good work we are to do is to BELIEVE, BUT, of course, you did NOT explain what believe means.
YOU JUST like to confuse the Readers and make them THINK you did.
But YOU know you didn't.
I, on the other hand, have explained it MANY TIMES because I'm not afraid of the word or the word "WORKS".
But, apparenly YOU are.
You're Always bringing up RELIGIOUS WORKS.
So, apparently you are against good works.
That is your prerogative. I only hope those reading along understand that GOD REQUIRES GOOD WORKS.
Now, wanna try again?
WHAT DOES BELIEVE MEAN?
What does it mean when I say I BELIEVE IN JESUS??
it'll only take two sentences.
And you know why you cannot.
You're an intelligent person.
If you tell me what BELIEVE means, you'll have to admit that we are REQUIRED to do works.
How about being intellectually honest?
Did I ask you to explain how one is saved? (no)
Did I ask you what I'm supposed to believe IN? (no)
You AGAIN repeat that the only good work we are to do is to BELIEVE, BUT, of course, you did NOT explain what believe means.
YOU JUST like to confuse the Readers and make them THINK you did.
But YOU know you didn't.
I, on the other hand, have explained it MANY TIMES because I'm not afraid of the word or the word "WORKS".
But, apparenly YOU are.
You're Always bringing up RELIGIOUS WORKS.
So, apparently you are against good works.
That is your prerogative. I only hope those reading along understand that GOD REQUIRES GOOD WORKS.
Now, wanna try again?
WHAT DOES BELIEVE MEAN?
What does it mean when I say I BELIEVE IN JESUS??
it'll only take two sentences.
............................. Jesus died on the cross and rose again from the dead and he took my sins on Himself - I believe that He did this. Believe means what we hear - we trust.
For example "I trust" in the fact that Jesus is NOT a liar when He said that the Holy Spirit will be in us fo9rever. John 14:16
I trust in the truth that He has obtained eternal redemption for us . Heb. 9:12
I believe it is useless to keep telling you the same things over and over again and I refuse to argue with you over the same things day in and day out.
You can believe that Daffy Duck and Donald Duck are the 2 witnesses in the book of Revelation if you choose.
![4199675334_66c3e3d61d_z[1].jpg](/data/attachments/71/71885-50990c0bf5bb02aa3cd66f1f7828e6a9.jpg)
For example "I trust" in the fact that Jesus is NOT a liar when He said that the Holy Spirit will be in us fo9rever. John 14:16
I trust in the truth that He has obtained eternal redemption for us . Heb. 9:12
I believe it is useless to keep telling you the same things over and over again and I refuse to argue with you over the same things day in and day out.
You can believe that Daffy Duck and Donald Duck are the 2 witnesses in the book of Revelation if you choose.
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Unfortunately you will twist this author's words like you do the Bible to fit you theology and falsely accuse people of teaching "a one time psychological event " when they don't.
You see your problem is with definitions.
Folks define salvation and sanctification differently.
If you believe God will finish what He started when you are born again, then when people say you are saved at that point it makes sense.
However if you believe you can lose your salvation, then salvation has to be tied at the end of life. How do people who hold this belief have peace or rest?
What the article talks about is sanctification and everyone agrees that is important and something God works in the lives of all believers...they just don't call it salvation.
But I forgot...this isn't about actual conversation to understand what others believe but just a platform to preach for you.[/QUOTE]
Why do you accuse me of not understanding you?
Do I do this to you?
People who teach Others are usually very astute at understanding what a person is asking or saying.
Because I don't agree does not mean I dont' understand...
You see your problem is with definitions.
Folks define salvation and sanctification differently.
If you believe God will finish what He started when you are born again, then when people say you are saved at that point it makes sense.
However if you believe you can lose your salvation, then salvation has to be tied at the end of life. How do people who hold this belief have peace or rest?
What the article talks about is sanctification and everyone agrees that is important and something God works in the lives of all believers...they just don't call it salvation.
But I forgot...this isn't about actual conversation to understand what others believe but just a platform to preach for you.[/QUOTE]
Why do you accuse me of not understanding you?
Do I do this to you?
People who teach Others are usually very astute at understanding what a person is asking or saying.
Because I don't agree does not mean I dont' understand...
Fran - I don't fall for your constant "baiting" techniques. There were some on here in CC before you came that were experts in that area so we have been well-trained in these tactics.
I know you don't "like" the answer people give you because it conflicts with your religious beliefs and I understand that part and so you refuse to accept their answers. You are entitled to have your own opinion...
Have a great day! Bless you.
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