Not By Works

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Aug 15, 2009
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Continued.....

c. universally, the religious belief of Christians; α. subjectively: Ephesians 4:13, where cf. Meyer; in the sense of a mere acknowledgment of divine things and of the claims of Christianity, James 2:14, 17f, 20, 22, 24, 26. β. objectively, the substance of Christian faith or what is believed by Christians: τῇ ἅπαξπαραδοθείσῃ ... πίστει Jude 1:3; ἁγιωτάτῃ ὑμῶν πίστις, Jude 1:20. There are some who think this meaning of the word is to be recognized also in 1 Timothy 1:4, 19; 1 Timothy 2:7; 1 Timothy 3:9; 1 Timothy 4:1, 6; 1 Timothy 5:8; 1 Timothy 6:10, 21 (cf. Pfleiderer, Paulinismus, p. 468 (English translation, ii., p. 200)); but Weiss (Biblical Theol. d. N. T. § 107 a. note) correctly objects, "πίστις is rather the form in which the truth (as the substance of right doctrine) is subjectively appropriated"; (cf. Meyer on Romans 1:5(and Prof. Dwight's additional note); Ellicott on Galatians 1:23; Lightfoot on Galatians, p. 157).

d. with the predominant idea of trust (or confidence) whether in God or in Christ, springing from faith in the same: Matthew 8:10; Matthew 15:28; Luke 7:9, 50; Luke 17:5; Hebrews 9:28; Lachmann's stereotyped edition; Hebrews 10:22; James 1:6; with a genitive of the subject: Matthew 9:2, 22, 29; Matthew 15:28; Mark 2:5; Mark 5:34; Mark 10:52; (Luke 5:20); ; with a genitive of the object in which trust is placed: τοῦ ὀνόματος αὐτοῦ, Acts 3:16; πίστιν ἔχειν (Matthew 17:20); ; Mark 4:40; Luke 17:6; πᾶσαν τήν πίστιν (`all the faith' that can be thought of), 1 Corinthians 13:2; ἔχειν πίστιν Θεοῦ, to trust in God, Mark 11:22; ἔχειν πίστιν τοῦ σωθῆναι, to be healed (see Fritzsche on Matthew, p. 843f; (cf. Winers Grammar, § 44,4{a}; Buttmann, 268 (230))), Acts 14:9; πίστις δἰ αὐτοῦ, awakened through him, Acts 3:16; εὐχή τῆς πίστεως, that proceeds from faith, James 5:15; of trust in the promises of God, Romans 4:9, 16, 19; Hebrews 4:2; Hebrews 6:12; Hebrews 10:38f; with a genitive of the subject, Romans 4:5, 12; πίστις ἐπί Θεόν, faith which relies on God who grants the forgiveness of sins to the penitent (see ἐπί, C. I. 2 g. α.), Hebrews 6:1; δικαιοσύνη τῆς πίστεως (cf. Winer's Grammar, 186 (175)), Romans 4:11, 13; κατά πίστιν δικαιοσύνη, Hebrews 11:7.
 
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PHart

Guest
Assurance of salvation

... I will start here:

8 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus,[SUP][a][/SUP] who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. [SUP]2 [/SUP]For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. Rom 8:1-2
It's interesting how virtually everyone who reads this passage in the church today can't see the part that says "who do not walk according to the flesh". Why is that? Is it because we have been trained to skip right over it by this 'just believe' doctrine over taking the church?
 
Apr 30, 2016
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[SIZE=+1]4102 pístis (from 3982/peithô, "persuade, be persuaded") – properly, persuasion (be persuaded, come to trust); faith.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+1]Faith (4102/pistis) is always a gift from God, and never something that can be produced by people. In short, 4102/pistis ("faith") for the believer is "God's divine persuasion" – and therefore distinct from human belief (confidence), yet involving it. The Lord continuously births faith in the yielded believer so they can know what He prefers, i.e. the persuasion of His will (1 Jn 5:4).[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+1][4102 (pistis) in secular antiquity referred to a guarantee (warranty). In Scripture, faith is God's warranty, certifying that the revelation He inbirthed will come to pass (His way).[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+1]Faith (4102/pistis) is also used collectively – of all the times God has revealed (given the persuasion of) His will, which includes the full revelation of Scripture (Jude 3). Indeed, God the Lord guarantees that all of this revelation will come to pass! Compare Mt 5:18 with 2 Tim 3:16.][/SIZE]
[SIZE=+1][SIZE=+1][SIZE=+1]1[SIZE=+1]. The root of 4102/pistis ("faith") is 3982/peithô ("to persuade, be persuaded") which supplies the core-meaning of faith ("divine persuasion"). It is God's warranty that guarantees the fulfillment of the revelation He births within the receptive believer (cf. 1 Jn 5:4 with Heb 11:1).[/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE]
[SIZE=+1]Faith (4102/pistis) is always received from God, and never generated by us.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+1]Ro 12:3: "For through the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think more highly of himself than he ought to think; but to think so as to have sound judgment, as God has allotted to each a measure of faith (4102/pistis)" (NASU).[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+1][SIZE=+1][SIZE=+1][SIZE=+1][SIZE=+1]Eph 2:8,9: " For by grace you have been saved through faith (4102/pistis); and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; [SUP][SIZE=+1]9[/SIZE][/SUP][SIZE=+1][SIZE=+1]not as a result of works, so that no one may boast" (NASU).[/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE]
Just highlighting something important.

FAITH is our guarantee.

NO FAITH....... no guarantee.

We must have faith at the time of our Death to receive the promise of salvation.



Matthew 16:27
For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and THEN he shall reward every man according to his works.
 
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Those who believe in hypergrace believe there's no more conviction of sin after receiving Christ.

This proves hypergrace to be heresy since a conviction of faith is faith itself.
 

graceNpeace

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Aug 12, 2016
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It's interesting how virtually everyone who reads this passage in the church today can't see the part that says "who do not walk according to the flesh". Why is that? Is it because we have been trained to skip right over it by this 'just believe' doctrine over taking the church?
Just like you have!!!!
I have SPECIFICALLY addressed this in my post!
 
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Assurance of salvation

Fran, I considered several ways to explaining assurance of salvation. I was going to take the explanation through the whole spiritual apparatus of salvation and justification by faith to assurance. However, I looked at the multitude of posts by yourself in this thread and others and I decided that you knew and understood all the concepts as far as mental assent goes.
I am convinced that you are an alert and intelligent individual with a good command of the English language, and dare I say it, a gift for the gab. I believe you when you say that you have debated this issue several times (not only on this forum). Perhaps you are a bit like those annoying, but nonetheless attractive girls and young women I knew at school, who could always win an argument. Being right or wrong was never the issue – winning the debate was!

So, instead I will start here:

8 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus,[SUP][a][/SUP] who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. [SUP]2 [/SUP]For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. Rom 8:1-2


and end here:

[SUP]38 [/SUP]For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor angels nor principalities nor powers, nor things present nor things to come, [SUP]39 [/SUP]nor height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. Rom 8:38-39.

In fact the entire chapter is Paul’s magnum opus on the assurance of salvation.
When you read verse 1, given your track record through this thread up to now you will immediately be thinking that there is an escape clause in that verse: “who do not walk according to the flesh“.
Not so.
Verse 9 explains who is who and what is what:

[SUP]9[/SUP] But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. Rom 8:9

What is the difference between those who are in the flesh and those in the Spirit?
Simple: “Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.” – not a Christian.
Simple: “But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you“ – a Christian.

My take on your approach is that somehow one can flip-flop from one state to another, from having the Holy Spirit to not having the Holy Spirit!
Is this Biblically tenable?
I would submit not.
Lets go on:

[SUP]14 [/SUP]For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. [SUP]15 [/SUP]For you did not receive the spirit of bondage again to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption by whom we cry out, “Abba, Father.” [SUP]16 [/SUP]The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, [SUP]17 [/SUP]and if children, then heirs—heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him, that we may also be glorified together. Rom 8:14-17

For this passage of Scripture to make any sense whatsoever it is not possible to oscillate between two states, Christian – non-Christian, born again – not born again, adopted son – not adopted.

Lets take this a bit further:

[SUP]13 [/SUP]In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, [SUP]14 [/SUP]who[SUP][b][/SUP] is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory. Eph 1:13-14

The phrase “sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise“ is not incidental. Everyone in those days knew what a seal was. Individuals like kings and rulers had seals. Seals were applied to documents and property. Messing with those seals meant the full wrath of those individuals and their authority of state because one was challenging and usurping their authority. Seals were often placed on goods purchased and then left without guard because the very seal was the guard or the security. No one would steal and goods marked with a seal unless they were willing to die for the privilege. The seals were inviolate.

The seal, which is the Holy Spirit is described like this: “who[SUP][b][/SUP] is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession.” The Holy Spirit is the guarantee of our inheritance. It is the same Holy Spirit that is our Spirit of adoption.

Furthermore we received this great inheritance, this adoption, by grace.
What does this mean exactly?
It means by grace, and therefore it cannot be of works in any way, shape, or form:

[SUP]5 [/SUP]Even so then, at this present time there is a remnant according to the election of grace. [SUP]6 [/SUP]And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace.[SUP][c][/SUP] But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work. Rom 11:5-6

The reference to the remnant and the present time referred to those who were Christians. Paul absolutely emphasises that salvation (the phrase used here is “according to the election of grace”) is by grace, unmerited favour, a gift.
If calling salvation a gift seems like over-egging the goose then look at the terminology Paul uses in Romans chapter 5:

[SUP]15 [/SUP]But the free gift is not like the offense. For if by the one man’s offense many died, much more the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abounded to many. [SUP]16 [/SUP]And the gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned. For the judgment which came from one offense resulted in condemnation, but the free gift which came from many offenses resulted in justification. [SUP]17 [/SUP]For if by the one man’s offense death reigned through the one, much more those who receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.) Rom 5:15-17

Paul calls it not just a gift but in redundant fashions calls it a “free gift” to absolutely emphasise that man cannot work for this. Cannot earn it.
Grace cannot be called grace unless it is grace. A gift cannot be a gift unless it is a gift – a free gift!
For grace to be grace, then grace accepted cannot be recalled, and likewise, for a gift to be a gift, then a gift accepted cannot be recalled.

Of course, grace can be rejected and a gift spurned, but once accepted, the one who offered cannot then demand its return.
Grace is unmerited favour – grace accepted could never have been earned in the first place because it was unmerited. A gift is offered without contractual obligation otherwise it is not a gift, it then becomes a conditional offering.

Ephesians 2:8-9 summarises and emphasises that salvation is by grace through faith:

[SUP]8 [/SUP]For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, [SUP]9 [/SUP]not of works, lest anyone should boast. Eph 2:8-9

(Eph 2:10 belongs to this passage too, but I will come back to it later – promise!)

If our salvation is by grace through faith, as stated, and is the gift of God, and therefore not of ourselves, and not of works then man hcan have only two responses to this offer: accept it or reject it!
This is a binary choice there is no middle road of choice.
Also, if one accepts the gift, offered by grace through faith, the gift cannot be lost by works or lack thereof (otherwise it cannot be a gift, never mind a gift offered by grace)!

Lets go back to the end of Romans chapter 8:

[SUP]38 [/SUP]For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor angels nor principalities nor powers, nor things present nor things to come, [SUP]39 [/SUP]nor height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. Rom 8:38-39.

These verses are not quoted out of context, this is a summary of an entire passage of Scripture devoted to one topic – assurance of salvation.
Paul's quotes every extreme that he can think of as pertaining to the topic and concludes that none of these things “shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Now to something a little more on the personal level – if I may be so bold!
I believe that in many ways we share similar beliefs and similar issues about Christianity and Christians.
It seems that lukewarm believers really offend you – that goes for me too!
I have been really offended in my Christian walk by the deadness in much of Christianity – I have found this to be so in every flavour of Christianity, Reformed vs Pelagian, Pentecostal/Charismatic vs Cessationist, loud vs quiet. It doesn’t really matter where I looked the flame seemed to burn really, really low!

I have left several churches due to this issue – I was not prepared to waste my time and money on organisations that had no commitment to their foundational commitment (by this I mean the Great Commission).

I too believe in the vital place that works has in our walk with Christ – just not for salvation. When Paul talks of our adoption as children of God in Romans chapter 8, it means we become part of the “family business”. As such we have a job to do. Of course, God is sovereign and can achieve anything He wants to without our help but, instead, God decided that believers were to be partners in the enterprise. This is where Ephesians 2:10 comes into play:

[SUP]10 [/SUP]For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them. Eph 2:10

These good works are consequent to the fact that we are saved, not a requirement for salvation. We are family, and part of a family enterprise not employees on a performance-based contract!

I believe that your crusade against what you term “easy-believism” is throwing the baby out with the bathwater!
It is just a substitute term for works-based salvation.
Obviously, in that situation there cannot be assurance of salvation because that is based on grace but a works-based “salvation” has to be according to individual merit.

But that is simply not what is taught – Paul devotes the whole of his epistle to the Romans to explain a Gospel of grace through faith, a free gift that was actually the most expensive gift in history – the shed blood of Jesus Christ!
Yet, to us it is free!
There is no other way to say it – it is a free gift – and that free gift manifests to us as the seal of the Holy Spirit (Eph 1:13), “the Spirit of adoption by which we cry out, Abba Father” Rom 8:15.

We are sealed and we are adopted as children of God, and as such we have “the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory. Eph 1:14
Well said...and spot on.

No one likes the lukewarmness of living by our own strength which we see in the body of Christ now. I firmly believe the gospel has been so watered down that it has been replaced by a behavior modification program that has no life in it for true transformation which only comes by the hearing of Christ Himself and all that He has done. ( this behavior modification program is where works-salvation is spawned from )

Preach Christ and Him crucified and that we too were crucified with Him and rose again with Him to newness of life and then the Christian will have the proper nutrients to walk in the good works that our Father has prepared for us to walk in. This will manifest the fruit of Christ's life in and through us to a hurt and dying world that needs to see the love and grace of our loving Father and Lord.

This is the essence of the great commission.
 
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PHart

Guest
You keep putting the cart before the horse!
The "faith" that "just believes" is NOT faith!
Faith that is saving faith (and that alone saves) will have consequent works - that is what James references.
WHAT DO YOU THINK I'VE BEEN SAYING ALL ALONG!?

Why are people so deaf and instantly think the argument for faith and works for salvation can only mean an argument for a works earned salvation???? You said it yourself; faith that is saving faith will have works! Are you advocating a works earned salvation? Of course not. But when I say what you say using James' words I'm sent to hell as a blasphemous, evil worker of darkness. What a joke.


To try and insist that works save is not being intellectually honest with the material!
Not to mention the fact that would make James contradict all the Pauline epistles - he does not actually contradict Paul but a misunderstanding of James chapter 2 just makes it seem that way.
Don't you see that by you saying "Faith that is saving faith (and that alone saves) will have consequent works" is saying faith has to have works attached for it to be saving faith? James plainly said a person is NOT saved by faith that is alone. "Can such faith save him?", he asks rhetorically. The faith that is alone, having no works, is the faith that can not save. Why is it that you people can only hear that as an argument for a works gospel? But yet, some of you will turn right around and say real faith will do work. This duplicity is maddening!
 

graceNpeace

Senior Member
Aug 12, 2016
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WHAT DO YOU THINK I'VE BEEN SAYING ALL ALONG!?

Why are people so deaf and instantly think the argument for faith and works for salvation can only mean an argument for a works earned salvation???? You said it yourself; faith that is saving faith will have works! Are you advocating a works earned salvation? Of course not. But when I say what you say using James' words I'm sent to hell as a blasphemous, evil worker of darkness. What a joke.



Don't you see that by you saying "Faith that is saving faith (and that alone saves) will have consequent works" is saying faith has to have works attached for it to be saving faith? James plainly said a person is NOT saved by faith that is alone. "Can such faith save him?", he asks rhetorically. The faith that is alone, having no works, is the faith that can not save. Why is it that you people can only hear that as an argument for a works gospel? But yet, some of you will turn right around and say real faith will do work. This duplicity is maddening!
There is no duplicity - the works do not and cannot save!
 
Apr 30, 2016
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Well said...and spot on.

No one likes the lukewarmness of living by our own strength which we see in the body of Christ now. I firmly believe the gospel has been so watered down that it has been replaced by a behavior modification program that has no life in it for true transformation which only comes by the hearing of Christ Himself and all that He has done. ( this behavior modification program is where works-salvation is spawned from )

Preach Christ and Him crucified and that we too were crucified with Him and rose again with Him to newness of life and then the Christian will have the proper nutrients to walk in the good works that our Father has prepared for us to walk in. This will manifest the fruit of Christ's life in and through us to a hurt and dying world that needs to see the love and grace of our loving Father and Lord.

This is the essence of the great commission.
Grace,
You and Mailmandan should get together and agree on this...

YOU say the gospel has been watered down and replaced by a behavior modification program.
THIS PROGRAM is where works salvation is spawned from.
Which would make this a new phenomenon.

MAILMANDAN says that works salvation is an invention of the RCC, which has been around for over 2,000 years.

WHICH IS IT???

You see the confusion? This is due to the fact that we are abandoning traditional, long-standing Christianity as accepted by all churches except the reformed calvinist Church, and we are allowing all sorts of strange ideas to take hold just because they sound good...

IOW, they are the doctrine of easy believism and cheap grace.
We have watered down what Jesus taught, we've made everythin easy by saying we JUST HAVE TO BELIEVE, and we've cheapened Christ's Death on the Cross to keep us from satan's grip.
 
Dec 12, 2013
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I just read some of John MacArthur's blog, and love how he puts it. He's another one that also believes in God's promises.

Copy/paste...


"If your hope of eternal life is tied to the consistency of your earthly obedience, what hope is that? When you compare your obedience to the divine standard, when you compare yourself with the holiness of God, how do you measure up? A thousand lifetimes wouldn’t enable me to perfect holiness before an absolutely holy God; a thousand lifetimes would only reveal how utterly corrupt I truly am.

There’s no hope in the doctrine of conditional security. None at all. In fact, ever since that first encounter with someone who believed he could lose his salvation, I’ve met a number of people with the same fear. They constantly fret over the possibility they’ve unwittingly forfeited their salvation, having committed a sin so bad that God has disowned them"


"Not only do I believe the doctrine of conditional security is false, I would even dare to say it is blasphemous. The idea that you could lose the salvation God gave you slanders God and runs contrary to a number of the Bible’s core doctrines."



"Beyond the impossible burden of maintaining personal salvation, the doctrine of conditional security also strikes a blow against the power of God. To say you can lose your salvation—which the Bible says God accomplished through the death of Jesus Christ—is to make God into an impotent deity with no actual power to save anyone. The full exercise of His divine power is at the mercy of a weak, finite, and sinful creature who may or may not cooperate with Him"
Exactly....I have said numerous times that to say one can lose salvation and or maintain it by their own labor undermines the power of God and devalues the sacrifice and work of Jesus on our behalf.....it waters down his precious blood and in so doing makes God into a liar by stating that he cannot keep his promises directed at all who genuinely believe.....
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
"The faith" - noun

1. conviction of the truth of anything, belief (Plato, Polybius, Josephus, Plutarch; θαυμάσια καίμείζω πίστεως, Diodorus 1, 86); in the N. T. of a conviction or belief respecting man's relationship to God and divine things, generally with the included idea of trust and holy fervor born of faith and conjoined with it: Hebrews 11:1 (where πίστις is called ἐλπιζομένων ὑπόστασις, πραγμάτωνἔλεγχος οὐ βλεπομένων); opposed to εἶδος, 2 Corinthians 5:7; joined with ἀγάπη and ἐλπίς, 1 Corinthians 13:13.

a. when it relates to God, πίστις is "the conviction that God exists and is the creator and ruler of all things, the provider and bestower of eternal salvation through Christ": Hebrews 11:6; Hebrews 12:2; Hebrews 13:7; πίστις ἐπί Θεόν, Hebrews 6:1; πίστις ὑμῶν πρός τόν Θεόν, by which ye turned to God, 1 Thessalonians 1:8; τήν πίστιν ὑμῶν καί ἐλπίδα εἰς Θεόν, directed unto God, 1 Peter 1:21; with a genitive of the object (faith in) (τῶν θεῶν, Euripides, Med. 414; τοῦ Θεοῦ, Josephus, contra Apion 2, 16, 5; cf. Grimm, Exgt. Hdbch. on Sap. vi., 17f, p. 132; (cf. Meyer on Romans 3:22; also Meyer, Ellicott, Lightfoot on Col. as below; Winer's Grammar, 186 (175))): πίστις τῆςἐνεργείας τοῦ Θεοῦ τοῦ ἐγείραντος αὐτόν (Christ) ἐκ τῶν νεκρῶν, Colossians 2:12; διάπίστεως, by the help of faith, Hebrews 11:33, 39; κατά πίστιν, equivalent to πιστεύοντες, Hebrews 11:13; πίστει, dative of means or of mode by faith or by believing, prompted, actuated, by faith,Hebrews 11:3f, 7-9, 17, 20-24, 27-29, 31; dative of cause, because of faith, Hebrews 11:5, 11, 30.

So I can be convinced I am a sinner, Convinced I am seperated from God because of my sin, Convinced that I can not save myself, I am guilty, Convinced that Christ came to earth, Convinced that he hung on the cross. Convinced that he paid the penalty for my sin, Convinced that he can save me and give me eternal life, Convinced that everythign thing he said about me is true, and I need to change my life after I am saved.

Then days weeks or even a few year later, all of a sudden am no longer convinced? It was all a lie?
 
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I agree. All is traced back to the garden. Satan was twisting God's word back then, and I believe Cain was probably the first example of a non believer, who was trying to get to God on his own terms, not God's way.

But I was making the point that today a lot of the protestant churches are getting many of their destructive teachings from the catholic church. The RCC is the mother whore of Babylon, so just has passed on the paganism and added many extra teachings of her own. In the protestant churches these teachings have different names, but they really look like catholic doctrine repackaged. For example, I personally believe the prosperity gospel might be a renewal of the catholic doctrine of indulgences, so just given a different name, since they teach pretty much the same thing... give us money for a blessing. The popes of old would promise pardons/favors in exchange for money, such as getting a loved one out of "purgatory". So to me I see protestant churches have been infiltrated with catholic doctrine. And I believe conditional security has its roots in catholicism also.

Maybe these protestant denominations are the daughters of Rome, as mentioned in the scriptures? It makes me think of that scripture "spiritual wickedness in the Heavenly places".

All these false pagan religions are traced back to Babylon and Rome is said to be the mother system. But even before Babylon we know there was rebellion, so I agree with you.

By the way, my evil autocorrect is at it again. Changed that first paragraph word from "God" to "Odd". Truly changing the word of God!!! :eek:
Exactly....false teachers are compared to three men in Jude....Cain is the first on the list and what did Cain push....HIS WORKS.....just like the workers for do today.....Cain was lost as well and of the devil (the wicked one)

Paul is clear....

FAITH plus WORKS to finish off salvation or maintain salvation is a false gospel of a different kind with no power to save anyone. It is double cursed and those who espouse are called foolish and bewitched......end of story!
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
It's interesting how virtually everyone who reads this passage in the church today can't see the part that says "who do not walk according to the flesh". Why is that? Is it because we have been trained to skip right over it by this 'just believe' doctrine over taking the church?

No, We just interpret it correctly.

Gods people do not walk according to the flesh.

Satans people do.

But you and much of the churhc has distorted this part of the verse (if it is even really there which is debatable) to means something else..

Then attack and judge people who disagree

By the way, Are you going to answer? Or prove you have something to hide?
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
Just highlighting something important.

FAITH is our guarantee.

NO FAITH....... no guarantee.

We must have faith at the time of our Death to receive the promise of salvation.



Matthew 16:27
For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and THEN he shall reward every man according to his works.
All self

We can have faith, Then God lets us down, So we stop having faith..

Yeah right, Whatever,,

God is not a man who gives his children reasons to stop trusting him,, Maybe if people would see this, they would realize how even the thought that someone who was convinced of everything concerning the gospel somehow becoming unconvinced is just crazy!
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
Those who believe in hypergrace believe there's no more conviction of sin after receiving Christ.

This proves hypergrace to be heresy since a conviction of faith is faith itself.

Well since NO ONE in this chatroom thinks God does not convict us of sin.

one can only ask who you are talking about?

Oh thats right, Slander away, It seems to be your groups modus operendi.


 
Nov 22, 2015
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It's interesting how virtually everyone who reads this passage in the church today can't see the part that says "who do not walk according to the flesh". Why is that? Is it because we have been trained to skip right over it by this 'just believe' doctrine over taking the church?

It is vitally important to read "in context".

Paul tells us exactly what ""who do not walk according to the flesh" means.

Out church teachings and traditions have watered down the truth of the scriptures of the wonderful mystery and beauty of Christ's work on the cross and resurrection.

Here is a quote from the post of graceNpeace concerning this issue.


8 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus,

[SUP][a][/SUP] who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.

[SUP]2 [/SUP]For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. Rom 8:1-2


In fact the entire chapter is Paul’s magnum opus on the assurance of salvation.
When you read verse 1, given your track record through this thread up to now you will immediately be thinking that there is an escape clause in that verse: “who do not walk according to the flesh“.

Not so.

Verse 9 explains who is who and what is what:

[SUP]9[/SUP] But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. Rom 8:9

What is the difference between those who are in the flesh and those in the Spirit?

Simple: “Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.” – not a Christian.

Simple: “But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you“ – a Christian.

My take on your approach is that somehow one can flip-flop from one state to another, from having the Holy Spirit to not having the Holy Spirit!

Is this Biblically tenable?

I would submit not.

Unquote:

"who do not walk according to the flesh" is Paul stating the condition or position of the Christian because Christ is in them.

( We can give in to the desires of the flesh - but that is a different subject.)
 
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eternally-gratefull

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There is no duplicity - the works do not and cannot save!
Remember he as much said abraham was not saved according to james until he offered his son.

I have asked numerous times if abraham would have spent an eternity with God or not if he died before he had that chance, As usuall, they ignore questions when they are backed to a way and need to support their view.
 
Dec 12, 2013
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let me translate this for everyone- this means that the person who " doesn't get the point of greek" does not care very much about what words really mean, the person just wants to believe what they believe, without actual truth and knowledge getting in the way. especially when what they want is to push a works-based agenda.
AMEN.....let us chunk the inspired version for the translated version that loses value and grammatically inspired verb tense.......
 
Dec 12, 2013
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I must wonder why you did not highlight the parts I bolded and made into a larger font?

You like to focus on obedience, Yet you ignored where it came from

It says through Gods foreknowledge. (he already knew) we were chosen to be sanctified by the spirit, be obedient and be sprinkled by the blood.

It is through the sanctification of God that we are obedient, Not of our own power. It saddens me that people want to take power away from God. as if he can fail. And give yourself more power. as if you can resist.
Such are the workers for......the devalue the work of Christ and his blood while elevating themselves over JESUS and by their own power and works finish salvation and then keep themselves saved......
 
Nov 22, 2015
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Originally Posted by PHart


It's interesting how virtually everyone who reads this passage in the church today can't see the part that says "who do not walk according to the flesh". Why is that? Is it because we have been trained to skip right over it by this 'just believe' doctrine over taking the church?


Just like you have!!!!
I have SPECIFICALLY addressed this in my post!
Whenever we read the scriptures through the "lens" of the Old Covenant mindset - which is the obtaining of righteousness and life by "what we do or don't do " - there is a blindness that comes with that mind set. Paul talks about it in 2 Cor.3: 14-16.

Only the hearing of Christ and His finished work will bring about true seeing of what Christ has done - if it is mixed with faith - other than that a "veil" remains over our minds and we will continue to think with an Old Covenant mindset.

Make no mistake about it - the true gospel is offensive to all of us that are trying to maintain and create our own righteousness by what we do or don't do. The true gospel is a stumbling block to the Old Covenant belief system.