Not By Works

[blue_ladybug]

I've been called much worse than "dumb" on here.. LOL

Blue isn't dumb. She is beautifully and wonderfully made and much loved by God.

I try and not speak when I am mad...and folks calling my siblings false names makes me mad, so I wait and pray before speaking to them for a bit.

 

[Ariel82]

Wow that is tragic Blue about your friend.

I have a rainbow shawl and it's for my Emmaus walk and not gay pride. We sing a song called De Colores,

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=hKMzhSkoVD8

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Hebrews 12 v 5....elenchomenos

Hebrews 12:5 Greek Text Analysis

"Being reproved" is the same word as "convict"

Hebrews 12:5 ►
New International Version
And have you completely forgotten this word of encouragement that addresses you as a father addresses his son? It says, "My son, do not make light of the Lord's discipline, and do not lose heart when he rebukes you,

New Living Translation
And have you forgotten the encouraging words God spoke to you as his children? He said, "My child, don't make light of the LORD's discipline, and don't give up when he corrects you.

English Standard Version
And have you forgotten the exhortation that addresses you as sons? “My son, do not regard lightly the discipline of the Lord, nor be weary when reproved by him.

Berean Study Bible
And you have forgotten the exhortation that addresses you as sons: "My son, do not make light of the Lord's discipline, or lose heart when He rebukes you.

Berean Literal Bible
and you have forgotten the exhortation that addresses you as to sons: "My son, do not regard lightly the Lord's discipline, nor faint being reproved by Him.

New American Standard Bible
and you have forgotten the exhortation which is addressed to you as sons, "MY SON, DO NOT REGARD LIGHTLY THE DISCIPLINE OF THE LORD, NOR FAINT WHEN YOU ARE REPROVED BY HIM;

King James Bible
And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:

That is the word rebuke, Not chasten. Now your being dishnest. You said they are both the same

Originally Posted by Ariel82

The Greek word has many uses as shown above. Convict and chasten are both used to translate and define the word.

Now you made me have to start up my computer to open Logos,

The word chasten is not the word you just used, The word chasten is from the word

παιδεία

1. the whole training and education of children (which relates to the cultivation of mind and morals, and employs for this purpose now commands and admonitions, now reproof and punishment): Eph. 6:4 [cf. W. 388 (363) note]; (in Grk. writ. fr. Aeschyl. on, it includes also the care and training of the body.) [See esp. Trench, Syn. § xxxii.; cf. Jowett’s Plato, index s. v. Education].
2. whatever in adults also cultivates the soul, esp. by correcting mistakes and curbing the passions; hence
a. instruction which aims at the increase of virtue: 2 Tim. 3:16.
b. acc. to bibl. usage chastisement, chastening, (of the evils with which God visits men for their amendment): Heb. 12:5 (Prov. 3:11), 7 sq. [see ὑπομένω, 2 b.], 11; (Prov. 15:5, and often in the O. T.; cf. Grimm, Exgt. Hdbeh. on Sap. p. 51; [cf. (Plat.) defin. παιδεία· δύναμις θεραπευτικὴ ψυχῆς]).*

Thayer, J. H. (1889). A Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament: being Grimm’s Wilke's Clavis Novi Testamenti (p. 473). New York: Harper & Brothers.

That is not the word you are using,

No wonder there is no agreement, Your not even interpreting the right word.

 

[Meggido]

The hard part is how do you expose the lie, whil loving those trapped in the lie in a way they can see the lie, and not become defensive and think your attacking them?

Thats is the hard part

Let the Holy Spirit deal with them...and pray that he reveals their condition to them...one of the stupidest things we do in the body is to take over things the Holy Spirit does better than we do.

It is not our job to expose anyone....our job is to pray the word over them...and let the Holy Spirit take over...

Two such prayers are taken directly from Ephesians 1.17-18 & Ephesians 3.16-19

[SUP]17 [/SUP]that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give to you a spirit of wisdom and of revelation in the knowledge of Him. [SUP]18 [/SUP]I pray that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened, so that you will know what is the hope of His calling, what are the riches of the glory of His inheritance in the saints

[SUP]16 [/SUP]that He would grant you, according to the riches of His glory, to be strengthened with power through His Spirit in the inner man, [SUP]17 [/SUP]so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith; and that you, being rooted and grounded in love, [SUP]18 [/SUP]may be able to comprehend with all the saints what is the breadth and length and height and depth, [SUP]19 [/SUP]and to know the love of Christ which surpasses knowledge, that you may be filled up to all the fullness of God.

Col 1.9-12

[SUP]9 [/SUP]For this reason also, since the day we heard of it, we have not ceased to pray for you and to ask that you may be filled with the knowledge of His will in all spiritual wisdom and understanding, [SUP]10 [/SUP]so that you will walk in a manner worthy of the Lord, to please Him in all respects, bearing fruit in every good work and increasing in the knowledge of God; [SUP]11 [/SUP]strengthened with all power, according to His glorious might, for the attaining of all steadfastness and patience; joyously [SUP]12 [/SUP]giving thanks to the Father, who has qualified us to share in the inheritance of the saints in Light.



We give the EPh 1 & 3 and Colossians 1.9-12 prayers to new baby believers and make them personalize the prayers with pronouns and memorize the prayers....radical results happen when people meditate, confess and pray these prayers...


People you both are describing do not last long in a church rooted and grounded in Love...the religious , demonic spirits upon them wont let them stay....

 

[Stephen63]

The whole context concerned a letter that Paul had written unto the assembly at Corinth (vs. 8)....it was written unto the saved and for the purpose of defending Paul's ministry and to get the Corinthians to receive Paul and company and their instruction that was directed at the Corinthian assembly (vs. 2) The verses you cite are a comparison between godly sorrow and worldly sorrow....It seems the letter made them sorrowful and they changed their mind toward PAUL, received his words of instruction and correction and changed their course.....Paul was clear on SIN.....should we continue to live a life of SIN because the GRACE of GOD out bounds our sin....NO......should we be remorseful of our sin when we sin...obviously....but at the end of the day like all the verses that have been posted....we are continually forgiven, cleansed and justified by the blood of Christ as far as our standing is concerned.....we are no longer condemned as the LOST ARE, but rather we are dealt with as sons and daughters........

Paul relates in 2Cor that he will deal with those who didn't repent of their sin mentioned in 1Cor.

2 Corinthians 13​

1This is the third time I am coming to you. EVERY FACT IS TO BE CONFIRMED BY THE TESTIMONY OF TWO OR THREE WITNESSES. 2I have previously said when present the second time, and though now absent I say in advance to those who have sinned in the past and to all the rest as well, that if I come again I will not spare anyone,

 

[PeterJens]

and it appears that some would rather tell themselves they are clean, and deny, any dirt.

having a strong desire to be clean is a great thing, but carrying that desire to the point of denying the reality that we all ( you to ) have some dirt here and there is a bad thing.

gb9 - You are right, hypocracy is meaningless.

Jesus said it like this

For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.
Matt 5:20

How do you know you are clean? Abide in Jesus, listen to His word, walk in the Spirit.

The words above are obviously spoken by someone who has not clue either of what
Paul and Jesus are talking about and has never believed they are cleansed, pure and
holy for even one second.

And my warning to anyone who condemns themselves this badly, why should God not
take you at your own words and self condemnation and condemn you to Hell, because
you are unworthy of following Jesus because you neither believe His words or accept
His cleansing of your life.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

EG,
The Holy Spirit's conviction of Sin would never make a sinner feel unworthy of Father or condemned by Jesus, would he?....Are you saying that the Helper makes a person feel unworthy before Father and this is conviction?

AM I reading you wrong here? Just need a clarification, because I do not think this is what you are saying, and I may be reading it wrong.

Romans 2.4 says:
[SUP]4 [/SUP]Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance?

Proverbs 16.6 says:
By lovingkindness and truth iniquity is atoned for,
And by the fear of the Lord one keeps away from evil.

The Holy Spirit's conviction of SIN, overpowers a person with such an overwhelming flood of love, mercy and grace for their condition as a sinner and then reveals to a person how their SIN and self righteous efforts have made them fall short before a living God.

The Holy Spirit uses his own fruit of the spirit to call to sinners and never would make one feel unworthy before God, he would reveal the condition, not make anyone feel unworthy, condemned or anything else.


These College kids do not feel unworthy because of the Holy Spirit conviction, they feel unworthy because of religious spirits in the church today.

Who felt conviction

the tax collector on his knees, or the Pharisee praising God for how great he was?

The college students felt unworthy because the law did its job, and the HS helped them to understand that.

If I do not feel unworthy, I will never get on my knees and ask God for his mercy, I will continue to be some form of the Pharisee who thinks he is ok..

 

[blue_ladybug]

Strange thing is, she used to like men for several years. Then she told me she had a girlfriend. Then Denise, my neighbor across the hall who also knew her, told me that she was in the process of becoming a man but had been murdered for it..

Wow that is tragic Blue about your friend.

I have a rainbow shawl and it's for my Emmaus walk and not gay pride. We sing a song called De Colores,

 

[Ariel82]

That is the word rebuke, Not chasten. Now your being dishnest. You said they are both the same


Now you made me have to start up my computer to open Logos,

The word chasten is not the word you just used, The word chasten is from the word

παιδεία

1. the whole training and education of children (which relates to the cultivation of mind and morals, and employs for this purpose now commands and admonitions, now reproof and punishment): Eph. 6:4 [cf. W. 388 (363) note]; (in Grk. writ. fr. Aeschyl. on, it includes also the care and training of the body.) [See esp. Trench, Syn. § xxxii.; cf. Jowett’s Plato, index s. v. Education].
2. whatever in adults also cultivates the soul, esp. by correcting mistakes and curbing the passions; hence
a. instruction which aims at the increase of virtue: 2 Tim. 3:16.
b. acc. to bibl. usage chastisement, chastening, (of the evils with which God visits men for their amendment): Heb. 12:5 (Prov. 3:11), 7 sq. [see ὑπομένω, 2 b.], 11; (Prov. 15:5, and often in the O. T.; cf. Grimm, Exgt. Hdbeh. on Sap. p. 51; [cf. (Plat.) defin. παιδεία· δύναμις θεραπευτικὴ ψυχῆς]).*

Thayer, J. H. (1889). A Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament: being Grimm’s Wilke's Clavis Novi Testamenti (p. 473). New York: Harper & Brothers.

That is not the word you are using,

No wonder there is no agreement, Your not even interpreting the right word.

That's because the Greek word you think I am refering to is chasten but that is not the word and I just showed you that you are misunderstanding what I am saying.

I probably misspoke and was not as clear as I should have been.


The question is does God ever convict believers of sin?

The answer is yes see Hebrews 12 v 5. He then chastens them.

 

[Grace777x70]

Again...where is of all these scriptures saying that the Holy Spirit "convicts" the believer of sins like it is used in our modern day evangelical verbiage and usage? There is no such thing. It's a man-made tradition that actually nullifies the very grace of God from operating in our life like it was meant to.

The scriptures speak of the Holy Spirit 's work is to reveal the things of Christ to us. - like that we are the righteousness of God in Christ. 1 Cor. 1:30 & 2 Cor. 5:21

John 16:14 (NASB)
[SUP]14 [/SUP] "He will glorify Me, for He will take of Mine and will disclose it to you.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

After conversion, how long does your church wait before starting intentional discipleship of new baby believers?

In my church the goal is asap. Just like the NT church

But we will not force anyone into it.

 

[blue_ladybug]

Why wouldn't the Holy Spirit convict us? Jesus and God do..

Again...where is of all these scriptures saying that the Holy Spirit "convicts" the believer of sins like it is used in our modern day evangelical verbiage and usage? There is no such thing. It's a man-made tradition that actually nullifies the very grace of God from operating in our life like it was meant to.

The scriptures speak of the Holy Spirit 's work is to reveal the things of Christ to us. - like that we are the righteousness of God in Christ. 1 Cor. 1:30 & 2 Cor. 5:21

John 16:14 (NASB)
[SUP]14 [/SUP] "He will glorify Me, for He will take of Mine and will disclose it to you.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Yet if you deny that the Holy spirit convicts believers of sin, isn't that the same as the some who "would rather tell themselves they are clean,and deny any dirt"?

why does a believer need to have their sin exposed when they already know it is sin? That makes absolutely no sense.

I wish sometimes people would just think about what others are saying instead of assuming, it would be much easier to converse without all the problems of trying to show others what we mean.

 

[joefizz]

I've been called much worse than "dumb" on here.. LOL

cat lady and miss lady aren't worse lol,but yeah people can be mean...

 

[PeterJens]

God us not OK, with sin, but God is OK with us. Upon acceptance of Him, He now accepts us, even in the midst of our sin.
The sin issue was resolved on the cross and He no longer holds it against us. Why are you so blind to that? Why do you always focus on sin, and not on the God that has resolved the issue of sin, so that we can walk in love with Him as our friend, as our guide, as our strength through this quagmire called life. If you believe He holds our sins against us, then you don't fully believe in His finished work on the cross.

Ok. Let me put it into context. I murder someone, outright, cold blooded murder,
and I come to faith. It does not matter, forgotten issue, I can go on to murder a
few more, God has forgiven me, it effects the people I murder, but I have immunity.

This is undiluted heresy and rubbish. Evil and sin has not part with the Lord and should
be dealt with.

Most in society are talking about speeding issues, white lies, not filling in tax forms correctly,
things they regard as minor, and God just accepts them as loved.

Now our sins passed are forgiven, and resolved, but we are expected to walk righteously.
To compromise on this is to compromise everything. So my question is, what sins are people
failing in, not just this junk of sin is just a done deal, and the sins we do do not matter.

That is heresy.

 

[Grace777x70]

Let the Holy Spirit deal with them...and pray that he reveals their condition to them...one of the stupidest things we do in the body is to take over things the Holy Spirit does better than we do.

It is not our job to expose anyone....our job is to pray the word over them...and let the Holy Spirit take over...

Two such prayers are taken directly from Ephesians 1.17-18 & Ephesians 3.16-19

[SUP]17 [/SUP]that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give to you a spirit of wisdom and of revelation in the knowledge of Him. [SUP]18 [/SUP]I pray that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened, so that you will know what is the hope of His calling, what are the riches of the glory of His inheritance in the saints

[SUP]16 [/SUP]that He would grant you, according to the riches of His glory, to be strengthened with power through His Spirit in the inner man, [SUP]17 [/SUP]so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith; and that you, being rooted and grounded in love, [SUP]18 [/SUP]may be able to comprehend with all the saints what is the breadth and length and height and depth, [SUP]19 [/SUP]and to know the love of Christ which surpasses knowledge, that you may be filled up to all the fullness of God.

Col 1.9-12

[SUP]9 [/SUP]For this reason also, since the day we heard of it, we have not ceased to pray for you and to ask that you may be filled with the knowledge of His will in all spiritual wisdom and understanding, [SUP]10 [/SUP]so that you will walk in a manner worthy of the Lord, to please Him in all respects, bearing fruit in every good work and increasing in the knowledge of God; [SUP]11 [/SUP]strengthened with all power, according to His glorious might, for the attaining of all steadfastness and patience; joyously [SUP]12 [/SUP]giving thanks to the Father, who has qualified us to share in the inheritance of the saints in Light.



We give the EPh 1 & 3 and Colossians 1.9-12 prayers to new baby believers and make them personalize the prayers with pronouns and memorize the prayers....radical results happen when people meditate, confess and pray these prayers...


People you both are describing do not last long in a church rooted and grounded in Love...the religious , demonic spirits upon them wont let them stay....

"You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Meggido again."

Well said and I agree 100% with this.

Religion always gets the things of God and the gospel backwards and we all have traditions that are in our minds from various sources and the Lord will show us the truth in these to bring true life and transformation to us.

The grace of God in Christ's work will not be in vain for us that trust fully in all that he has done for us. The true grace of God will never leave us in the place where we are at that is lacking in the life of the Lord being manifested in our lives.

It is the heart of the Father for His beloved children.

 

[Grace777x70]

Why wouldn't the Holy Spirit convict us? Jesus and God do..

Why wasn't there 3 wise men at Jesus' birth?

 

[PeterJens]

why does a believer need to have their sin exposed when they already know it is sin? That makes absolutely no sense.

I wish sometimes people would just think about what others are saying instead of assuming, it would be much easier to converse without all the problems of trying to show others what we mean.

This is just totally absurd.

If a believer is in open rebellion against God, they are on the way to losing faith, or do not
have it in the first place.

To walk in the Spirit is to repent when sin is exposed. It is about not being defiled and being
a Holy vessel for Gods use.

 

[Meggido]

BROTHER...ALL the workers for who can lose salvation will say that we advocate sin......I have yet to figure out how lying and misrepresenting the facts and or twisting what is said helps their working for café blend salvation....it would seem that lying willfully would cause them to lose their salvation......

I do not think OSAS always advocates SIN. I do question where intentional discipleship comes into play with OSAS....

Not suggesting this from any of you here, but there seems to be a lack of knowledge or description from some of you about what the walk is about after you have been saved. Not to maintain or keep salvation at all.

More along the lines of growing up spiritually, becoming perfect[mature] in Christ, abiding, relationship building with God, doing good works out of love and like Christ did, making disciples and bearing fruit of those made disciples, etc.

I think covenant relationship believers are stymied by certain perceptions that OSAS believers do not talk about, and that is the above stuff...

I think the noise that keeps OSAS believers trapped in is the continual debate about how they are saved and are kept saved, but really and honestly....whats after that ya'll? What is your expectation for advancing the kingdom after you have been OSAS?

I hear some say God will finish the work in me, so I do not have to do anything but ride it out? My curiosity is, what your spiritual growth looks like after you are saved....

 

[eternally-gratefull]

That's because the Greek word you think I am refering to is chasten but that is not the word and I just showed you that you are misunderstanding what I am saying.

I probably misspoke and was not as clear as I should have been.


The question is does God ever convict believers of sin?

The answer is yes see Hebrews 12 v 5. He then chastens them.

No, I read you right, That's why I reposted what you said.

You said convict and chasten were the same

No, The lord rebukes them, he does not convict them, Again, Why does someone who knows something is sin need that sin exposed.

He needs his heart exposed, not his sin.

You do not rebuke a person who is not a child of God, you convict them

You do not convict a child of God, you rebuke, or admonish them.

this is where understanding of the English language helps and context help.

Yes, the word (translated rebuke) CAN BE translated convict It does not mean that is the WAY it should be translated. and notice how none of the English interpretors translated the word convict, but all translated rebuke, admonish, correct, reprove, There is a reason, the English word convict does not fit the context.