BAPTISM --- TWICE ??

[breno785au]

Very critical.
I don't suppose you'd say that to the pope's face?
And what makes protestants so special?

Of course I would Why wouldnt I?

How is that mocking God?
God is mocked when you do something you don't believe in.
Either as an individual or as a Church.

If a Church BELIEVES theyì're doing the right procedure, they aren't mocking God.

You could be of the opinion that it doesn't count, but mocking is taking it a bit too far, no?

I look around the room I'm in at work and everyone believes how they think and what they do is right in their own eyes but none of it matches up to God's standard. I could be thinking or doing many things that I think I'm doing right until God sheds light on it to show me otherwise.
There is nothing (that I am aware of) that says if a baby isn't baptised that it is going to hell...that is my understanding of why babies are baptised, please correct me if I'm wrong. And it does not mean that when they die as an adult that they will be with our Father. One MUST be born again.

 

[pottersclay]

Baptism was very important to Jesus. According to scripture the event alone is the first sign of surrender to obedience. The submerging repersents the death and Resurrection of Christ. It is done publicly as a outward expression of ones belief.
Also it is considered a act of humility as you are asking to be washed and that Christ is the only one that can clean you.

Jesus said unless you let me wash you , you have no part of me. Weather he was talking about baptism being a part of that cleansing one only knows.

 

[FranC]

Hi FranC,

I believe infant (baby) Baptism is not Biblical. Baptism is a declaration to the world that you have accepted God as your personal savior, and you have chosen to die to your life of sin, repentance and chosen through resurrection (rising from the water) to walk in newness of life. It is the washing away of Sins. Baptism follows repentance. An infant does not even know they are sinner let alone who God is.

Scriptural proof:

Act 2:41
Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.

Act 22:16
And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

Act 2:37-38,
Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?Then Peter said unto them, (1) Repent, and be (1) baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.Act 18:8
And Crispus, the chief ruler of the synagogue, believed on the Lord with all his house; and many of the Corinthians hearing (1) believed, and (2) were baptized.

Act 19:3-5,
And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism. Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus. When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

Rom 6:1-8,
What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. For he that is dead is freed from sin. Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:

Gal 3:27,
For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

Mat 3:5,
Then went out to him Jerusalem, and all Judaea, and all the region round about Jordan,
Mat 3:6, And were baptized of him in Jordan, confessing their sins.

Mar 1:5 And there went out unto him all the land of Judaea, and they of Jerusalem, and were all baptized of him in the river of Jordan, confessing their sins.

Act 8:36,
And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?

Act 8:37,
And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

Act 8:38,
And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him.

Act 10:47-48,
Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.

Sorry I have probably overdone it with all the scripture. Hope it is helpful

God bless

I agree. The PARENTS are requesting the baptism for an infant. Why? Because, as you've said, he cannot do this for himself.
He cannot believe in Jesus. One of the instructions is repent... another is believe in the gospel. Both impossible. Just as you've posted.

And...you can't over do it with scripture.
In fact, I just copied and saved the above for future reference!

You did a good job...
Thanks.

Fran

 

[AllenW]

It sounds to me like that Nazarene church wants to get their claws into your brother.
Tell him to go find a church that doesn't have any man made rules.
And when he finds it, let me know, so I can go there too.

 

[dcontroversal]

Let's clarify a little more...

You call it an "identifier"
I've taught the covenants and I would call it the "sign" of the covenant.

In the Abrahamic Covenant the Sign is Circumcision.

This is when the history of the O.T. starts so I'd agree you could call it that, let's just clarify that when one is speaking NOT OF THE O.T. but of the Old Covenant, or Mosaic covenant, then the Sign is: The Sabbath.

As far as the New Covenant, some theologians believe the Sign is the Eucharist or Communion
and some believe it is Baptism, as you've stated.

I like to think it's communion since it was such an important part of Jesus' message.
"Do this in memory of Me". Also baptism was also done in the O.T. (have you considered this??)

But, no matter.

I DO wonder why Jesus' thought it was important to get baptized.
I believe it has more to do with power.
With John the Baptist it had more to do with remission of sins.

A. I agree it is in the O.T. collectively and found in the crossing of the Red Sea and Jordan.......The first being the generation that escaped Egypt at the result of the Passover the Second the new generation raised in the Wilderness of SIN.

B. The 1st sign given unto Abraham sometime after he was declared righteous by faith was circumcision which separated him from the people of his day. Same is true of Immersion which is compared to the flood.....the water is what separated those who perished in the flood from those who were preserved in the ARK (a type of Christ pitched with pitch within and without)

C. John was a transitional hinge pin between the O.T. and the N.T. (Jesus said the law and the prophets were until John) John prepared the "material" that Jesus would CALL OUT (EKKLESIA) and organize into his first New Testament Church and Jesus himself to be a part of that group was immersed by John as well (Jesus was born, lived and died under the O.T. system which ratified the NEW. From that day forward Immersion is in the name of the Father, SON and H.S. and again is an identifier with Jesus.

 

[PrynceNY]

If anyone actually believes the Lord sends babys to hell they truly dont know the character of God. Infant baptism always seemed pagan to me.

 

[FlSnookman7]

Baptism is a wonderful outward show of faith and obedience but it does not save anybody. Jesus and Jesus alone saves. The theif on the cross next to Jesus was not baptized but he was saved. I often wonder when I see arguments about these things if those arguing are trying to edify God or just prove a point. By all means get baptized, by all means be obedient but please know it is faith in Christ alone that saves.

 

[FranC]

a. Obviously all Immersions should be in the name of the Father, Son and H.S. and will say that total IMMERSION is the only acceptable form.

b. Acts 18:25-19:5 Now a Jew named Apollos, an Alexandrian by birth, an eloquent man, came to Ephesus; and he was mighty in the Scriptures. This man was instructed in the way of the Lord; and being fervent in the spirit, he spake and taught diligently the things of the Lord, knowing only the baptism of John. And he began to speak boldly in the synagogue: whom when Aquila and Priscilla had heard, they took him unto them, and expounded unto him the way of God more perfectly. And when he was disposed to pass into Achaia, the brethren wrote, exhorting the disciples to receive him: who, when he was come, helped them much which had believed through grace: For he mightily convinced the Jews, and that publickly, shewing by the scriptures that Jesus was Christ. It happened that while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul passed through the upper country and came to Ephesus, and found some disciples. He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost. And he said, "Into what then were you baptized?" And they said, "Into John's baptism." Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus. When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

c. The contradiction made by Jesus seems to be between being born of the flesh and born of the spirit.....

d. Any group that teaches contrary to the truth and that cannot be tied dia the truth to what was started by Jesus himself.....there are core doctrines that identify a group as a New Testament Church....

Thanks for the scripture.
John's Baptism
Jesus' Baptism
They're indeed different.

There's a church here that believes you could be saved AFTER DEATH.
If THEY baptize an adult, you'd say it's not valid.
Is that right?
Even if they're immersed and the FORM is correct?

 

[FranC]

It sounds to me like that Nazarene church wants to get their claws into your brother.
Tell him to go find a church that doesn't have any man made rules.
And when he finds it, let me know, so I can go there too.

GREAT POST !!

Get on line...!

 

[FranC]

Baptism is a wonderful outward show of faith and obedience but it does not save anybody. Jesus and Jesus alone saves. The theif on the cross next to Jesus was not baptized but he was saved. I often wonder when I see arguments about these things if those arguing are trying to edify God or just prove a point. By all means get baptized, by all means be obedient but please know it is faith in Christ alone that saves.

AMEN.

BTW,
Are you ever gonna cook up that fish?

 

[PrynceNY]

Thanks for the scripture. John's Baptism Jesus' Baptism They're indeed different. There's a church here that believes you could be saved AFTER DEATH. If THEY baptize an adult, you'd say it's not valid. Is that right? Even if they're immersed and the FORM is correct?

No one can be saved after death thats false teachings

 

[FranC]

If anyone actually believes the Lord sends babys to hell they truly dont know the character of God. Infant baptism always seemed pagan to me.

Who said God sends babies to hell??

 

[PrynceNY]

Who said God sends babies to hell??

Why would the catholic church baptize babies?

 

[FranC]

A. I agree it is in the O.T. collectively and found in the crossing of the Red Sea and Jordan.......The first being the generation that escaped Egypt at the result of the Passover the Second the new generation raised in the Wilderness of SIN.

B. The 1st sign given unto Abraham sometime after he was declared righteous by faith was circumcision which separated him from the people of his day. Same is true of Immersion which is compared to the flood.....the water is what separated those who perished in the flood from those who were preserved in the ARK (a type of Christ pitched with pitch within and without)

C. John was a transitional hinge pin between the O.T. and the N.T. (Jesus said the law and the prophets were until John) John prepared the "material" that Jesus would CALL OUT (EKKLESIA) and organize into his first New Testament Church and Jesus himself to be a part of that group was immersed by John as well (Jesus was born, lived and died under the O.T. system which ratified the NEW. From that day forward Immersion is in the name of the Father, SON and H.S. and again is an identifier with Jesus.

A. Good.
B. Good.

C. John the Baptist was the last O.T. Prophet. Jesus was also a prophet but we place Him in the N.T. and also because He was a special prophet. (also a King and a Priest).

When you speak about the "material" that would be called out EKKLESIA, which means church, I suppose you're referring the the Kingdom of God? Or are you referring to the Body of Christ?

 

[graceNpeace]

I was presented with a question that I'd never thought of before.

My Brother, a former Catholic (as am I) has been attending a non-denominational Church.

He decided, a few months ago, to switch and go to a Nazarene Church; which I happen to like.

The pastor there told my Brother, Frank, that he should be baptized again if he wanted to join the "community".


1. He was already baptized as a baby in the Catholic Church.

2. Is that not valid for a Protestant Church?

3 Why would he have to get baptized again?


My personal feeling is that baptism counts whenever a person is baptized.
Jesus' command in Mathew 28:19 is being followed even though a person is an infant.


Any thoughts?

Water baptism is a public confession of an already accomplished inner reality.
How and where does pedo-baptism fit into this definition of water baptism?
How can an infant with no concept of spiritual matters be born again and now be seeking water baptism as a public confession of that faith?

In another post you mention that pedo-baptism should be valid if the church that did it (in this case the RCC) sincerely believe in what they are doing.
Well, the logic of that is horrifying...
The bottom line is that there is NO Biblical evidence for pedo-baptism.
All that happened to your brother was he got wet as an infant and had no idea why...

Yes, if he now confesses Jesus Christ as his saviour then he should be water baptised!

 

[FranC]

Why would the catholic church baptize babies?

For a pretty good reason if you understand their doctrine.

They believe in original sin. Adam commited the first original sin and they believe it is passed down to every human.
Protestants believe that we are not imputed with Adam's sin and that only the EFFECTS of it are passed down to us.

Since God is pure and cannot be in the presence of sin, they feel Original Sin MUST be removed from the baby as soon as possible. This is because they were not sure where babies that died unbaptized would end up. Somewhere outside the presence of God, but not in purgatory or hell. Someone came up with the term "limbo" but it's not an officially accepted term.

It's accepted that God is merciful and that most probably the baby would go to be with God, but they'll say that this cannot be assured.

In any case, the baby would NOT go to hell.

 

[FranC]

Baptism was very important to Jesus. According to scripture the event alone is the first sign of surrender to obedience. The submerging repersents the death and Resurrection of Christ. It is done publicly as a outward expression of ones belief.
Also it is considered a act of humility as you are asking to be washed and that Christ is the only one that can clean you.

Jesus said unless you let me wash you , you have no part of me. Weather he was talking about baptism being a part of that cleansing one only knows.

This made me think of the Washing of the Feet.
John 13:5-10

Peter did not want Jesus to wash his feet.
jesus answered that if Peter did not let Him wash Peter's feet, he would have no part with Jesus.

Peter had to accept Jesus' love. Not Always easy to do. Not easy to have one's feet washed. Have you ever tried?

He who has already bathed, need only clean their feet.
They were saved, but need only to have their sins washed away.

Jesus washes us clean.
Then little sins dirty us and ONLY the little sins need to be washed because we're already saved and clean.

 

[PrynceNY]

For a pretty good reason if you understand their doctrine. They believe in original sin. Adam commited the first original sin and they believe it is passed down to every human. Protestants believe that we are not imputed with Adam's sin and that only the EFFECTS of it are passed down to us. Since God is pure and cannot be in the presence of sin, they feel Original Sin MUST be removed from the baby as soon as possible. This is because they were not sure where babies that died unbaptized would end up. Somewhere outside the presence of God, but not in purgatory or hell. Someone came up with the term "limbo" but it's not an officially accepted term. It's accepted that God is merciful and that most probably the baby would go to be with God, but they'll say that this cannot be assured. In any case, the baby would NOT go to hell.

Do you personally believe in those doctrines

 

[AllenW]

Of course I would Why wouldnt I?


I look around the room I'm in at work and everyone believes how they think and what they do is right in their own eyes but none of it matches up to God's standard. I could be thinking or doing many things that I think I'm doing right until God sheds light on it to show me otherwise.
There is nothing (that I am aware of) that says if a baby isn't baptised that it is going to hell...that is my understanding of why babies are baptised, please correct me if I'm wrong. And it does not mean that when they die as an adult that they will be with our Father. One MUST be born again.

Are you kidding me?

"Of course I would Why wouldnt I?"

You wouldn't get anywhere near him.
His security guards would pick you up and throw you away before you got anywhere near him.
Do you think they're stupid?
Or do you really think you could get to talk to him and tell him what you think?

And if you ever did get face to face with him, I doubt you would be so arrogant.

 

[FranC]

Do you personally believe in those doctrines

I don't. I'm Protestant in theology.
But they do have some doctrine I believe in.
They do teach a lot of good theology.
And a lot of bad doctrine....