The Trinity Discussion

jaybird88 · Jul 25, 2017

Mark 12 29-33
29Jesus answered, “The most important is, ‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one. 30And you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.’ 31The second is this: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no other commandment greater than these.” 32And the scribe said to him, “You are right, Teacher. You have truly said that he is one, and there is no other besides him. 33And to love him with all the heart and with all the understanding and with all the strength, and to love one’s neighbor as oneself, is much more than all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices.”

is "He" plural? how many persons are in "He"?

Magenta · Jul 25, 2017

jaybird88 said:

You are attempting to limit God to what you can conceive with your finite mind. Scripture explicitly states that the Word is God and took on flesh to walk this world. Why can you not accept that?

jaybird88 · Jul 25, 2017

Magenta said:

im just trying to understand what the scripture teaches. is this an error in the Mark passage?

Nehemiah6 · Jul 25, 2017

jaybird88 said:

Well the Hebrew word for "God" is Elohim, and that is a UNI-PLURAL WORD indicating that there are three Divine Persons within the Godhead. Whenever a Hebrew word ends with "..im" it indicates plurality [e.g. cherub (singular) and cherubim (plural)]. So even if "He" for God appears to be singular, it refers to the triune Godhead.

This is further confirmed in the following Scriptures:

And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: (Gen 1:26)

And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever: (Gen 3:22)

jaybird88 · Jul 25, 2017

Nehemiah6 said:

so when divine scripture says He / singular, its not singular? makes no sense but ok.

trofimus · Jul 25, 2017

jaybird88 said:

We refer to Him as He very frequently.

1. Because it is a natural way of speaking
"He created universe, He saved me etc".

2. Because He is triune. If they were three Gods,it would be more proper to talk about Gods as "they". Because He is one with three persons, both can be right, regarding context. He, referring to God, them, referring to persons.

3. Do not expect any Jewish person to have insight into Triunity in gospels.

bluto · Jul 25, 2017

Muzungu256 said:

A big resounding no, period.

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

jaybird88 · Jul 25, 2017

trofimus said:

frequenty, natural way of speaking, etc will not change the meaning of the word.

are you sure, the teaching comes from Jesus Himself. are you saying only non Jews can explain Jesus who was a Jew?

trofimus · Jul 25, 2017

jaybird88 said:

Please, read my post again

jaybird88 · Jul 25, 2017

Muzungu256 said:

why would you think that, Jesus doesnt teach it, the 12 dont teach it, St Paul does not teach it. man may teach this but that is nothing more than an opinion, far from divine scripture.

williamjordan · Jul 25, 2017

MarkHasFaith said:

I continue to beat this drum.

If all one needs to do is believe that Jesus is, in some round-a-bout sense, the “Son of God” with disregard of the remainder of things the NT has to say about Him then the authors of the NT wasted their time combating many myths/untruths about Jesus. What would have been the point for Paul, or any other to write entire letters which entail so much detail about the person and being of Jesus Christ, if all that one needs to believe is that He is the “Son of God”?

One must believe that Jesus is the Son of God to the very extent and in the same light that the Apostles also believed and whom they discuss in so much detail throughout the NT, or else your view of Jesus as the “Son of God” is distorted. You cannot say that you know Christ if you do not truly know Him in the way that Scripture depicts Him. How can one love someone they do not know?

It's interesting that in the salutation of 2 Peter, the author addresses “those who have received a faith of the same kind as ours,” and further goes on to address Jesus as “God and Savior.” It seems clear that he is addressing a body of believers that are like-minded in faith, and share together the belief of the divinity of Jesus.

“Simon Peter, a bond-servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, to those who have received a faith of the same kind as ours, by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ” (2 Peter 1.1)

Of course, while the divinity of Jesus is closely related to Trinitarianism, in and of itself should not be confused for it. Some may believe in the divinity of Jesus, but may have a Modalistic view of God. Or some may be Binitarian. So before we can accurately address your question, it would help to know what side of the fence you are on. Are you Binitarian? Modalist? Socinian? Arian? Trinitarian?

williamjordan · Jul 25, 2017

The argument posed that the Jews did not have insight on the Trinity is quite an odd objection. The Jews didn't expect the virgin birth; or the death, burial, and resurrection either.

The divinity of Jesus had not been revealed til Christ began making claims that seemed (to the Jews) questionable, which caused the reactions we see in John 5.18, 19.7.

How many times throughout the NT does Jesus exegete the OT, shedding new light on what was once held as truth? Jesus challenged the Jews, and opened minds to the Scripture which served as a testimony of Himself. This is why we as Christians see Jesus all over the OT. We see Him mentioned all over OT prophecy... and yet the Jew does not.

williamjordan · Jul 25, 2017

jaybird88 said:

This will be quite long.

It's interesting that you mention Jesus' use of the Shema here.

There are two things that I'd like to mention.

FIRST
It is the orthodox understanding that in the incarnation Jesus was “for a little while made lower than the angels” (Hebrews 2.7), taking “the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men” (Philippians 2.7), being “born of a woman, born under the law” (Galatians 4.4). So the passage in Mark is easily understood in this light.

SECOND
Referring to a post I made almost a year ago:

In 1 Corinthians 8-10 Paul has set up monotheism as this relational, loving commitment to the one God of Israel over against idolatry. According to Paul, the person who “loves God” (1 Cor 8.3) knows that “there is no God but one” (1 Cor 8.4). These statements made by Paul clearly encapsulate the monotheistic essence of Judaism, the Shema (“Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one. You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your might,” Deuteronomy 6.4-5). The allusions made to idolatry, to loving God, and believing that God is one disposes of any uncertainty that Paul is drawing here on the Shema.

Paul picks up on this very point in v. 6, “to us there is but one God, the Father from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist.” But it is here at v. 6 that Unitarians argue for some kind of ontological distinction between the “one God” (v. 6a), and the “one Lord” (v. 6b), but the nature of that distinction is of some debate between sectarian groups.

On one end of the spectrum, the Witnesses argue that though pagans had “many gods and many lords” (v. 5), lords were considered secondary deities in relationship to the gods, and so Paul is borrowing from that idea in his comparison of Christ the “one Lord,” and the Father who is the “one God.” On the other, Socinians argue that v. 5 distinguishes “gods” as heavenly figures from “lords,” who are their earthly representatives, and that v. 6 likewise distinguishes between the Father as God in contrast to Christ, who is His representative Lord.

It seems particularly odd that the Witnesses would even attempt to argue that “lords” are deities second to the “gods,” particularly in light of their position of Christ as “a god.” Likewise, it also seems awkward that the Socinian would argue for a distinction of “gods” as heavenly figures, and “lords” as their earthly representatives in light of the Unitarian proposition that Jesus did not become “Lord” until his exaltation to the right hand of the Father in heaven.

Further, in v. 5 Paul refers to the “gods” as being both in heaven and on earth (“For although there may be so-called *gods in heaven or on earth*”), which ultimately undermines the Socinian interpretation by showing that Paul was not distinguishing between “gods” in heaven, and “lords” on earth.

However, neither of these arguments really seem to consider, and for obvious reasons, that κύριος (“Lord”) is the divine title emphasized in the Shema, “The Lord our God, the Lord is one.” And in light of the overall context, Paul gives us the Christian self-understanding of how the monotheism of the Jewish Scriptures is to be interpreted in light of the incarnation of Jesus the Messiah, the “one Lord.”

Paul writes in vv. 5-6,

‘Therefore, as to the eating of food offered to idols, we know that “an idol has no real existence,” and that “there is no God but one.” For although there may be so-called gods in heaven or on earth—as indeed there are many “gods” and many “lords”— yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist.’

Notice the contrast Paul makes: heathen idolaters have “many ‘gods’ and many ‘lords’— yet for us there is one God… one Lord.” In such a context where the Shema is central (idolatry, loving God, God is one), it would be self-defeating for Paul to do anything but embrace together the “one God” and “one Lord” in union, otherwise he would be just as guilty of idolatry as the heathen who had a multiplicity of sovereigns.

Paul’s play on words in v. 6 makes the union of this “one God” and “one Lord” even more apparent. In drawing upon the monotheistic concept that God alone created the universe (Isaiah 44.24, 4 Ezra 3.4), Paul attributes to Christ a role in creation which Jews would commonly attribute to God (Heb 2.10, Rom 11.36). For Paul to include the “one Lord, Jesus Christ” in the divine work of creation places Him squarely in a unique union with the “one God, the Father.” Bauckham explains,

“that God is not only the agent or efficient cause of creation ('from him are all things') and the final cause or goal of all things ('to him are all things'), but also the instrumental cause ('through him are all things') well expresses the typical Jewish monotheistic concern that God used no one else to carry out his work of creation. By Paul's reformulation in 1 Corinthians 8:6, he includes Christ in this exclusively divine work of creation by giving to him the role of instrumental cause.” (God Crucified: Monotheism & Christology, 38-39)

Throughout the argument posed against idolatry in 1 Corinthians 8-10, Paul does not go on to speak about, as one would perhaps expect, the relationship between the Corinthians, and the “one God the Father” over against idolatry. Rather, notice that the argument is about the relationship between the Corinthians, and the “one Lord” Jesus over against idolatry (10.19-22),

“You cannot drink the cup of the Lord and the cup of demons. You cannot partake of the table of the Lord and the table of demons. Shall we provoke the Lord to jealousy? Are we stronger than He?” (1 Corinthians 10.21-22 c.f. Deuteronomy 32.21, Malachi 1.7-12)

The “Lord” that is spoken of here is most naturally taken to refer to Jesus for various reasons:

Up to this point in Paul’s letter it is only Jesus that is referred to as Lord (i.e., “one Lord,” “the Lord of glory,” et al). Piggy-backing this point is that it seems Paul has borrowed the "Lord of glory" epithet from the apocryphal Book of Enoch, where the expression is used only of YHWH (22.14; 25.3; 27.3-4; 63.2; 75.3)
Paul’s utilization of κύριος (“Lord”) for Jesus where he alludes to OT texts involving the Divine Name (1 Cor 1.2 [c.f. Joel 2.32]; 1 Cor 2.16 [c.f. Isaiah 40.13]; 1 Cor 6.11 [c.f. Isaiah 45.25], et al)
Paul uses this language of “the cup of the Lord” later in his letter to the Corinthians where it is Jesus who is the referent (1 Corinthians 11.27-28 c.f. 1 Corinthians 10.16-17, 2 Corinthians 6.15-16)

For Paul to refer to Jesus’ involvement in Israel’s redemptive history makes it clear who the “Lord” is in this passage. According to Paul, Christ is “the rock” (1 Cor 10.4) that accompanied the Israelites in the wilderness, and goes so far to even warn the Corinthians, “We should not test Christ, as some of them did—and were killed by snakes.” There seems to be a connection between testing Christ (1 Cor 10.9), and provoking the Lord (1 Cor 10.22). Additionally, the question raised in 10.22 (“Shall we provoke the Lord to jealousy?”) is an allusion to the Song of Moses (Deuteronomy 32.21, “They have provoked me to jealousy with what is no god”), the very place Paul alludes to when he speaks of Christ as “the rock” (c.f. Deut 32.4, 15, 18, 31).

jaybird88 · Jul 25, 2017

williamjordan said:

The argument posed that the Jews did not have insight on the Trinity is quite an odd objection. The Jews didn't expect the virgin birth; or the death, burial, and resurrection either.

The divinity of Jesus had not been revealed til Christ began making claims that seemed (to the Jews) questionable, which caused the reactions we see in John 5.18, 19.7.

How many times throughout the NT does Jesus exegete the OT, shedding new light on what was once held as truth? Jesus challenged the Jews, and opened minds to the Scripture which served as a testimony of Himself. This is why we as Christians see Jesus all over the OT. We see Him mentioned all over OT prophecy... and yet the Jew does not.

the Essenes of Qumran had a lot of theology writing on the Christ. they also wrote on the virgin birth.

williamjordan · Jul 25, 2017

williamjordan said:

I would also like to mention that there were those who had not heard of the Holy Spirit as well (Acts 19.2). This only shows how radical and foreign the NT teachings were to the Jews. They knew nothing of the Trinity, just as they knew nothing of the Holy Spirit; death, burial, resurrection; virgin birth. With the coming of Jesus were things being revealed.

stillness · Jul 25, 2017

1 John 5:7 "For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one."
"The name of the Father and of the Son And of the Holy Ghost," Ghost
Lord Jesus Christ
The Holy Ghost is given to the Bride of Christ, in marriage our heart becomes One. "He that is joined to the Lord is one Spirit." Those who overcome the world By His Spirit. "If we suffer with Him we shall rule with Him."
I don't use the word trinity and agree that we are not saved by our understanding but Faith that works by Love."

jaybird88 · Jul 25, 2017

stillness said:

wise statement

Magenta · Jul 25, 2017

williamjordan said:

The Spirit of God is mentioned quite a few times in the Tanakh. Some examples:

Genesis 1:2
And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

Genesis 41:38
And Pharaoh said unto his servants, Can we find such a one as this is, a man in whom the Spirit of God is?

Exodus 31:3
And I have filled him with the spirit of God, in wisdom, and in understanding, and in knowledge, and in all manner of workmanship,

Exodus 35:31
And he hath filled him with the spirit of God, in wisdom, in understanding, and in knowledge, and in all manner of workmanship;

Numbers 24:2
And Balaam lifted up his eyes, and he saw Israel abiding in his tents according to their tribes; and the spirit of God came upon him.

Numbers 27:16
Let the Lord, the God of the spirits of all flesh, set a man over the congregation,

1 Samuel 10:10
And when they came thither to the hill, behold, a company of prophets met him; and the Spirit of God came upon him, and he prophesied among them.

1 Samuel 11:6
And the Spirit of God came upon Saul when he heard those tidings, and his anger was kindled greatly.

1 Samuel 19:20
And Saul sent messengers to take David: and when they saw the company of the prophets prophesying, and Samuel standing as appointed over them, the Spirit ofGod was upon the messengers of Saul, and they also prophesied.

1 Samuel 19:23
And he went thither to Naioth in Ramah: and the Spirit of God was upon him also, and he went on, and prophesied, until he came to Naioth in Ramah.

2 Chronicles 15:1
And the Spirit of God came upon Azariah the son of Oded:

2 Chronicles 24:20
And the Spirit of God came upon Zechariah the son of Jehoiada the priest, which stood above the people, and said unto them, Thus saith God, Why transgress ye the commandments of the Lord, that ye cannot prosper? because ye have forsaken the Lord, he hath also forsaken you.

Job 27:3
All the while my breath is in me, and the spirit of God is in my nostrils;

Job 33:4
The spirit of God hath made me, and the breath of the Almighty hath given me life.

Psalm 143:10
Teach me to do thy will; for thou art my God: thy spiritis good; lead me into the land of uprightness.

Isaiah 61:1
The Spirit of the Lord God is upon me; because the Lord hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound;

Ezekiel 8:3
And he put forth the form of an hand, and took me by a lock of mine head; and the spirit lifted me up between the earth and the heaven, and brought me in the visions of God to Jerusalem, to the door of the inner gate that looketh toward the north; where was the seat of the image of jealousy, which provoketh to jealousy.

Ezekiel 11:24
Afterwards the spirit took me up, and brought me in a vision by the Spirit of God into Chaldea, to them of the captivity. So the vision that I had seen went up from me.

Ezekiel 39:29
Neither will I hide my face any more from them: for I have poured out my spirit upon the house of Israel, saith the Lord God.

There are others but I shall stop there

MattforJesus · Jul 25, 2017

Isa 44:8 Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any.

Isa 43:10 Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.
Isa 43:11 I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.

1Co 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

Eph 4:6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
Isa 9:7 Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.

Joh 14:7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.
Joh 14:8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
Joh 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?
Joh 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

Joh 16:23 And in that day ye shall ask me nothing. Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in my name, he will give it you.
Joh 16:24 Hitherto have ye asked nothing in my name: ask, and ye shall receive, that your joy may be full.

Joh 14:13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.
Joh 14:14 If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.

No God beside God,no God formed before Him,and no God formed after Him,and only the Father is attributed to being God.

The Son shall be called the everlasting Father,if you have seen Jesus you have seen the Father.

Jesus is God manifest in flesh,and the man Christ Jesus said do not ask Him anything,but only ask the Father,but in another passage of scripture Jesus is speaking according to His deity,ask Me,and I will do it.

There is but one God the Father,and one visible manifestation of the Father,the Lord Jesus Christ.

Isa 52:5 Now therefore, what have I here, saith the LORD, that my people is taken away for nought? they that rule over them make them to howl, saith the LORD; and my name continually every day is blasphemed.
Isa 52:6 Therefore my people shall know my name: therefore they shall know in that day that I am he that doth speak: behold, it is I.

Joh 5:43 I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.

Joh 17:26 And I have declared unto them thy name, and will declare it: that the love wherewith thou hast loved me may be in them, and I in them.

The Father's name is Jesus.

Mat 1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

Heb 1:4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.

The Son inherited the name from the Father.

Joh 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

The Holy Ghost comes in the name of Jesus.

Jesus is the name of the Father,Son,and Holy Ghost.Luke said baptize in Jesus' name.In the book of Acts,Jews,Gentiles,and Samaritans were all baptized in the name of Jesus.All that we do in word and deed is to be done in Jesus' name,and there is no name whereby we are saved,but by the name Jesus.

Rev 4:2 And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.

Rev 22:3 And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him:
Rev 22:4 And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads.

Exo 15:6 Thy right hand, O LORD, is become glorious in power: thy right hand, O LORD, hath dashed in pieces the enemy.
Exo 15:12 Thou stretchedst out thy right hand, the earth swallowed them.

Psa 20:6 Now know I that the LORD saveth his anointed; he will hear him from his holy heaven with the saving strength of his right hand.

Psa 44:3 For they got not the land in possession by their own sword, neither did their own arm save them: but thy right hand, and thine arm, and the light of thy countenance, because thou hadst a favour unto them.

Psa 110:1 A Psalm of David. The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.

1Co 15:24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
1Co 15:25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
1Co 15:26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
1Co 15:27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
1Co 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

1Ti 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.

1Ti 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

2Co 5:18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;
2Co 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

1Jn 3:16 Hereby perceive we the love of God, because he laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren.

Act 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

Mat 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

There is only one throne in heaven,and one who sits on that throne,which is the throne of God and the Lamb,God in the glorified body of the man Christ Jesus.

God's right hand represents,salvation,wisdom,and power.

The man Christ Jesus is our Savior,for only a sinless man can approach a holy God on mankind's behalf,which no man is sinless,so God manifest Himself in the flesh,and reconciled the world unto Himself in the person of Jesus Christ,God and man in harmony.

God gave us His own human body to take away our sins,and sits on the throne in heaven in the glorified body of the man Christ Jesus.

Jesus said all power is given to Him in heaven,and in earth.

The Son must reign until His enemies are conquered,then when they are conquered,the Son shall submit to the Father,that God may be all in all.

Jesus at the right hand of God does not mean that Jesus sits on a throne next to the Father,but that God exalted the man Christ Jesus to exercise the throne of power until His enemies are conquered,being at the right hand,and when they are conquered,then the Son shall submit to the Father,stop exercising the throne of power,stop being at the right hand,that God may be all in all.

God is ruling through the man Christ Jesus for the sake of the saints.

The only person we will see in heaven is Jesus,and if you have seen Jesus you have seen the Father,and there is one throne in heaven,and one who sits on that throne,which is the throne of God and the Lamb,God in the glorified body of the man Christ Jesus.

Rom 4:16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,
Rom 4:17 (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.

God calls things that have not happened yet,as though they already happened,for if it is a plan of God to happen in the future,it is the same as if it happened in the beginning,for it will surely come to pass with no hindrances.

Rev 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Luk 11:50 That the blood of all the prophets, which was shed from the foundation of the world, may be required of this generation.

Heb 4:3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.

Future events considered being at the foundation of the world.

Gen 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
Gen 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

Rom 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

Old Testament-God created Adam in His image.

New Testament-Adam was in the figure of Jesus.

The image of God,is the image of Jesus,God manifest in flesh.

God had the plan to come in the future in flesh,and He created Adam in the image that He would appear in the future,God manifest in flesh,which the man Christ Jesus can be in the beginning,before He was born,for God calls things that have not happened yet,as though they already happened.

Joh 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
Joh 17:22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
Joh 17:23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.
Joh 17:24 Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.

This is Jesus speaking according to His humanity,that He had glory from the beginning,and would give that same glory to the saints,and they will behold His glory,and be where He is will go.

This is not glory as Him being God,for God does not give His glory to another,but glory as the man Christ Jesus,who could exist in the beginning before He was born,and the Father loved Him from the foundation of the world,and gave this glory to the saints,and prayed that the saints could behold His glory,and be where He is at,which means the saints obtaining a glorified body,and dwelling with Jesus in heaven,and behold Him sitting on the throne.

Gen 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
Gen 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

God had the plan to come in the future in flesh,before He laid down the foundation of the world,and created Adam in that image,and the Let us make man in our image is God,and the man Christ Jesus,who can exist in the beginning before He is born,because God calls things that have not happened yet,as though they already happened.

Which is why the saints can be predestined to salvation although it is a future event to whoever chooses that salvation,for God wants all people to repent,come to the truth,and be saved,and the Spirit and bride say,anybody can have that salvation,and Jesus lights all people that are born in to this world,and takes away the sins of the world.

They say there are 3 persons in one God,and then say God the Father,God the Son,and God the Holy Spirit,so which is it 3 persons in one God,or 3 Gods.

I do not believe there is a trinity,but there is one God,who is a Holy Spirit,which is why the Spirit moved in creation,and Jesus was conceived by the Spirit,and the Spirit dwells in the saints,and Father is a title for God,and the Son is the man Christ Jesus.

I believe there is not 3 persons in one God,but the 3 ways God has a relationship with the saints,designated by titles.

Father-Creator,and parental relationship to the saints.

Son-God's visible relationship to the saints,and the way He provided salvation.

Holy Spirit-God's invisible relationship to the saints,and God working spiritually among the saints.

The same God doing it all with no distinction of persons.

Magenta · Jul 25, 2017

williamjordan said:

The resurrection was not a foreign concept. See John 11:

(23 Jesus said to her, “Your brother will rise again.”

24 Martha answered, “I know he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day.”

25 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. The one who believes in me will live, even though they die;

26 and whoever lives by believing in me will never die. Do you believe this?”

27“Yes, Lord,” she replied, “I believe that you are the Messiah, the Son of God, who is to come into the world.”)

Former prophets had also raised people from death.

[TABLE="width: 100%"]
[TR]
[TD]1). Elijah the Prophet raised a widow's son from the dead (1 Kings 17:21-22).[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]2). Elisha the Prophet brought back the son of a Shunammite woman (2 Kings 4:35).[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]3). A dead man placed in the grave of Elisha also returned to life when his body touched the prophets bones (2 Kings 4:35).[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

[TABLE="width: 100%"]
[TR]
[TH]New Testament Resurrections[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]4). Jesus raised up the daughter of Jarius (Luke 8:54-55).[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]5) Jesus raised up Lazarus (John 11:43-44).[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]6). Peter revived Tabitha (Dorcas) (Acts 9:40-41).[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]7). Paul revived Eutychus (Acts 20:9-12).[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]8). Many Saints rose from the dead at the resurrection of Jesus (Matt. 27:50-53).[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]9). Jesus Himself rose from the dead (Matthew 28:5-8).[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]10). Jesus raised the son of the widow of Nain from the dead (Luke 7:11-15).[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

The Trinity Discussion

jaybird88

Guest

Senior Member

jaybird88

Guest

Senior Member

jaybird88

Guest

Senior Member

Senior Member

jaybird88

Guest

Senior Member

jaybird88

Guest

Senior Member

Senior Member

Senior Member

jaybird88

Guest

Senior Member

Senior Member

jaybird88

Guest

Senior Member

Banned

Senior Member