BAPTISM --- TWICE ??

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Apr 30, 2016
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No...once a person dies their fate is sealed....Mormons do that and they called Baptismal Proxy for the dead which is why they are the leading experts on genealogies....it is false and contrary to the truth!

and NO I am not saying immersing an adult is not valid....unless there was no profession of faith .....all they got was wet!
Just to clarify...

I DO NOT believe one could be saved after Death --- I was just mentioning the Church that does.

So, you believe that even though a Church has INCORRECT DOCTRINE, IF THEY baptize a person it IS valid?

Right?

I do believe this. I'm thinking that baptism is a REAL moving of the spririt, a real change in the spirit of a person.
I don't understand the change yet in a baby. Maybe there really isn't any in that case...
 
Apr 30, 2016
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I believe Jesus waited to get baptized until He was an adult in order to show us you don't get baptized as a baby, child, or teenager. As long as someone is still growing taller, they are still not an adult, and should be under the authority of their parents. "Children obey your parents in the Lord, for this is right." When you get baptized you are now making decisions for yourself instead of someone making them on your behalf.

All in that household could have been adults. There is no example or order to baptize babies, kids, or teens, so you can't conclude that. But Jesus had no sin to wash away- so you can conclude that He was showing us what to do because He's our Leader and we must follow His example.

To get baptized is to die to yourself, bury your sinful self in the watery grave of baptism, and be raised a new creature in Christ. What saves us from our sins? Christ's blood. Where did Jesus shed His blood? In His death. "Or don't you know that all who were baptized into Christ were baptized into His death? In order that just as He was raised from the dead, we might also walk in newness of life." Romans 6:3 (Those in Christ will be saved, and this is how we get into Christ).

This is obeying the gospel. The Bible says that the gospel is the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ. It also says, "With flames of fire (hell) He will take vengeance on those who know not God, and who obey not the gospel of His Son."

A false religion is one that does not match the doctrine of Christ (New Testament/New Covenant). Such as religions that teach all you have to do is believe, or ask Jesus into your heart. The Bible says "If anyone comes to you with a different gospel, do not let him into your house." That would have not been said if God didn't foreknow that there would be different gospels introduced. There are not many faiths (beliefs)- there is only one real Lord, Faith, and Baptism. All others are false.

1Peter 3:21 "This water symbolized baptism- which now saves you. Not by removing dirt from the body, but by a clean conscience toward God." When you are baptized God performs 'circumcision of the heart' (Colossians 2:14).

Believing did not save Paul. Fasting did not save Paul. Being healed did not save Paul. Praying did not save Paul from his sins- so what did? Ananias said to Paul "What are you waiting for? Arise, be baptized and wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord."
Your post is to BillG.

I can agree with all of it. Even the idea that teens should not be baptized.
My daugter became born again at the age of 14 and she still is. She has a family now.

However, many teens THINK they want to follow God and then fall away.
As you believe, I also believe that one must continue in the faith to be saved.

However, you said something in your last statement that I don't understand.
Are you saying that Paul was not saved UNTIL he was baptized??
 
Nov 22, 2015
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I have a son that was born-again when he was young ( where he was baptized into Christ ) - and here is the absolute truth part - He is still my son no matter what he did or didn't do. He is my son "by birth".

He cannot "un-born " himself from being my son no matter how messed up in his mind and thinking he gets.
 
Apr 30, 2016
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I was baptized as a Catholic in 1995 in the military, back when I didn't even believe in God and was just going through the motions "just in case". I don't have any interest in going through another baptism. Even if supposing I someday become a believer and consider myself "saved", I'm still not going to do it. No good reason. Just don't want to.

I've asked about baptism in the past around my town, and the only ones willing to do it are through specific churches, and I am not about to hang my hat on any specific denomination. I'm not joining a [fill in the blank] church.

I'm ignorant, stubborn, cantankerous, unwilling to learn, argumentative, and I enjoy being the odd one out, so take any of what I've just said as the ranting of a secular loser and disregard it.

...you asked for my thoughts though, so that's what you got.
I'm soooo confused YiG,

The baptism you celebrated in 1995 is of no value to you UNELSS you become born again.
Baptism, of itself, does not save a person.

IF you become a beleiver, and I pray you do, THEN that baptism will be valid.

You do not, IMO, need to be baptized again, especially not to belong to a denomination - which is my entire problem with my Brother getting baptized again.

Why do you want to be the odd one out?
Why do you want to be a secular loser?

If you know a secular person is a loser, why would you want to be one of your own free-will ?

Look at your name. Do you not believe in Yahweh?
Certainly God must exist...
 
Apr 30, 2016
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So.... when he prays about it, what does the Spirit tell him in his heart on the matter? That should be the litmus test.

My daughter was 'sprinkled' and dedicated in a church when she was 2. That was more for me... publically committing to my church that I would raise her in a Christian home /model Christian values. She was saved when she was 9 but rededicated her life last year at the age of 13 and requested to be baptised then. We had many conversations prior to it as to the meaning of that and she was adamant that she was ready and wanted it. It wasn't 'forced' or required by our church so I have every confidence she knew what it meant and wanted to do it.

I have been baptized twice - the first was at age 7 when I dedicated my life to Christ. Baptism was a requirement of the church I attended then, but I knew what I was doing and was happy to do it. I was baptized again when I was 22. It was a very personal decision. I don't believe the first one was any less 'valid' (even though it was required) because my spirit was in agreement with it. However, at the age of 22, I was undergoing some significant spiritual growth and wanted to personally connect with God in that particular way. I don't regret or doubt either experience.

So, this is all to say... yes, the Bible says we should. Beyond that, it is a very personal experience and one that should come from the heart. (God sees the heart after all... I Samuel 16:7).
I understand all you say,

but it's kind of confirming what One Faith stated:
children and teenagers should not be baptized.

Maybe this is why.
We cannot now what we're really doing until a certain age when we become truly mature.
 
B

BeyondET

Guest
Well I guess there's no chance of baptism for all the Hellen Keller's of the world, the severely mental disordered, the comatose etc.

if one can't comprehend then they are out of luck, gee this sounds morbid.
 
Apr 30, 2016
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I think he was grasping a little bit.... in that society, children were not usually discussed much... when talking about "everyone", I believe they nearly were always talking about adults. Unless the discussion was specifically about a child, or children. Many times, "everyone" didn't even include women... only grown men.

So, I think that most scholars would conclude that "all of his household" meant only the adults...

If you take the majority of the examples in scripture, there is no way that a baby, or even a young child could meet the description of a person needing/wanting baptism....

reading what WE want into scripture is not a good practice....this is why we have so many different "right" denominations now.. what does the word say, when read prayerfully, and honestly, with no agenda?
I agree with what you've said except the part about women, MAYBE, not being baptized.
Jesus made it a point to include women in His preaching and in His ministry.
Woman were honored LESS at the time of Jesus than at the time of Moses.
So, I'd have to say that in the preaching of Paul and Peter and the Others, they did include women although
they did not want them to preach.

As for AllenW's comment, I think there's a misunderstanding.
Here's his post...It looks like he's agreeing with you about children being baptized:


Originally Posted by AllenW View Post

In Acts 16:31 and beyond, salvation was offered to the jailer and his household.
The jailer believed, had his whole household baptized, then they rejoiced because THEY ALL BELIEVED IN GOD!
Therefore, infants could not have been included unless they had the ability to believe.
 
Apr 30, 2016
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Sorry I should have clarified.

I mentioned in my post that I was baptised (well sprinkled) in an Anglican.

What I did not say that before it happened the youth pastor questioned one day to me that I shouldn't get baptised because I let a swear word slip. His words were "That's why I don't want to baptise you"

So that's what I meant by regeneration, that one life.

So a person does not have to be seen to be conforming to a particular lifestyle in order to be saved.

That's the biggest stumbling block that I see in believers who have not been baptised and that is "I still sin"
If we waited for everyone to stop sinning to be baptized,
no one would ever get baptized!

(very bad belief system...)
 

AllenW

Senior Member
Apr 20, 2016
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I could be allowed,
but what would be the point?

Do you agree with the idea of original sin?
Original sin?
The catholic church pounded that into my head as a kid.
where is it in the Bible?
 

AllenW

Senior Member
Apr 20, 2016
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That is an extremely bad precedent to set... if scripture doesn't say you can't do it, then it's ok to do it?

So, watermelon or tomato juice would be ok for communion? Fruit of the vine, right?

Baptizing in a large vat of beer ok? Doesn't say you can't....

How about baptizing our pets?

The word never mentioned marijuana, or LSD either... so, why not?

I mean, come on.... you have to use some genuine discernment here...
Lol, those are some good examples;

Being baptized in a vat of beer...

Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaa

That's good!

And baptizing pets, please stop, some people will start doing it..

But drugs I believe are mentioned, sort of, when Paul tells Timothy I believe that we need to always be sober minded.
 
Apr 30, 2016
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Well I guess there's no chance of baptism for all the Hellen Keller's of the world, the severely mental disordered, the comatose etc.

if one can't comprehend then they are out of luck, gee this sounds morbid.
Who said this?
My grandaughter is autistic and saved.
 
B

BeyondET

Guest
Aren't we all just babies anyways in the eyes of the Lord no matter what age a person is. lol
 
Apr 30, 2016
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Original sin?
The catholic church pounded that into my head as a kid.
where is it in the Bible?
That's what they call the first sin commited.
The first disobedience toward God.

The difference is that they impute this sin to all mankind.
Protestants don't --- we believe we just suffer from the effects of original sin.

It's in the bible... it's just that it's seen differently by different theologians.
Some impute
Some don't

Both agree that the effects are with us. (of course).
 
Apr 30, 2016
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Aren't we all just babies anyways in the eyes of the Lord no matter what age a person is. lol
I'd say we're worse than babies to Him !

So, you believe it's OK to baptize a baby and it's valid ??
 

notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
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Jesus blessed the children and did not teach that they should be baptized.

Water baptism is of no merit in the salvation of the soul. Holy Spirit baptism is the regenerating power of salvation. While baptizing babies may feel good it does nothing for their eternal souls.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 
B

BeyondET

Guest
I'd say we're worse than babies to Him !

So, you believe it's OK to baptize a baby and it's valid ??
I'm surely not going to tell God which baptism is valid and which ones are not.

Jesus placed His hands on babies and blessed them, was this a spiritual baptism?
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
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All in that household could have been adults. There is no example or order to baptize babies, kids, or teens, so you can't conclude that. But Jesus had no sin to wash away- so you can conclude that He was showing us what to do because He's our Leader and we must follow His example.
Acts 16:31 - (AMP) - And they answered, “Believe in the Lord Jesus [as your personal Savior and entrust yourself to Him] and you will be saved, you and your household [if they also believe].” Paul did not say believe and get water baptized and you will be saved. Water baptism FOLLOWS believe/saved (Acts 10:43-47; 11:17; 15:8,9).

To get baptized is to die to yourself, bury your sinful self in the watery grave of baptism, and be raised a new creature in Christ. What saves us from our sins? Christ's blood. Where did Jesus shed His blood? In His death. "Or don't you know that all who were baptized into Christ were baptized into His death? In order that just as He was raised from the dead, we might also walk in newness of life." Romans 6:3 (Those in Christ will be saved, and this is how we get into Christ).
Because of your church of Christ indoctrination, you are confusing the picture (water baptism) with the reality (Spirit baptism). As Greek scholar AT Robertson said - "a symbol is not the reality, but the picture of the reality." -http://www.biblestudytools.com/commentaries/robertsons-word-pictures/romans/romans-6-4.html

1 Corinthians 12:13 - For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free—and have all been made to drink into one Spirit.

This is obeying the gospel. The Bible says that the gospel is the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ. It also says, "With flames of fire (hell) He will take vengeance on those who know not God, and who obey not the gospel of His Son."
Getting water baptized is not how we obey the gospel. We obey the gospel by choosing to believe the gospel. Romans 10:16 - But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, "Lord, who has believed our report?"

A false religion is one that does not match the doctrine of Christ (New Testament/New Covenant). Such as religions that teach all you have to do is believe, or ask Jesus into your heart.
What did Jesus say in John 3:15,16,18; 6:40,47; 11:25,26. BELIEVE. What did Peter say in Acts 10:43? BELIEVE. What did Paul say in Romans 1:16; 4:5; 10:4 etc..? BELIEVE. A false religion is one that perverts the gospel of Christ by "adding works" to it (including water baptism).

The Bible says "If anyone comes to you with a different gospel, do not let him into your house." That would have not been said if God didn't foreknow that there would be different gospels introduced. There are not many faiths (beliefs)- there is only one real Lord, Faith, and Baptism. All others are false.
Those of the one real Faith are those who have placed their Faith (belief, trust, reliance) in Christ alone for salvation (and not in water and works). There is only one Baptism that places us into the body of Christ and that is Spirit Baptism (1 Corinthians 12:13), not water baptism.

1Peter 3:21 "This water symbolized baptism- which now saves you. Not by removing dirt from the body, but by a clean conscience toward God." When you are baptized God performs 'circumcision of the heart' (Colossians 2:14).
Peter tells us that baptism now saves you, yet when Peter uses this phrase he continues in the same sentence to explain exactly what he means by it. He says that baptism now saves you-not the removal of dirt from the flesh (that is, not as an outward, physical act which washes dirt from the body--that is not what saves you), "but an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ" (that is, as an inward, spiritual transaction between God and the individual, a transaction that is symbolized by the outward ceremony of water baptism). Just as the eight people in the ark were "saved THROUGH water" as they were IN THE ARK. They were not literally saved "by" the water. Hebrews 11:7 is clear on this point (..built an ARK for the SAVING of his household). *NOTE: The context reveals that ONLY the righteous (Noah and his family) were DRY and therefore SAFE. In contrast, ONLY THE WICKED IN NOAH'S DAY CAME IN CONTACT WITH THE WATER AND THEY ALL PERISHED.

Paul clearly teaches that what is signified in baptism (buried and raised with Christ) actually occurs "through faith." Christians are "buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead" (Colossians 2:12). Justification on account of union in Christ's death, burial and resurrection is brought about “through faith” - and is properly symbolized by dipping the new believer in and out of the water.

Romans 2:29 - but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the Spirit, not in the letter; whose praise is not from men but from God.

Believing did not save Paul. Fasting did not save Paul. Being healed did not save Paul. Praying did not save Paul from his sins- so what did?
Believing saved Paul, just as it saved the jailor as well in Acts 16:31. The first question that must be answered is "when was Paul saved?" Paul tells that he did not receive or hear the Gospel from Ananias, but rather he heard it directly from Christ. Galatians 1:11-12 says, "For I would have you know, brethren, that the gospel which was preached by me is not according to man. For I neither received it from man, nor was I taught it, but I received it through a revelation of Jesus Christ."

Paul had repented (Acts 9:6). "Lord, what will you have me to do?" Repentance means a "change of mind," and is wrought by the grace of God. Paul once persecuted the Lord (Acts 9:5), but is now ready to serve Him demonstrating the fruit of repentance (Matthew 3:8; Acts 26:20). Paul had believed. He had Christ as his Lord (Acts 9:6). The Bible tells us that "no man can say that Jesus is Lord except "by" the Holy Spirit (1 Corinthians 12:3). Paul had, by the work of the Holy Spirit, submitted to Christ as Lord.

Paul prayed (Acts 9:11). "Behold, he is praying," the Lord said to Ananias. This indicates that Paul's praying was pleasing to God. Campbellites teach that God does not hear an unsaved man's prayer, quoting in this regard John 9:31 - "We know that God does not listen to sinners. He listens to the godly man who does his will." Well, Paul was a worshipper of God, calling Christ "Lord" and ready to do His will. All of these things characterized Paul before he was baptized. So, Paul heard and believed in Christ on the road to Damascus. Paul had already believed in Christ when Ananias came to pray for him to receive his sight (Acts 9:17).

It also should be noted that Paul at the time when Ananias prayed for him to receive his sight, he was filled with the Holy Spirit (Acts 9:17)--this was before he was baptized (Acts 9:18). Acts 9 does not specifically tell us when Saul was filled with the Spirit, but verse 17 connects his being filled with the Spirit with the receiving of his sight. *We know that he received his sight prior to his water baptism.

It's also interesting that when Paul recounted this event again later in Acts (Acts 26:12-18), he did not mention Ananias or what Ananias said to him at all. Verse 18 again would confirm the idea that Paul received Christ as Savior on the road to Damascus since here Christ is telling Paul he will be a messenger for Him concerning forgiveness of sins for Gentiles as they have faith in Him. It would seem unlikely that Christ would commission Paul if Paul had not yet believed in Him and was not saved.

Ananias said to Paul "What are you waiting for? Arise, be baptized and wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord."
This "washing away of sin" in water baptism was only "formal" or symbolic. As Greek scholar AT Robertson points out - baptism here pictures the washing away of sins by the blood of Christ. Water baptism does not wash the soul. This occurred earlier when Paul came to faith in Christ. Jamison, Fausset, and Brown Commentary makes not of the importance of the Greek in Ananias' statement. When Ananias tells Paul to "arise, be baptized, wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord," the tense of the last command is literally "having called" (aorist middle participle). "Calling on [epikalesamenos] --- 'having (that is, after having) called on,' referring the confession of Christ which preceded baptism." [Jamison, Fausset, and Brown Commentary, vol. 3 pg. 160]. Kenneth Wuest picks up on this Greek nuance and translates the verse as follows: "And now, why are you delaying? Having arisen, be baptized and wash away your sins, having previously called upon His Name." (Acts 22:16, Wuest's Expanded NT).

*No Scripture is to be interpretated in isololation from the totality of Scripture. Practically speaking, a singular and obscure verse is to be subservient to to multiple and clear verses, and not vice versa.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
I have a son that was born-again when he was young ( where he was baptized into Christ ) - and here is the absolute truth part - He is still my son no matter what he did or didn't do. He is my son "by birth".

He cannot "un-born " himself from being my son no matter how messed up in his mind and thinking he gets.
what if he stops having faith in you, or that you were his true father? Is he still your son?
 
B

BeyondET

Guest
Jesus blessed the children and did not teach that they should be baptized.

Water baptism is of no merit in the salvation of the soul. Holy Spirit baptism is the regenerating power of salvation. While baptizing babies may feel good it does nothing for their eternal souls.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
are there any verses that say babies are not to be baptized ? Surely Jesus did not teach that babies should not be baptized or did He?