Consider a group of a hundred men. Each man has a say in the direction of the group. No man can leave the group. Circumcision of the group occurs. Those who believe separate from those who do not. As a believer, to be separated is to withdraw from active participation of said activity. God will take care of both who believe and those who do not. When those who do not, start to see the hands they have been counting on have been withdrawn because God forbids us to help, they may start to panic. That is the trigger. Unless everyone is woken up as it is said "in a flash". What options would be available to those who follow so that we might bring our nation to God and perhaps honor Him? Righteousness. Obtaining righteousness is said to come with the swaying to one's favor over those who have no righteousness. Having favor means our prayers have more weight. In effect, we voluntarily clean ourselves up so that God might answer our prayers for peace on the earth. It only takes one man to pull the 99 if God is leading the way. Any talk of fear casts doubt.
The Rapture
- Thread starter 2nicee
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
B
This only serves to show that you are not getting the point Christians are trying to make. You not mentioning the KJV doesn't solve the problem you have the biggest of which you cannot see.
You also contradict yourself. For instance, no Christian on here hates you unless he or she is a nominal Christian that doesn't know the Lord or is a wolf in sheep's clothing, but you don't believe there is anyone on here like that. If anyone follows your teachings it would beg the question is the person Christ's disciple or your disciple?
You don't have the support of true Christians doesn't that tell you something? I have received a lot of likes for the reproof I've given to you. Because many see the same thing accept for you.
With all due respect KJV1611, you really need to get on your face before God, and let your smiles and grins be turned to weeping asking Jesus to show you the truth as God sees it. We don't want to hear what you consider truth anymore. I would have to admonish Christians to put you on ignore hopefully that will help you see.
You also contradict yourself. For instance, no Christian on here hates you unless he or she is a nominal Christian that doesn't know the Lord or is a wolf in sheep's clothing, but you don't believe there is anyone on here like that. If anyone follows your teachings it would beg the question is the person Christ's disciple or your disciple?
You don't have the support of true Christians doesn't that tell you something? I have received a lot of likes for the reproof I've given to you. Because many see the same thing accept for you.
With all due respect KJV1611, you really need to get on your face before God, and let your smiles and grins be turned to weeping asking Jesus to show you the truth as God sees it. We don't want to hear what you consider truth anymore. I would have to admonish Christians to put you on ignore hopefully that will help you see.
In regards to God forbids. From my understanding, punishment occurs in the mind. When someone is punished, we experience this as having bad fortune. Despair is a good word to describe what many might recognize. What is keeping those who do not believe from falling into despair is our showing love to them. We are not giving them a reason to call upon God. This is a peaceful plan to allow God to work on others the way He has worked on our lives in my opinion.
So if I were to try to establish any position on the rapture pre/post trib stuff and try to do it with some type clarity then just the same as we look at each other and determine what position each of us hold based on the things we type and then hit enter,,,,,
Look at Matthew 24 and see the position Jesus holds,is he "pre or post"?,,,
Look at Matthew 24 and see the position Jesus holds,is he "pre or post"?,,,
Hello Bogadile,
Actually, I did not rename them to tribulation saints, the scripture did. The elder asks John:
"these in white robes who are they and where did they come from"
Now, John just previously wrote to the seven churches. Therefore, the very fact that the elder is asking John who this group demonstrates that they are not the church.
The other reason is that, the church is referred to throughout chapters 1 thru 3 and within those same chapters you will not find the word hagios translated as saints. Likewise, from chapter 4 onward, only the word hagios/saints is used and the word ekklesia/church is never seen again. That is not a coincidence and I am not the one who changed the use of the word from church to saints. God made a distinction here to demonstrate that the church is gone after the end of chapter 3.
In addition, for those who would put the gathering of the church as taking place when Christ returns to the earth to end the age, they always run into the same problem, which is that the wrath of God must take place in between now and the time that the Lord returns to the earth. Since the church is not appointed to suffer God's wrath, then we cannot enter into that time of wrath, which means that the church must be gathered prior to God's wrath. In fact, the Lord said that he would keep believers "out of" that hour of wrath. Scripture also states that Jesus rescues us from the coming wrath.
No my friend, the wrath that Jesus experienced for us was for any and all wrath. Regarding this, it is important to understand that there is a difference between the trials and tribulations that Jesus said all believer would experience vs. the coming wrath of God. It is the latter that we are not appointed to suffer and of course the wrath that will come as a result of condemning judgment. From the beginning of the church, currently and until the resurrection, all believers are susceptible to trials and tribulation. But we are not appointed to suffer God's coming wrath via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments.
Using Noah is not a good comparison. The reason that Noah and his family was not raptured, was because God needed him to repopulate the earth. All you are doing here is repeating a common apologetic. The church will be gathered first, because following that is when the day of the Lord will begin, the wrath of God, which we are not appointed to suffer.
Actually, I did not rename them to tribulation saints, the scripture did. The elder asks John:
"these in white robes who are they and where did they come from"
Now, John just previously wrote to the seven churches. Therefore, the very fact that the elder is asking John who this group demonstrates that they are not the church.
The other reason is that, the church is referred to throughout chapters 1 thru 3 and within those same chapters you will not find the word hagios translated as saints. Likewise, from chapter 4 onward, only the word hagios/saints is used and the word ekklesia/church is never seen again. That is not a coincidence and I am not the one who changed the use of the word from church to saints. God made a distinction here to demonstrate that the church is gone after the end of chapter 3.
In addition, for those who would put the gathering of the church as taking place when Christ returns to the earth to end the age, they always run into the same problem, which is that the wrath of God must take place in between now and the time that the Lord returns to the earth. Since the church is not appointed to suffer God's wrath, then we cannot enter into that time of wrath, which means that the church must be gathered prior to God's wrath. In fact, the Lord said that he would keep believers "out of" that hour of wrath. Scripture also states that Jesus rescues us from the coming wrath.
No my friend, the wrath that Jesus experienced for us was for any and all wrath. Regarding this, it is important to understand that there is a difference between the trials and tribulations that Jesus said all believer would experience vs. the coming wrath of God. It is the latter that we are not appointed to suffer and of course the wrath that will come as a result of condemning judgment. From the beginning of the church, currently and until the resurrection, all believers are susceptible to trials and tribulation. But we are not appointed to suffer God's coming wrath via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments.
Using Noah is not a good comparison. The reason that Noah and his family was not raptured, was because God needed him to repopulate the earth. All you are doing here is repeating a common apologetic. The church will be gathered first, because following that is when the day of the Lord will begin, the wrath of God, which we are not appointed to suffer.
Matthew 10:23 KJV
But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come.
Here's the position Jesus holds... before the time the disciple finnished preaching to the Jews, Jesus would have come again.
But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come.
Here's the position Jesus holds... before the time the disciple finnished preaching to the Jews, Jesus would have come again.
Only Pre Tribbers believe in a secret coming rapture and they even have the ''Secret'' part of the their teaching wrong. The secret aspect of the rapture originally meant that no one knew the teaching until it became 'revealed ' by those who started to spread it. It had nothing to do with Jesus coming secretly.
You wont even provide evidence that I'm wrong on anything I've said. Show me evidence that I'm wrong in saying that born again and saved are not the same things, or that there are 2 kingdoms of heaven or that we ARE NOT born again by the word of God... then I'll admit that I'm wrong and I will tell all the Christians here that I've "misled" that I was wrong and apologize to them and the Lord for leading them astray.
Start with PROVING that we AREN'T born again by the word of God.
Start with PROVING that we AREN'T born again by the word of God.
I would say that "coming like a thief" would qualify the event of the gathering of the church. "You don't know at what time your Lord will come."
"Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed—in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. "
The words "in a flash" is the Greek word "atomos" which is defined as an amount of time that is too short to be measured. So the event will take place so quickly that the only reason that people will know that it takes place is because of the world-wide report of missing people.
In opposition, those who have the church being gathered when the Lord returns to the earth to end the age, are not trusting in the Lord's promise to keep believers out of that time of wrath.
"Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed—in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. "
The words "in a flash" is the Greek word "atomos" which is defined as an amount of time that is too short to be measured. So the event will take place so quickly that the only reason that people will know that it takes place is because of the world-wide report of missing people.
In opposition, those who have the church being gathered when the Lord returns to the earth to end the age, are not trusting in the Lord's promise to keep believers out of that time of wrath.
Joel 2:9-11 KJV
They shall run to and fro in the city; they shall run upon the wall, they shall climb up upon the houses; they shall enter in at the windows like a thief.
[10] The earth shall quake before them; the heavens shall tremble: the sun and the moon shall be dark, and the stars shall withdraw their shining:
[11] And the Lord shall utter his voice before his army: for his camp is very great: for he is strong that executeth his word: for the day of the Lord is great and very terrible; and who can abide it?
I wonder if Jesus MAY have been trying to draw the Jews attention to Joel 2: 9-11? Of course not right, I mean Jesus would never reference old testament scriptures to let the Jews know that prophecies were about to be fulfilled in them.
They shall run to and fro in the city; they shall run upon the wall, they shall climb up upon the houses; they shall enter in at the windows like a thief.
[10] The earth shall quake before them; the heavens shall tremble: the sun and the moon shall be dark, and the stars shall withdraw their shining:
[11] And the Lord shall utter his voice before his army: for his camp is very great: for he is strong that executeth his word: for the day of the Lord is great and very terrible; and who can abide it?
I wonder if Jesus MAY have been trying to draw the Jews attention to Joel 2: 9-11? Of course not right, I mean Jesus would never reference old testament scriptures to let the Jews know that prophecies were about to be fulfilled in them.
So the tribulation saints are not part of the Church? If they believe in Jesus, how are they not in the Church?
I realize you say they missed the rapture so now they have to go through it, but why? If they place their faith in Jesus Christ now they should immediately be raptured as well by that logic, since Jesus suffered all their wrath, why would it be "too late"?
I realize you say they missed the rapture so now they have to go through it, but why? If they place their faith in Jesus Christ now they should immediately be raptured as well by that logic, since Jesus suffered all their wrath, why would it be "too late"?
Has any pre-trib Christian thought of their position from the point of view of the disciples?
Jesus shared the Olivet discourse in Matthew 24 with His disciples, and told them AFTER the tribulation the gathering occurs (Matthew 24:29-31).
Now few years later after His ascension He tells Paul a completely different doctrine, how do you think the disciples would of received that doctrine? Most likely they would of said that Jesus taught us something else. The common way to get around this is to say Matthew 24 was written to Jews only, however this was clearly spoken to the disciples, who would have been raptured before any of this occured according to pre-trib believers. Another way to explain this away is to say that the gathering in v31 is different than the one in 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 which when compared do look very very similar.
Now this is all assuming futurism of course. Just making a point here that should not this concern you somewhat?
Jesus shared the Olivet discourse in Matthew 24 with His disciples, and told them AFTER the tribulation the gathering occurs (Matthew 24:29-31).
Now few years later after His ascension He tells Paul a completely different doctrine, how do you think the disciples would of received that doctrine? Most likely they would of said that Jesus taught us something else. The common way to get around this is to say Matthew 24 was written to Jews only, however this was clearly spoken to the disciples, who would have been raptured before any of this occured according to pre-trib believers. Another way to explain this away is to say that the gathering in v31 is different than the one in 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 which when compared do look very very similar.
Now this is all assuming futurism of course. Just making a point here that should not this concern you somewhat?
No. How can Jesus give a date for the 2nd Coming, (gathering of the Saints)? This is mad.
29 [Immediately after the tribulation of those days] (AD73) [shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:] (The Law is dead, Israel is cast out of covenant and ceases to be a nation, and is now in exile, in bondage, worldwide - see Ezekiel 32) 30 [And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven:] (book of Revelation is given to John for the unveiling of Christ to the Church) and [then] (next sequential event: can happen 1 day, 1 year, 1000 years, 10,000 years after, we do not know) shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
29 [Immediately after the tribulation of those days] (AD73) [shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:] (The Law is dead, Israel is cast out of covenant and ceases to be a nation, and is now in exile, in bondage, worldwide - see Ezekiel 32) 30 [And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven:] (book of Revelation is given to John for the unveiling of Christ to the Church) and [then] (next sequential event: can happen 1 day, 1 year, 1000 years, 10,000 years after, we do not know) shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
"These things" is nothing to do with the 2nd coming; that is 'that' day and hour. Jesus is purposefully distinguishing the two. The only reason he has gone from AD70/73 to his second coming is that the disciples asked when he was coming back.
35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
"These things" is nothing to do with the 2nd coming; that is 'that' day and hour. Jesus is purposefully distinguishing the two. The only reason he has gone from AD70/73 to his second coming is that the disciples asked when he was coming back.