This is the Dividing Line on BDF

[Stephen63]

I actually did explain what I believe the sin nature to be.

Its us. Our human nature. Fallen, separated from God with a hostile mind until Light of the salvation offered to us by Jesus Christ is given..and pierces our spirit. Then from our Spirit alive with His Holy Spirit, we are being taught if you will...our minds are renewed by the Word, and our soul sees Jesus in truth.

We walk in His Spirit or live our life according to how we see Jesus. For the way that we see Him...is the way we will serve Him.

It's a life process of learning about the King and the laws of His Kingdom.

What saith thou?

Two things, actually.
1. (red) This is true. So if the fruit is the polar opposite, I guess we have our answer on who's in darkness, because by their fruits we will know them.

I know, some will say you can't judge them on the one particular thing. Right. That's why we are to know them by their fruitS. (plural)

The majority of their actions tells on them, not a single event!

2. (blue)Since we've the King DOES have laws, this means we obey them, because He requires it, & because we (eventually) want to, not to prove worthiness, but faithfulness.

 

[FranC]

Well, Once again (this really gets old Fran, You really are hard of listening)

Since NO ONE HERE TEACHES THIS, You are talking to the wind..

How can you expect to try to refute someone or argue against someone when you do not even know what they believe? You and peter and Stephen and a few others who have come and gone, and I am sure will come in the future, all are so bent on proving people wrong, you will never hear what they are really saying, and continue to make yourself look bad by continually arguing against an argument that is not even there.

Again, We can just pray one day you finally wake up and see this.

I hate to disappoint you EG, I know how much you love me,,,

But I'm really not talking to YOU.

I'm talking to those reading along so they could HEAR THE TRUTH as has been taught in Christianity since the time of Jesus.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I have a handicapped too. And she understands God a Whole lot better than most here.
She understands that God EXPECTS her to act in a certain way.
She's more loving than many on these threads and would put them to shame.
Know why? She's innocent and hasn't been warped by strange ideas that have nothing to do with Christianity.

So, Dcon, what is it that WE ARE TO BELIEVE?

That Jesus DID IT ALL, and WE ARE TO DO NOTHING?

Some here have a difficult time just being NICE to people.
Is this what your preaching gets us?

How about preaching that God EXPECTS certain behavior from us?
EXPECTS us to promote HIS Kingdom and DO HIS WORK.

I don't see God coming down here to earth to do it.
Jesus said He would send A HELPER

NOT A DOER for us. A HELPER.

What do we need help for?

TO DO OUR WORK.

What are works?
What are dead works?
What are works of the flesh?

Instead of going nutty trying to explain all this,,, why don't we just say that WE SHOULD DO WORKS.

Isn't that a lot easier and better understood by new christians???

See. More slander.. How can you live with yourself.

As for jesus work, He said it is finished (literally pain in full) Not I did nmy work, now you do yours, and maybe I might save you,

so your argument is with him, Not us..

 

[Grace777x70]

Again - it looks like time to post again what has been said concerning works despite what mis-representing others continue to say.

I love it when I get the opportunity to preach Christ Himself and what He has already done for us and that it is His life that we live by now as Christians.

Resting in Christ and works? What does it mean to enter into the rest of Christ? Does this mean we do nothing?

I don't chafe at the term "our doing". We do participate in what God is doing in and through us.

For it is God who is at work in us - both to will and to do of His good pleasure. He gives us both the desire and the capability. Phil. 2:13

What I would chafe at is the notion that we put "the doing" from ourselves by self-effort and not from the life of Christ in us. It's all a matter of where this "work originates" from - our flesh or from our inner man in Christ.

Outwardly they can look the same. I know that only God that looks on our heart can answer that question but it is subtle difference between works-based righteousness and faith-based righteousness.

Another term I use a lot that may throw some off is that I say we are to "rest" in the finished work of Christ. The word "rest" can bring the connotations to our natural humanistic minds that we do nothing which is not the truth. It's the exact opposite.

I won't speak for the others but as far as works go from a believer in Christ - here is what I believe when considering John Chapter 15 and the "works" of a believer.

Jesus is the Vine - we are the branches. The branch bears fruit..it does not produce it.

Without Him we can do nothing. We are to remain/abide/rest in the Lord - abide/remain/rest in the Lord and what He has done for us in His finished work. John 15

The life of the Vine supplies the "sap" needed for the bearing of fruit but it is His fruit that is produced in us.

Resting/remaining/abiding in the Lord is not a lazy passive existence. When we know that God has already provided everything we need and we access His wisdom, provision, strength by faith - we'll be governed by the Holy Spirit in a highly strategic and active life.

Resting/remaining/abiding in the Lord is not an inactive lifestyle or the nonsensical accusation of "easy-believism".

It's a Spirit-led lifestyle where we flow in His good works ( His fruit bearing in us ) that God had planned for us all along.

Resting/remaining/abiding in the Lord is our obedience in action.

Resting/remaining/abiding in the Lord is our warfare.

Resting/remaining/abiding in the Lord is our faith in action.

Hebrews 4:10-11 (NASB)
[SUP]10 [/SUP] For the one who has entered His rest has himself also rested from his works, as God did from His.

[SUP]11 [/SUP] Therefore let us be diligent to enter that rest, so that no one will fall, through following the same example of disobedience.

There is a vast difference between "us" doing things by the flesh and the Lord doing things through and in us. ( there is good looking flesh and bad looking flesh - but it is all still flesh )

We can do things in our own flesh like Abraham tried to fulfill the will of God by creating an Ishmael or wait for the Lord to work through us to produce the child of promise - Isaac. Galatians 4:22-24, 30

Psalm 127:1 (NASB)

Unless the LORD builds the house, They labor in vain who build it; Unless the LORD guards the city, The watchman keeps awake in vain.

Notice that there are 2 ways to "build the house". One is with the Lord - the other is "us" trying to do it by our own self-effort.

 

[Stephen63]

we probably all think that we deserve some kind of 'oscar'
at some point of our lives...and then we start to grow-up, pray God...

And until then, some will keep putting on their Oscar-winning performances.

That's what act-tors do.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Amen.
The same old argument and false allegations made by those who trust their own wrong idea of what Christianity is all about...
SERVING GOD in HIS KINGDOM.

Yeah?

I serve in Gods kingdom, And teach others to do it also, In fact, All Gods children do this, Thats what the bible says.

So what you think we are missing we are not.. What you are missing is your trying to add to the cross to save yourself.

The bible also says there are a bunch of impostors posing as christians, who keep praising about all their works, and how well they obey God, and how sinful these other people are..

 

[FranC]

Two things, actually.
1. (red) This is true. So if the fruit is the polar opposite, I guess we have our answer on who's in darkness, because by their fruits we will know them.

I know, some will say you can't judge them on the one particular thing. Right. That's why we are to know them by their fruitS. (plural)

The majority of their actions tells on them, not a single event!

2. (blue)Since we've the King DOES have laws, this means we obey them, because He requires it, & because we (eventually) want to, not to prove worthiness, but faithfulness.

Simply and beautifully said.

SEEMS SO EASY TO UNDERSTAND.

Maybe persons who want to do nothing, need to comfort themselves???
I truly don't understand the reason for this wall of brick...

Jesus made is so plain that we are to obey Him.

John 14:15
John 15:14
Mathew 5:17

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I hate to disappoint you EG, I know how much you love me,,,

But I'm really not talking to YOU.

I'm talking to those reading along so they could HEAR THE TRUTH as has been taught in Christianity since the time of Jesus.

Guess what Fran.

You have to KNOW the truth before you can teach it

What you are teaching is surely not truth, But self righteousness, legalistic religious mumbo jumbo that will never lead anyone to christ but will instead lead people away from Christ.

And why do you use a catholic excuse, then try to say your not being catholic?

 

[FranC]

Yeah?

I serve in Gods kingdom, And teach others to do it also, In fact, All Gods children do this, Thats what the bible says.

So what you think we are missing we are not.. What you are missing is your trying to add to the cross to save yourself.

The bible also says there are a bunch of impostors posing as christians, who keep praising about all their works, and how well they obey God, and how sinful these other people are..

If what you say is true...


WHY DO YOU FIGHT ME....

Why not just agree?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

If what you say is true...


WHY DO YOU FIGHT ME....

Why not just agree?

We do agree, on how a child of God should act, but we can never get to that point, because we are stuck on the most important point,

We do not agree, on how one becomes a child of God.

A non believer can act on the outside like a believer, But what good will it do them if they are not born again of incorruptible seed?

 

[FranC]

Guess what Fran.

You have to KNOW the truth before you can teach it

What you are teaching is surely not truth, But self righteousness, legalistic religious mumbo jumbo that will never lead anyone to christ but will instead lead people away from Christ.

And why do you use a catholic excuse, then try to say your not being catholic?

You hate Catholics?

yes. It is apparent.

Not very Christianly of you.

See. This is another work you refuse to do...

There must be many if you need to rest your conscience by convincing yourself that you need do nothing

and not only THAT

but that DOING GOOD WORKS is actually A BAD THING.

It's trying to ADD TO THE CROSS.
What does that mean, anyway?

WHAT am I adding to the cross?

 

[FranC]

We do agree, on how a child of God should act, but we can never get to that point, because we are stuck on the most important point,

We do not agree, on how one becomes a child of God.

A non believer can act on the outside like a believer, But what good will it do them if they are not born again of incorruptible seed?

Oh.

I thought EVERYONE HERE knows how to become a child of God.

You mean, YOU have a doubt????

I thought that was Christianity 101 and we were a ways Beyond that...
My bad.

 

[GandalfTheWhite]

I have a handicapped too. And she understands God a Whole lot better than most here.
She understands that God EXPECTS her to act in a certain way.
She's more loving than many on these threads and would put them to shame.
Know why? She's innocent and hasn't been warped by strange ideas that have nothing to do with Christianity.

So, Dcon, what is it that WE ARE TO BELIEVE?

That Jesus DID IT ALL, and WE ARE TO DO NOTHING?

Some here have a difficult time just being NICE to people.
Is this what your preaching gets us?

How about preaching that God EXPECTS certain behavior from us?
EXPECTS us to promote HIS Kingdom and DO HIS WORK.

I don't see God coming down here to earth to do it.
Jesus said He would send A HELPER

NOT A DOER for us. A HELPER.

What do we need help for?

TO DO OUR WORK.

What are works?
What are dead works?
What are works of the flesh?

Instead of going nutty trying to explain all this,,, why don't we just say that WE SHOULD DO WORKS.

Isn't that a lot easier and better understood by new christians???

Our works will be judged

Psa_7:8 The LORD shall judge the people: judge me,O LORD, according to my righteousness, and according to mine integrity that isin me.
Psa_43:1 Judge me, O God, and plead my causeagainst an ungodly nation: O deliver me from the deceitful and unjust man.
Isa_2:4 And he shall judge among the nations, andshall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, andtheir spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation,neither shall they learn war any more.
Isa_33:22 For the LORD is our judge, the LORD isour lawgiver, the LORD is our king; he will save us.
Mat_7:1 Judge not, that ye be not judged.
Heb_10:30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeancebelongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shalljudge his people.

 

[FranC]

We do agree, on how a child of God should act, but we can never get to that point, because we are stuck on the most important point,

We do not agree, on how one becomes a child of God.

A non believer can act on the outside like a believer, But what good will it do them if they are not born again of incorruptible seed?

OOOPS.

Silly me.

I just realized you've once again stated that I'm not born again,
only making believe on the outside and am lost on the inside,

and so once again you're sending me to you know where.

WHEN will you ever stop this?
I guess NEVER, until I agree with you.

And since you're not correct, you'll be sending me to that place many more times.

This is also very unchristianly of you, BTW.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

Forget about Ian Thomas Grace.
Maybe you read too much and not enough of the bible?

WHAT ARE WORKS OF THE FLESH?

Thanks.

Fran, I'm sorry that this is happening to you. I believe you have a great love for our Lord. And I haven't heard you say a single rough or ungentle thing in here, even when a term like pharisaical is used to describe you. That's a great encouragement to me and a good example and it shows me that someone is learning to walk by the Spirit.

Works of the flesh, to me, are...I'll give some examples.
If I control my tongue so that no one knows I got angry at them, when what I really wanted to do and what was in my heart at that moment was to blast them but good, and then I say I have never murdered, I am taking a work of the flesh and the letter of the law, and coming up with the conclusion that I did a good thing and was in obedience.

But God judges the heart and the inward thoughts. He doesn't judge as men do - He judges correctly.

So all around me then praise God for such a wonderful Christian woman who took someones blows peaceably and sweetly and did not retaliate or defend herself. They can't see my heart and so they judge by the outside of my cup. Meanwhile, I murdered the other person! And I'm still fuming and murdering two days later and having revenge fantasies where I carefully construct a way to get even (which knowing me probably involves searching for some sympathy from others at the way I was treated and involves great pleasure when others see them in a bad light for how they acted.) So a work of the flesh is very odious. It involves no love. My main concern as I didn't retaliate was how others would see and think of me, because I want the honor and approval of men. It wasn't love of the other person and love of God that stopped my tongue.

So...that is a despicable fleshly work.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

Or maybe I could condense it and say if the inside and the outside aren't in concert, there's a problem.

 

[miknik5]

A time (of darkness) is going to come when no man can work

Then what will we do ?

 

[Grace777x70]

Fran, I'm sorry that this is happening to you. I believe you have a great love for our Lord. And I haven't heard you say a single rough or ungentle thing in here, even when a term like pharisaical is used to describe you. That's a great encouragement to me and a good example and it shows me that someone is learning to walk by the Spirit.

Works of the flesh, to me, are...I'll give some examples.
If I control my tongue so that no one knows I got angry at them, when what I really wanted to do and what was in my heart at that moment was to blast them but good, and then I say I have never murdered, I am taking a work of the flesh and the letter of the law, and coming up with the conclusion that I did a good thing and was in obedience.

But God judges the heart and the inward thoughts. He doesn't judge as men do - He judges correctly.

So all around me then praise God for such a wonderful Christian woman who took someones blows peaceably and sweetly and did not retaliate or defend herself. They can't see my heart and so they judge by the outside of my cup. Meanwhile, I murdered the other person! And I'm still fuming and murdering two days later and having revenge fantasies where I carefully construct a way to get even (which knowing me probably involves searching for some sympathy from others at the way I was treated and involves great pleasure when others see them in a bad light for how they acted.) So a work of the flesh is very odious. It involves no love. My main concern as I didn't retaliate was how others would see and think of me, because I want the honor and approval of men. It wasn't love of the other person and love of God that stopped my tongue.

So...that is a despicable fleshly work.

Amen...

The flesh is a deceitful thing that tries to "mimic" the life of Christ but in reality it is trying to get life and blessings from what "it does" and not from the life of Christ Himself.

Just as Paul says: In his flesh dwells no good thing.

The flesh seeks it's own by "doing good works" and also seeks it's own by doing bad things that it thinks will being life to it.

There is "good " flesh and "bad" flesh but in the end it is all flesh. God says - no flesh shall glory in My presence.

Romans 7:18 (NASB)
[SUP]18 [/SUP] For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh; for the willing is present in me, but the doing of the good is not.

 

[Stephen63]

There are most definitely works of the flesh that believers can engage in. I always like Major Ian Thomas' quote on this issue.

I also realize this is offensive to works-based believers for the obvious reasons.

Here is one from Major Ian Thomas that drives the D.I.Y self-righteousness/holiness mindset crazy.

Quote:

You may have harnessed the energy of the flesh in an otherwise quite genuine desire to honor the Lord Jesus in your life. The flesh, which has its origin in Satan, will go along with you; to survive, it is quite prepared to engage in every form of Christian activity, even though this may seem to honor Christ.

The flesh will sing in the choir, teach Sunday school, preside at a deacons’ meeting, preach from the pulpit, organize an evangelistic crusade, go to Bible college, volunteer for the mission field, and a thousand other things, all of which may in themselves be otherwise legitimate, if only it can keep its neck out of the noose.

The flesh will threaten, shout, strut, domineer, sulk, plot, creep, beg, plead, or sob, whatever the situation may demand in the interests of its own survival. By any and all means it will seek to cause every Christian to live by his own strength instead of by the power and grace of the Lord Jesus, and to conclude that doing so is actually a good thing!

The characteristic of the spiritually immature is that they are unable to discern between good and evil (Hebrews 5:13-14), and the baby Christian, like the foolish Galatians, “having begun in the Spirit” still tries to be “made perfect by the flesh” (Galatians 3:3).

We must be particularly patient with those whose lack of understanding allows a genuine love for the Lord Jesus to be satisfied with, and sometimes to be quite enthusiastic about, Christian activities involving means and methods which are heavily contaminated by the flesh. These are more deserving of instruction than rebuke, for they are still in their spiritual babyhood.

.....The flesh will seek to produce the most plausible arguments in justification of its own illegitimate activities, even though these activities are only what the Bible calls “dead works” (Hebrews 6:1; 9:14) and not the “good works” which are truly the work of God.

“Good works” are those that have their origin in Jesus Christ, as Christ’s activity is released through your body because you present it to Him as a living sacrifice. You do this only by faith that expresses total dependence, as opposed to Adamic independence."



Major Ian Thomas: The Way Of The Flesh; from The Indwelling Life of Christ

Here is one from Major Ian Thomas that drives the D.I.Y self-righteousness/holiness mindset crazy

If I may speak for others on here, I don't think that bothered us the least little bit.

Why? Because we're not D.I.Y self-righteousness, that's why.

Which means every time you use the phrase "D.I.Y self-righteousness", you lie.

What do you expect? If it's not the truth, it's a lie.

Folks need to understand that the situation is either black(darkness) or white (light). THERE IS NO "BLESS YER HEART, THEY'RE TRYIN" GRAY.

No, there's no christian who simply "doesn't have it right, yet".

If we believe that, we might as well believe Universalism.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

Amen...

The flesh is a deceitful thing that tries to "mimic" the life of Christ but in reality it is trying to get life and blessings from what "it does" and not from the life of Christ Himself.

Just as Paul says: In his flesh dwells no good thing.

The flesh seeks it's own by "doing good works" and also seeks it's own by doing bad things that it thinks will being life to it.

There is "good " flesh and "bad" flesh but in the end it is all flesh. God says - no flesh shall glory in My presence.

Romans 7:18 (NASB)
[SUP]18 [/SUP] For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh; for the willing is present in me, but the doing of the good is not.

In my personal case, I wasn't trying to get life and blessings from God for my "works." I was trying to avoid my death. I didn't want to die to follow Him. I wanted to save my self life, my pride, my approval before men. So I kept trying harder and harder to be good. But the best I could do was be careful about what men saw on the outside. My MOST driving motive though, was to not pick up my cross and agree that I had to die and that I could not reform and save my life and also follow Him at the same time.