The Rapture

KJV1611 · Jul 20, 2017

The two trumpets in Numbers is a foreshadow of the written word, the last trumpet is the new testament. It's the same trumpet Joshua marched 13 times around Jericho with and then the walls fell.

KJV1611 · Jul 20, 2017

PlainWord said:

The rebellion was the Jewish rebellion against the Romans. Notice Titus must be revealed prior to the Day of the Lord. The problem you are having (I think) is "the coming of the Lord Jesus Christ and our (their) gathering to Him." So, did this happen after Passover of 70 AD?

First off the word, "coming" would be better translated as "presence." The word Paul uses is parousia 3952 which is the same word the disciples used in Mat 24 when they inquired as to when His presence would return. The glorified Christ in Heaven is a bright light that cannot be looked upon by mortals, just as was the case with His Father. However, the presence of God appearing to man was usually in the form of a dark cloud under His feet. At night it was usually a pillar of fire.

Since the Garden, God never appeared directly and visibly again. The same now must be assumed for Christ appearing from heaven on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. Pay close attention to this. It is an appearance in the sky above. The same description found in Mt 24 is found in Mt 26 when He prophesies to the religious leaders.[SUP] 64 [/SUP]Jesus said to him, “It is as you said. Nevertheless, I say to you, hereafter you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Power, and coming on the clouds of heaven.” Jesus is telling those about to put Him to death that they will see Him again, in heaven with Power and coming for vengeance in the skies above.

Secondly, the gathering to Him, what does that mean? Here again, another incomplete translation. The actual Greek text says, "and of us gathering together to Him." The word here is episunagoge, 1997 which means a complete collection, specifically a Christian meeting (for worship) - assembling (gathering) together. The only place in the NT where this exact word is used is here in 2 Thes 2. However, the root word gather, episunago, 1996 is also used by Christ in Mt 24:31 and Mk 13:27. These are the only two places in the NT that use this word!! Other examples of "gather" such as the 'gathering of tares' or 'gather out of his kingdom' use sullego 4816, to collect - gather (together up). So we are talking about a Christian gathering.

What is it when two or more get together? For where two or three are gathered together in My name, I am there in the midst of them.”

So, the gathering of the elect is NOT a collection of the elect taken forcefully so don't confuse this with the rapture (harpazo of 1 Thes 4). Instead it is a Christian assembly of Saints with the angels which occurs during or in close proximity to the parousia (presence return) of Christ as powerful God. We have a collection of saints on Mount Zion who heard a divine voice and were told to leave Jerusalem. The voice of an angel said, "Let us remove hence." This is also in the historic record.

The parousia of Christ during the Jewish Roman War was recorded by Josephus as related to him by many eye witnesses. The gathering of the Jerusalem church as told in Rev 14 and 2 Thes 2, is also recorded by Josephus and many of the early church fathers.

I already went into great detail explaining how Titus fits.

Before the coming of the day of CHRIST... the day of the Lord and the day of Christ aren't the same. One is a day of darkness with no light in it, the other is our blessed hope.

iamsoandso · Jul 20, 2017

PlainWord said:

I believe they are both the same person. When you look at the interlinear Bible, and the actual Greek you see a couple of minor difference from the KJV or NKJV. These slight changes nails it for me.

2 Thes 2:4 ...he opposing and exalting himself over everything being called God, or object of worship, so as him in the temple of God as God to sit, showing himself that he is a God."

Caesars have all be known as a god and worshiped as gods. No other God can be elevated above them. This is why Herod freaked out when told that the "King of the Jews" was born.

Multiple historical accounts place Titus in the temple and being worshiped on the wing of the temple where images of his father, Caesar Vespasian, were on the standards being carried by Titus' troops onto the temple mount. The Roman troops were in focus in the Olivet as the Abomination of Desolation and Titus was their leader. The troops bowed down and worshiped Titus as God and made sacrifices to him. The Talmud (as objectionable as it is) states that Titus entered the Holy of Holies with a prostitute and committed a sin. Titus took his sword and split the veil and blood came out. This caused Titus to declare that he had killed the God of the Jews. The troops called Titus imperator or Emperor of Rome bestowing upon him the same title held by his father at the same time his father held it. Both Vespasian and Titus were called, "TITVS FLAVIVS CAESAR."

The fact that Titus destroyed the temple meant that he forever ended the Law making him, "the lawless one." Titus completely and utterly destroyed the city and sanctuary making him the "Prince of the people to come" in Dan 9. Titus ended the Jewish nation after 2,000 years in existence as God's chosen people removing them from the covenant Land for another 2,000 years. No figure in the Bible (although he is unnamed) had inflected more harm or longer lasting damage upon Israel than Titus. There isn't even a close second. Titus was from the 4th beast of Daniel 7, "dreadful and terrible, exceedingly strong. It had huge iron teeth." He carried the remaining Jews away to Rome to be humiliated in a parade. An arch dedicated to Titus with an image of the temple burning stands next to the Roman Colosseum today, the site of many Jewish and Christian murders.

If Titus was not the Man of Sin (AKA antiChrist) then a future one who did everything Titus did would need to come and a new temple would need to be built. Why look past a perfect historical match?

But the thing about Caesar,Nero,Titus ect. don't work out if we examine both scripture and historical(Josephus) writings they actually prove without a shadow of a doubt that the Jews in the siege did not have the mark and then in reverse prove that if they were the beast the apostles were endorsing taking the mark to the Christians.

KJV1611 · Jul 20, 2017

Have you guys ever read the book of Joel? It's all about the day of the Lord, it's the time when the new wine is cut off from their mouths. The new wine came at Pentecost... these guys were cut off from it.

Joel 1:5-7 KJV
Awake, ye drunkards, and weep; and howl, all ye drinkers of wine, because of the new wine; for it is cut off from your mouth.

[6] For a nation is come up upon my land, strong, and without number, whose teeth are the teeth of a lion, and he hath the cheek teeth of a great lion.

[7] He hath laid my vine waste, and barked my fig tree: he hath made it clean bare, and cast it away; the branches thereof are made white.

The lion of the tribe of Judah came against them, he laid the vine waste and barked the fig tree and CAST IT AWAY. This is the first coming of the Lord, this is the day of the Lord not the day of Christ.

iamsoandso · Jul 20, 2017

KJV1611 said:

I'm not saying that certain things were not fulfilled as Jesus stated in Matt.,Luke,Mark ect. I'm just pointing out that if you consider the part about the man of sin/Antichrist(dis.comb.) that is was not fulfilled. So no stones left unturned,yep,yep,yep,,,,but man of sin nope,nope,nope...

KJV1611 · Jul 20, 2017

iamsoandso said:

I agree that all is not fufilled in all prophecy but the day of the Lord has been fulfilled. The day of Christ - the rapture, the return of Christ and the milennial reign are still future.

iamsoandso · Jul 20, 2017

KJV1611 said:

The thing about it is there’s two camps one sees that everything is fulfilled 100% and the other argues that it's not 100%. Then as if one day dis-proven it would mean that one would have to defect as if there were only the two camps when in fact it's possible neither of the two are completely correct and there were an third camp to consider,lol no need to turn coats so to speak unless one's willing to explore the third.

KJV1611 · Jul 20, 2017

iamsoandso said:

And then there's always the truth lol. The truth is found when the bible does the talking.

KJV1611 · Jul 20, 2017

I don't know why the day of the Lord and the day of Christ are considered the same day, they are like polar opposites of one another, one is death and destruction and the other is hope and something to look forward to.

Jackson123 · Jul 21, 2017

KJV1611 said:

who is our Lord?
Our Lord is Christ

Lord= Christ

The day of the Lord = the day of Christ

heartofdavid · Jul 21, 2017

J7 said:

Hard to believe you have your nose right in vs 29&30,but vs 31 sails over your head.

They are gathered FROM HEAVEN.
What will it take for you to simply pull off the anti pre trib glasses and just read what is there?
I also showed you rev 14,and we both know your doctrine can not co exist with a gathering during the GT.

Your deal is impossible.

heartofdavid · Jul 21, 2017

KJV1611 said:

Amen,it is that dynamic the pretrib rapture is based on.

Post trib rapture is poorly thought out.

J7 · Jul 21, 2017

heartofdavid said:

?

The four winds are the 4 points of the compass. They are gathered from the earth! Where are you gathering from, deep space 9?

Ends of heaven is I believe, as KJV has suggested, a temporal reference to the Kingdom of Heaven: from one end, AD33, to the other end, e.g. 2033.

Jackson123 · Jul 21, 2017

heartofdavid said:

To interprate the Bible, one must look from other verse.

2 thesalonians 2 Said both rapture and second coming not happen before tribulation

KJV1611 · Jul 21, 2017

Jackson123 said:

Sure they are all the same person, but they are not the same office or function.

Hosea 2:16-17 KJV
And it shall be at that day, saith the Lord , that thou shalt call me Ishi; and shalt call me no more Baali. [17] For I will take away the names of Baalim out of her mouth, and they shall no more be remembered by their name.

God took the name Baali (meaning Lord) out of their mouth and had them call him Ishi (meaning husband). We aren't the bride of Baali, we're the bride of Christ - Ishi - husband.

The day of the Lord is a day of reckoning with his SERVANTS. The day of Christ is when the husband takes his wife out of the word.

KJV1611 · Jul 21, 2017

heartofdavid said:

Which heaven are they gathered from? You're assuming it's the heaven where the Father lives, but it's not.... it's the earthly heaven.

KJV1611 · Jul 21, 2017

heartofdavid said:

Considering that the great tribulation is only mentioned in reference to the day of the Lord and the 1st coming of Christ, then post trib is the only possible timing.

KJV1611 · Jul 21, 2017

Jackson123 said:

It doesn't say that, it says the rapture and second coming will not happen until a falling away happens and the man of sin is revealed. NOWHERE in the bible will you find "The Antichrist" fitting the description of the man of sin. If you know of a place where the bible says "The Antichrist" exalts himself above all that is called God and sits in the hearts of God's people showing himself to be God, let me know lol.

Jackson123 · Jul 21, 2017

KJV1611 said:

Sure they are all the same person, but they are not the same office or function.

Hosea 2:16-17 KJV
And it shall be at that day, saith the Lord , that thou shalt call me Ishi; and shalt call me no more Baali. [17] For I will take away the names of Baalim out of her mouth, and they shall no more be remembered by their name.

God took the name Baali (meaning Lord) out of their mouth and had them call him Ishi (meaning husband). We aren't the bride of Baali, we're the bride of Christ - Ishi - husband.

The day of the Lord is a day of reckoning with his SERVANTS. The day of Christ is when the husband takes his wife out of the word.

Is reckoning mean judgement?

I never heard a verse that say the day of Christ

J7 · Jul 21, 2017

1 Corinthians 1:8 Who shall also confirm you unto the end, that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.

The Rapture

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