The Rapture

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Bogadile

Bogadile

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RickyZ said:
So, 124 pages into this debate, I'm curious if a single person has been swayed or convinced by another's opposing argument.

?
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I must admit I have not read all the pages in this thread. But what I have read has made me rethink things, but I still struggle with a few things regarding an earthly millennial kingdom, one of which is animal sacrifices, another is the lack of teaching on it in the writings of the Apostles. Gospels paint a different picture for sure, but we can always harmonize.
The animal sacrifices in particular seem to heavily contradict what is taught by the Apostles.
 
Galatians2-20

Galatians2-20

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Ahwatukee said:
Of all the information regarding the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, the bowl judgments are directly referred to as the wrath of God. In light of the scriptures above, how are you maintaining that the bowl judgments are not apart of God's wrath?
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Scripture seems to indicate that the bowls (vials) of God's wrath are poured out after Christ returns and the saints have been transformed into eternal beings, immune to the physical nature of God's wrath.
 
KJV1611

KJV1611

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Denadii said:
They marvelled, saying, How soon is the fig tree withered away!
“How did the fig tree dry up so quickly?” they asked.

See the verse is the same one but look at it in my version...See how much clearer it is?
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It's not more clarity, it's 2 different questions.

How soon is the fig tree is withered away?
How did the fig tree whither so quickly?
 
Bogadile

Bogadile

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#2,484
Matthew 21:19 How does dispensationalism deal with this? And Matthew 21:43.
 
J

J7

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It says read it literally. The fruits are figs, the World's largest Fig growing country is Turkey,
therefore the Kingdom has been given to Turkey.

This of course lines up perfectly with Revelation, as the Church was then identified as being in Turkey.

literalism - works most every time
 
Bogadile

Bogadile

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Hahaha! It all matches perfectly, is Turkey the lost 10 tribes?

J7 if Jesus cursed the fig tree in Matthew 21:19 does that explain why it is not Constantinople anymore but Istanbul?

You made a great point there that with literal 21st century news paper interpretation you can come up with wild ideas, the same accusation is being thrown at those who allegorize anything.
At the end of the day the truth is everyone allegorizes scripture, it is just a matter of what Scripture and do they admit it or not. Good example of this is the 7 churches written in the Apocalypse of John, which are spiritualized into 7 church ages.

Is there any interpretation of Matthew 21:19 from the dispensationalists? I am googling but I cannot find anything other than overriding it with Matthew 24. They all agree fig tree is Israel.
 
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J

J7

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Actually, funny you should say that.
[FONT=&quot]
1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father,

Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia = Modern Turkey[/FONT]
 
KJV1611

KJV1611

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Bogadile said:
Matthew 21:19 How does dispensationalism deal with this? And Matthew 21:43.
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Here's one that I would like to understand. One day is as a thousand years and then it goes on to talk about the day of the Lord. I believe the day of the Lord was at the first coming but this verse seems to maybe point to the end.

Why do you think the 1 day = 1000 years is mentioned at this point in scripture... does it mean the day of the Lord is a thousand or two thousand years in the future or is there something in the old testament that links it to the first coming of Christ?

2 Peter 3:8-10 KJV
But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
[9] The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
[10] But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
 
Denadii

Denadii

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KJV1611 said:
Here's one that I would like to understand. One day is as a thousand years and then it goes on to talk about the day of the Lord. I believe the day of the Lord was at the first coming but this verse seems to maybe point to the end.

Why do you think the 1 day = 1000 years is mentioned at this point in scripture... does it mean the day of the Lord is a thousand or two thousand years in the future or is there something in the old testament that links it to the first coming of Christ?

2 Peter 3:8-10 KJV
But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
[9] The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
[10] But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
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Did you get me JuJubes?
 
Denadii

Denadii

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KJV1611 said:
Yes, I'll give them to you the next time I see you lol.
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Oh. You'll probably eat them! I think many of the one day as a thousand years are metaphorical...Its a description thing. Count every thousand year span as a day. But sometimes a thousand years is simply that. A thousand years. What would you wind up with if you took all of the examples where it says 'AS a thousand years' or Like a thousand years and reword it to say. "God is not concerned about time. He moves according to His timetable, not ours" Would that work?

[h=1]2 Peter 3:8-9 (CJB)[/h] [SUP]8 [/SUP]Moreover, dear friends, do not ignore this: with the Lord, one day is like a thousand years and a thousand years like one day[SUP][a][/SUP] [SUP]9 [/SUP]The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some people think of slowness; on the contrary, he is patient with you; for it is not his purpose that anyone should be destroyed, but that everyone should turn from his sins.
 
J

J7

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KJV1611 said:
Here's one that I would like to understand. One day is as a thousand years and then it goes on to talk about the day of the Lord. I believe the day of the Lord was at the first coming but this verse seems to maybe point to the end.

Why do you think the 1 day = 1000 years is mentioned at this point in scripture... does it mean the day of the Lord is a thousand or two thousand years in the future or is there something in the old testament that links it to the first coming of Christ?

2 Peter 3:8-10 KJV
But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
[9] The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
[10] But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
Click to expand...
I think it simply means this KJ.

Matthew 24
[FONT=&quot]29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Then here means something happening in sequence, but if a thousand years = a day, what if we say this:

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:30 And then, two/three days later, shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

All Jesus is saying is one thing follows the other, but no sense of the duration involved is given, but Peter clarifies this for us. As the 2nd Coming could literally happen at any time, it is simply sequential; Peter just clues us into the fact that actually it might not be as immediate as people hope or expect.

Same thing in Acts 2:19-20
Acts 2:19-20
And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke: [20] The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come:

Jerusalem will be burned to a frazzle before the return of the Lord. Will it happen a day before, a week before, five hundred years before, five thousand years before?

No one knows, because no-one knows when the Lord will return.


[/FONT]
 
KJV1611

KJV1611

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J7 said:
I think it simply means this KJ.

Matthew 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Then here means something happening in sequence, but if a thousand years = a day, what if we say this:

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:30 And then, two/three days later, shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

All Jesus is saying is one thing follows the other, but no sense of the duration involved is given, but Peter clarifies this for us. As the 2nd Coming could literally happen at any time, it is simply sequential; Peter just clues us into the fact that actually it might not be as immediate as people hope or expect.

Same thing in Acts 2:19-20
Acts 2:19-20
And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke: [20] The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come:

Jerusalem will be burned to a frazzle before the return of the Lord. Will it happen a day before, a week before, five hundred years before, five thousand years before?

No one knows, because no-one knows when the Lord will return.
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I understand the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70, it ended the "old way". What purpose is there in another future destruction?
 
Bogadile

Bogadile

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KJV1611 said:
I understand the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70, it ended the "old way". What purpose is there in another future destruction?
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I think about this too. Jesus prophecied the temple will be destroyed, said what he said in Matthew 21:19 (still waiting for an answer to that from our dispensational friends) and the temple was destroyed and Jews were dispersed from the land.
 
KJV1611

KJV1611

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Denadii said:
Oh. You'll probably eat them! I think many of the one day as a thousand years are metaphorical...Its a description thing. Count every thousand year span as a day. But sometimes a thousand years is simply that. A thousand years. What would you wind up with if you took all of the examples where it says 'AS a thousand years' or Like a thousand years and reword it to say. "God is not concerned about time. He moves according to His timetable, not ours" Would that work?

2 Peter 3:8-9 (CJB)

[SUP]8 [/SUP]Moreover, dear friends, do not ignore this: with the Lord, one day is like a thousand years and a thousand years like one day[SUP][a][/SUP] [SUP]9 [/SUP]The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some people think of slowness; on the contrary, he is patient with you; for it is not his purpose that anyone should be destroyed, but that everyone should turn from his sins.
Click to expand...
How do you know it's metaphorical and not literal?
 
J

J7

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Destruction?

[FONT=&quot]12 And Jesus went into the temple of God, and cast out all them that sold and bought in the temple, and overthrew the tables of the moneychangers, and the seats of them that sold doves,13 And said unto them, It is written, My house shall be called the house of prayer; but ye have made it a den of thieves.[/FONT]
 
J

J7

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Bogadile said:
I think about this too. Jesus prophecied the temple will be destroyed, said what he said in Matthew 21:19 (still waiting for an answer to that from our dispensational friends) and the temple was destroyed and Jews were dispersed from the land.
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Proverbs 26:11 As a dog returneth to his vomit, so a fool returneth to his folly.
 
Denadii

Denadii

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KJV1611 said:
How do you know it's metaphorical and not literal?
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As I said earlier I think some of them are metaphorical and some are literal. Our problem is to know which is which. Thank God for the Holy Spirit who is so eager to teach us
 
RickyZ

RickyZ

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#2,499
KJV1611 said:
I understand the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70, it ended the "old way". What purpose is there in another future destruction?
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70 ad was a judgment on the Jews. The future event will be judgment upon the world.
 
KJV1611

KJV1611

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Denadii said:
As I said earlier I think some of them are metaphorical and some are literal. Our problem is to know which is which. Thank God for the Holy Spirit who is so eager to teach us
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The Holy Spirit leads you to believe it's metaphorical, he leads me to believe it's literal... how do you explain this lol.
 
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