Not By Works

[garee]

The Law of God (10 commandments) is the very foundation of both the Old and the New Covenants because it reveals to us the character of God and gives us the knowledge of what sin is if we break any of God's Laws (Ex 20:1-17; 1John 3:4; Rom 3:20). The purpose of God's Law is to show us that we are all guilty before God as sinners in need of a Saviour to prepare us to meet Jesus so that he can save us from our sins so that we can follow Him in newness of life (Gal 3:24).

Yes and the ceremonial law (the Sabbath or Rest a non time sensitive word) can do nothing to make a person complete It was used as a parable to preach the gospel of Christ in respect to the suffering of Christ beforehand

Which was a parable for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.Heb 9:9

Has the reformation come?

Just as in the New Covenant the Law of God shows the standard of God's righteousness it does not provide a way of bringing us back to God whenever we should sin. This was the reason for the laws of Moses in the Old Covenant. When any person sinned (broke any of God's 10 commandments) the laws of Moses (Levitical animal, meat, drink offerings, ceremonial, ecclesiastical, New Moons, holy days) provided a means of obtaining forgiveness of sin.

Shadows do not provide a way to obtain forgiveness they point to the one who alone can. It is how the gospel was preached in advance using the temporal things of this world to preach the eternal gospel

Laying a hand on the head of Goat does not take away sin, a flee or two yes, sin no.

[TABLE]
[TR]
[TD]God’s Law
10 Commandments
The Decalogue
(Ex 20:1-17)
[/TD]
[TD]Book and laws of Moses
Torah, “Pentateuch”
The ceremonial/civil laws and ordinances
(Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy).
[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

Attributing the law of God to Moses is to blaspheme the holy name we are called by. You cannot divide the law of God from the law of God and call that rightfully dividing . That kind of idea subtracts the first comandment a moral one, not one used in cerimonies
[TABLE]
[TR]
[TD]God’s Law
10 Commandments
The Decalogue
(Ex 20:1-17)
[/TD]
[TD]God’s Law
Torah, “Pentateuch”
The ceremonial/civil laws and ordinances
(Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy).
[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

 

[Grace777x70]

You have answered well Bruce.

Thank you. I know that initially I too couldn't see the truth of the difference between the keeping of the 10 commandments and the life of Christ Himself manifesting in us. Things of this nature have to be spiritually discerned and only comes by the Holy Spirit revealing Christ to us.

There is so much more to Christ being one spirit with us that I believe we have barely scratched the surface of knowing Him and what He has already done for us. That's the way I feel within myself because the more I "see" of Him - the more I "see" I don't know.

Whenever we read Moses through the lens of "things we must do" which is what the Old Covenant was all based on - there will remain a veil over our eyes to see the work of Christ and what is living the true Christian life - which is us joined as one spirit with the Lord in the new creation and we live by His life now.

I firmly believe when we "awake to righteousness" - we will sin not - when we sober up to be our true selves in Christ - this will release His life in and through us which will manifest our loving Father's and Lord's love and grace for those we encounter in life.

 

[FranC]

I do see OSAS in there, AS LONG AS we continue in trust, seeing that our hearts do not become hardened in mistrust as with Israel in the desert.

WE AGREE !

IF we CONTINUE in trusting in Jesus, we will be saved.
Everything is the heart...
God sees the heart.
That's why speaking about sinning in not on my agenda.
We sin everyday --- but nuff of that.

Just STAY IN CHRIST
and do what He tells you.
or
Don't do what He tells you !

 

[FranC]

no

like on what they do for Him

not what He did for all

Are you saying that persons that are doing for God and know God might not be saved?

 

[FranC]

no

like on what they do for Him

not what He did for all

IOW

What I'm thinking is:

Someone could not know the salvation message, but still love God and follow Jesus and they do what Jesus taught.

Are you saying these people cannot be saved?

 

[NoNameMcgee]

Are you saying that persons that are doing for God and know God might not be saved?

nope

im saying people who think what they DO saves them
mat.7-22
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?


are decieved and place their faith in themselfs over Jesus

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

WE AGREE !

IF we CONTINUE in trusting in Jesus, we will be saved.
Everything is the heart...
God sees the heart.
That's why speaking about sinning in not on my agenda.
We sin everyday --- but nuff of that.

Just STAY IN CHRIST
and do what He tells you.
or
Don't do what He tells you !

Continuing in trust is harder than it sounds at first, isn't it? There is a constant pull from the world and my own self to choose the worlds way of storing treasure on earth rather than trusting Him to provide enough again tomorrow. It has been the biggest challenge of my trust.

 

[garee]

1. One either agrees with him or one doesn't.
   I like to read the ENTIRE N.T. and not do it by verses.
   
   I don't see hyper-grace in there and I don't see OSAS in there.
   
   Since we're talking I'll also say that too many persons use the internet today instead of going to good bible believing churches.
   
   Off the soap-box!!

What kind of unmerited favor do you see in there if not hyper, a depressed grace, one that could never provide enough grace rather than in OSAS?

Sound like those in the Hebrews 6 boat. Never enough… over and over exposing Christ to public shame.

 

[Limey410v2]

No, lol.

I actually think the slide down into unbelief is a drawn out process. And that even after you're in it God may still try to bring you back. But after all that, and you still want to not believe, you're done. There's no way back. It won't happen over night.

In your scenario God is a liar and a failure.

 

[NoNameMcgee]

IOW

What I'm thinking is:

Someone could not know the salvation message, but still love God and follow Jesus and they do what Jesus taught.

Are you saying these people cannot be saved?

ok first ill place why i believe

Romans 2:15

“Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another


even without the Word

HE provides ways of knowing His will

BUT


Matthew 7:7-8

7 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:

8 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.


i think these people who have no access to the Word
if they seek the truth

and follow righteousness

God will give them more and more

even if its in signs or visions or dreams

 

[FranC]

No problem. I have said this many times before but I will once more for the viewers of the thread.

People often say to those that speak of the grace of God and that they have died to the law and been released from the law and are not under the law of Moses anymore that they believe they are without "laws" now.


We do have laws in the New Covenant. They are exciting laws that bring life and wholeness to us all - because these are all Christ Himself in us.

There is no greater revelation than to know Him and the Father and to plumb the depths of their love and grace towards us which Paul says in Eph. 2:7 - the Father will be doing for all the ages to come to us.

Ephesians 2:7 (NASB)
[SUP]7 [/SUP]so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.

Jesus fulfilled the law. The law was a mere shadow of the real thing which was Jesus.

Read the law to see Jesus in it and to know that Jesus did that for us and His life in us now leads us in all things. Those who are led by the Spirit of God are the sons of God.

We now live by:

1) The law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus. ( Romans 8:2 )

2) The law of love ( Romans 13:10 James 2:8 )

3) The law of faith ( Romans 3:27 and the law of Moses is NOT of faith - Gal. 3:12 )

4) The law of liberty ( James 1:25 )

5) The law of Christ - which is Christ Himself in us. ( Gal. 6:2 )

These are what will stop us from murdering people.

We can trust the Holy Spirit in us to lead us in all affairs of life. We don't go back to the law of Moses that were a shadow of the real thing which is Christ in us.. Jesus is more then enough.

Yes...we glory in the laws that we have in the New Covenant because they are all Christ Himself living in and through us. ( Gal.2:20 and Col. 3:3 )

Get this wrong and we create a religion which really nullifies the grace of God from operating in our lives like it was meant to.

Galatians 5:22-23 (NASB)

[SUP]22 [/SUP] But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,

[SUP]23 [/SUP] gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law.

Somebody get a calendar and red pen !!

I agree with the above.

But it's just a different way of saying what I Always say, which is this...:

God still DEMANDS that we keep the commandments. HE has not changed. There is only ONE God.

What HAS CHANGED is HOW we keep the commandments, or Law.

The New Covenant is a new way of keeping the Law.
With Love for Jesus and for our fellow man.
And the scriptures you list.

The problem I have with some posts is that they sound as if the person (you or Others) are saying that we are free and so do not have to keep the Law.

Why do I say this?
Because you and Others refuse to state that it is necessary to keep the Laws and to follow the teachings of Jesus.

This has to be CLEAR to someone who is a new Christian or who does not understanding the difference between being under the Law and following the Law - which was NOT abolished.

 

[Limey410v2]

Hi Grace777,

You are a funny one in deed. Seems like every time I see you, your adding to your list of name calling. So far we have Judaizing spirits, secret codes and conspiracy theories, mind manipulation, spiritual witchcraft and the now the new one for today, spirit of the anti-christ.. You are not upset with me my friend I am just sharing the Word of God. If you think I am wrong in anything I have posted then show me from God's Word? If you can't show me then why don't you believe God? There is no point in telling you that you just pulled things off the website out of context because your eyes seem to be wide shut. When you want to talk about God's Word in a sharing way just let me know.

God bless you all.

Do you believe that those who disagree with you read a different word of God? The questions are not with the Word of God, the questions are with you and what you believe they are speaking.

 

[FranC]

ok first ill place why i believe

Romans 2:15

“Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another


even without the Word

we have ways of knowing our Fathers will

BUT


Matthew 7:7-8

7 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:

8 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.


i think these people who have no access to the Word
if they seek the truth

and follow righteousness

God will give them more and more

even if its in signs or visions or dreams

Yes. I also would say that one could be saved and not know the salvation message.
As in Romans 1:19-20.

It may not even be a vision or dream, God speaks to the heart of man.
But that is possible too.

 

[FranC]

Continuing in trust is harder than it sounds at first, isn't it? There is a constant pull from the world and my own self to choose the worlds way of storing treasure on earth rather than trusting Him to provide enough again tomorrow. It has been the biggest challenge of my trust.

It depends what you're trusting God for.
It depends on how long you've been a Christian.

I've had difficulties in life and as I look back on them, I see that God is using them TODAY for a good reason.
If you're talking about financial matters, well, I think we should go to work, work unto the Lord, do the best we can and provide for our familes. I like nice things, I don't believe this is a sin --- as long as those nice things don't become my god, or I love them more than people. We should store up some stuff here the way things are going...

Trust takes time. And sometimes we see sin where there isn't any.

 

[NoNameMcgee]

Yes. I also would say that one could be saved and not know the salvation message.
As in Romans 1:19-20.

It may not even be a vision or dream, God speaks to the heart of man.
But that is possible too.

well...

i said know our Fathers will


...im not 100% certain that leads to salvation ever


if they continue to seek and recieve Gods gifts i cannot say what would happen WITHOUT signs and dreams and visions based on


John 14:6

6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.


but if we are judged according to knowledge

maybe youre right

 

[FranC]

nope

im saying people who think what they DO saves them
mat.7-22
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?


are decieved and place their faith in themselfs over Jesus

Yes. Well, there's this thin red line.
Which is what is being discussed here.

 

[NoNameMcgee]

Yes. Well, there's this thin red line.
Which is what is being discussed here.

lol ohhhhh yes



i argued for a bit when i started cc

i thought people were trying to justify sin

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

Somebody get a calendar and red pen !!

I agree with the above.

But it's just a different way of saying what I Always say, which is this...:

God still DEMANDS that we keep the commandments. HE has not changed. There is only ONE God.

What HAS CHANGED is HOW we keep the commandments, or Law.

The New Covenant is a new way of keeping the Law.
With Love for Jesus and for our fellow man.
And the scriptures you list.

The problem I have with some posts is that they sound as if the person (you or Others) are saying that we are free and so do not have to keep the Law.

Why do I say this?
Because you and Others refuse to state that it is necessary to keep the Laws and to follow the teachings of Jesus.

This has to be CLEAR to someone who is a new Christian or who does not understanding the difference between being under the Law and following the Law - which was NOT abolished.

We must be holy because He is holy. The dispute comes over how this happens. Does He cause me to keep the law outwardly? No. He causes me to keep it inwardly, in spirit, in my heart, and then the outside is just clean as well. If I don't murder in my heart and in spirit, I will not murder outwardly. And if I trust/rest/abide, I am keeping my sabbath rest in Him. There is no law that can condemn a man who keeps the law in spirit. The spirit of the law is life and the letter is death.

 

[royalscot]

nope

im saying people who think what they DO saves them
mat.7-22
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?


are decieved and place their faith in themselfs over Jesus

deceived imply s, there has to be a deceiver or deceivers , without context, what voice spoke to a modern day( 2017 ) if it is looking at being deceived. yet cannot give context to scripture, the the deceiver can only point at untruth.

given the bible went to print after , most of the apostles of jesus were dead.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

lol ohhhhh yes



i argued for a bit when i started cc

i thought people were trying to justify sin

It happens to all of us. There's a tremendous pull to go back to the letter rather than to abide! Tremendous! I go back and forth sometimes when reading, and especially when reading the OT. To walk in the spirit in some consistency is like...having to relearn to speak after a stroke almost...