The Trinity Discussion

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prove-all

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Trinity…..1 john 5
[SUP]7 [/SUP]For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one. [SUP]8 [/SUP]And there are three that bear witness on earth:[SUP][[/SUP][SUP]b[/SUP][SUP]][/SUP] the Spirit, the water, and the blood; and these three agree as one.

I guess it depends if you believe in scripture or not.
Some things may have ambiguity and are subject to
interpretation. But when it blatantly states that these
3 are one, there is no ambiguity.
but them verses where [not ] inspired by God


I John 5:7-8 all the italicized words were spuriously added to the Latin translation
of the Bible in the fourth century by a monk copyist.

The italicized words do not appear in any of the original Greek manuscripts


I am one that bear witness of myself,
and the Father that sent me beareth witness of me.
 

prove-all

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Matthew 28:19 does not “prove” the trinity: “Go ye therefore, and teach
all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit.”


reconciled to God by the death of Jesus Christ (Romans 5:10). God the Father brings us to
and grants us repentance (Romans 2:4). And after baptism (Acts 2:38), it is the Holy Spirit
entering into us that actually begets us as sons of God (Romans 8:9, 14, 16-17).


As the begetting agent that comes from God, the Holy Spirit then is the earnest or
down payment of our salvation (Ephesians 1:14; Romans 8:16). That is why we are
baptized in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit.

God commands us to “prove all things” (1 Thessalonians 5:21). John 17:17 says,
“Thy word is truth" The word trinity is not even in the bible.
 

prove-all

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So, there a rankings in the Godhead then?
The father has [have] an important role that must be respected.
"the word which you hear is not Mine but the Father's who sent Me"

“Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you.
If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for
my Father is greater than I” (John 14:28).

The Father is greater then the Son. He is the Head of the family.
The Church is the body. Christ is the Head of the church (Col. 1:18).

18And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning,
the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

Joh 6:44 No man can come (to me), except( the Father) which hath sent me
draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to (my) Father:
but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father,
(and your) Father; and to (my) God, and (your) God. (John 20:17 KJV)

Jesus Christ came to Earth to declare the Father (John 1:18), Jesus Christ said
He came specifically to “reveal” the Father (Matt 11:27; Luke 10:22).

“I speak to the world those things which I have heard of him” (John 8:26).
For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me,
he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.

-

No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in
the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

A "bosom" is the breast of a human being, with the arms as an enclosure; a
loving embrace by the arms of one person about another;[an intimate relationship].

Ephesians 1:20 (KJV)
Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead,
and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,

Romans 10:9 (KJV)
That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe
in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
'

For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;


And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself
be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
 
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jaybird88

Guest
but them verses where [not ] inspired by God


I John 5:7-8 all the italicized words were spuriously added to the Latin translation
of the Bible in the fourth century by a monk copyist.

The italicized words do not appear in any of the original Greek manuscripts


I am one that bear witness of myself,
and the Father that sent me beareth witness of me.
wait a minute, are you saying the original inspired text were changed? what would be the motive for doing such a thing?
 

prove-all

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Is The Trinity True Or False - Is The Trinity Biblical

The Origin of the Trinity Doctrine

It was about a century after Tertullian when Arianism began causing so
many disputes that Constantine convened the first ecumenical Council
in Church history to settle them.

Arius was an elder in the Alexandrian Church in the early fourth century
that taught Christ truly is the begotten Son of God and why God is called
His Father to state the obvious. A real Father and Son in other words.

Opposing the teachings of Arius was Athanasius, a deacon also from Alexandria.
His view was an early form of Trinitarianism where the Father, Son and Holy Spirit
are said to be all the same one god but distinct from each other making it impossible
for them to be a real Father and Son.

His view was a further but deteriorating change to what Tertullian believed with
the Holy Spirit not yet claimed to be a literal being. That came later.

Mainstream history states Arius taught Christ was created, but the Church burnt
what Arius believed and some historians claim they altered records and falsely
rumoured that he taught Christ was created in order to discredit him.

The Catholic Church is known for creating false historical records to their interpretation
of events to hide the real truth at times. Consider the following for instance.

The view of Athanasius was highly influenced by Origen who was a Greek philosopher
and theologian who reinterpreted Christian doctrine through the philosophy of Neoplatonism.

His work was later condemned as unorthodox. Origen taught the doctrine of Purgatory,
transubstantiation, transmigration and reincarnation of the soul, the Holy Spirit was
a feminine force, Jesus was only a created being, there would be no physical resurrection,
the creation account in Genesis is a fictitious story and is known to have publicly castrated
himself based on Matthew 19.

Arius on the other hand was a pupil of Lucian of Antioch. Lucian was responsible
for the work that gave us what is known as the Textus Receptus which was completed
by Erasmus, and is what gave us the trusted New Testament of the KJV Bible.

These and other facts reveal that Athanasius was influenced by Greek philosophy
and that Arius probably taught Biblical truth despite mainstream history.

Some believe Constantine was the first Christian Roman Emperor but he was actually
a sun worshiper who was baptized on his deathbed. During his reign he had his eldest
son and his wife murdered. His belief at best was a blend of paganism and Christianity
for political purposes, and so he neither cared nor really understood this dispute but was
just eager to bring the controversy to a close and keep unity in his empire.

When the bishops gathered at Nicea on May 20, 325 AD to resolve the crisis, very few
shared Athanasius's view of Christ as most held a position midway between Athanasius
and Arius. The religious debates lasted two months before the Council rejected the minority
view of Arius, but having no alternative, Constantine approved the view of Athanasius,
which was also a minority view. And so the Church was left supporting a belief held by
only a minority of those attending.

The Encyclopedia Britannica states: “Constantine himself presided, actively guiding
the discussions, and personally proposed ... the crucial formula expressing the relation
of Christ to God in the creed issued by the council ... Overawed by the emperor, the bishops,
with two exceptions only, signed the creed, many of them much against their inclination.”
— (1971 edition, Vol. 6, “Constantine,” p. 386)

Horrific religious persecution followed the decision made by Constantine who was
essentially a pagan Emperor who imposed an invented creed never preached by Jesus.

Constantine exiled those who refused to accept the creed as well as the bishops who
signed the creed but refused to join in condemnation of Arius. He also ordered all copies
of the Thalia to be burned, which was the book in which Arius expressed his teachings.
But several years later Constantine became lenient toward those he condemned and exiled
at the council and allowed them to return. In AD 335, they brought accusations against
Athanasius and so now Constantine had Athanasius banished! This was not about Biblical truth.

As a pagan sun worshipper, Constantine also enforced the first Sunday law just four years
earlier and hence played a major role in bringing two pagan traditions into the Church.

It was four hundred years after the cross when they formulated this creed that never existed
before hand, and so the Apostles and the early Church could never have taught it either.
See Encyclopedia Britannica and historical quotes.

Many of the Bishops who formulated the doctrine of the trinity were steeped in Greek
and Platonic philosophy, which influenced their religious views. In fact the language they
used in defining the trinity is taken directly from Platonic and Greek philosophy.

The Platonic term trias, meaning three, was Latinized as trinitas, which gave us the English
word trinity which is neither biblical nor Christian. As Bible scholars John McClintock and
James Strong (wrote the famous Strong's Concordance) explain, “Towards the end of the
1st century, and during the 2nd, many learned men came over both from Judaism and paganism
to Christianity. These brought with them into the Christian schools of theology their Platonic
ideas and phraseology.” — (Cyclopaedia of Biblical, Theological, and Ecclesiastical Literature,
1891, Vol. 10, “Trinity,” p. 553)


So the trinity was not derived from scripture but was conceived in philosophy.
Greek philosophers were greatly influenced by Plato (427-347 BC) who was considered
the greatest of all Greek philosophers. Plato was ingrained with Trinitarian thought
and knew that all the ancient religions had triad deities, and so he desired to come up
with a better definition to define God above all the deities of Greek mythology.

Plato's definition of God was,
(1) The “first God,” who was the Supreme Being in the universe;
(2) the “second God,” whom Plato described as the “soul of the universe”; and
(3) the “third God,” defined as the “spirit.”

The Jewish philosopher Philo of Alexandria (15 BC-AD 50) who followed
Greek philosophy was influenced by Plato's version and saw God as,
(1) Father, who created all things (Philo named him “the Demiurge”),
(2) Mother, who was Knowledge the Maker possessed and
(3) the Beloved Son was the world. -Supposedly the union of demiurge and
knowledge produced man's world. This esoteric type of thinking is what led
to the birth and development of the trinity.


Notice how these quotes document a belief in a divine trinity in many regions and religions
of the ancient world and that the origin of the conception is entirely pagan. Egyptologist
Arthur Weigall summed up the influence of ancient beliefs on the adoption of the trinity
doctrine by the Catholic Church in this excerpt from his book Paganism in Our Christianity.


And so the Council of Nicea did not end the controversy and the bishops went on teaching as
they had before, and the Arian crisis continued for another sixty years. Athanasius was exiled
no fewer than five times and it was very difficult to make his creed stick. The ongoing disputes
were violent and bloody at times. Noted historian Will Durant writes,

“Probably more Christians were slaughtered by Christians in these two years (342-3)
than by all the persecutions of Christians by pagans in the history of Rome.” —
(The Story of Civilization, Vol. 4: The Age of Faith, 1950, p. 8). So Christians fought
and slaughtered one another over their differing views of God.


So after Constantine's death in 337 AD, disputes continued. Constantine's son
Constantius II favoured the Arians and set out to reverse the Nicene Creed.

Constantius used his power to exile bishops adhering to the Nicene Creed and especially
Athanasius who fled to Rome. The debates resulted in numerous councils. Among them
the Council of Sardica in 343 AD, the Council of Sirmium in 358 AD and the double Council
of Rimini and Seleucia in 359 AD, and no fewer than fourteen further creed formulas
between 340 and 360 AD.

After Constantius' death in 361 AD, his successor Julian, who was a devotee
of Rome's pagan gods, declared that he would no longer favor one Church
faction over another and allowed all exiled bishops to return, which resulted
in further increasing dissension among Christians.


*Please I'm not a trinity hater, but just a truth seeker of Gods Kingdom

Disputes eventually became over the nature of the Holy Spirit. So 44 years after
Constantine's death in May 381 AD, Emperor Theodosius, baptized only a year
earlier, convened the Council of Constantinople to resolve them.

Theodosius favoured the Nicene Creed and so after he arrived in Constantinople
he expelled the bishop Demophilus, and surrendered the Churches there to Gregory
of Nazianzus who was the leader of a small Nicene community there and one of three
men that became known as “the three Cappadocians.” These three men had an agenda
at this council which was for the first time to push the idea of the Holy Spirit being
a literal being.

Gregory was recently appointed as archbishop of Constantinople, but due to illness,
Nectarius, an elderly city senator had to take over the role of archbishop and presided
over the council. And so Nectarius was baptized for the job and the Trinitarian view on
the Holy Spirit was governed by someone with little or no knowledge of theology!

What resulted became known as the Nicene-Constantinopolitan Creed where they now
decided that the Holy Spirit was a literal being. Any who disagreed were in accordance
with the edicts of the emperor and Church authorities branded heretics and dealt with
accordingly. This final teaching on the nature of God is what became the trinity
as generally understood today.

It was not decided so much from Scripture but from Greek philosophy,
much bloodshed and whoever had the most power.


So in short, when Babylon was conquered, most of the Babylonian Priests took
their pagan teachings to Alexandria which resulted in the school of Alexandria.
The Alexandrines incorporated Greek Pagan philosophical beliefs from Plato's
teachings into Christianity (Neoplatonism), and interpreted much of the Bible
allegorically. Lucian rejected this system entirely and propounded a system
of literal interpretation that dominated the Eastern Church for a long period.

Thus Origen taught the allegorical method of explanation of Scripture that
Athanasius and the three Cappadocians learned from, which was influenced
by Plato and strong pagan theological speculations, which gave us the trinity doctrine.

“The Alexandria catechetical school, which revered Clement of Alexandria and Origen,
the greatest theologian of the Greek Church, as its heads, applied the allegorical method
to the explanation of Scripture. Its thought was influenced by Plato: its strong point was
[pagan] theological speculations. Athanasius and the three Cappadocians [the men whose
Trinitarian views were adopted by the Catholic Church at the Councils of Nicaea and
Constantinople] had been included among its members.” — (Hubert Jedin, Ecumenical
Councils of the Catholic Church: an Historical Outline, 1960, p. 28)
 
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Nehemiah6

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Matthew 28:19 does not “prove” the trinity: “Go ye therefore, and teach
all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit.
So you see the Trinity staring you in the face, and yet you claim this does not "prove" the Trinity. So is that wilful blindness or simple lack of comprehension? So tell us on what grounds you have made this assertion and simply dismissed the plain words of God.

Is the Father shown be be God in the NT? Absolutely
Is the Son shown to be God in th NT? Absolutely
Is the Holy Spirit shown to be God in the NT? Absolutely

So one can only conclude that you will not believe the Word of God even when it is presented to you. Everything else you have posted in this post is irrelevant in this regard. To say that the word "Trinity" is not in the Bible and therefore it is untrue is of little consequence. There are many other words and terms which are not in the Bible and they are still true because they sum up or present Bible truth e.g. "the Rapture".
 

Nehemiah6

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I John 5:7-8 all the italicized words were spuriously added to the Latin translation
of the Bible in the fourth century by a monk copyist.
While these verses are not found in the majority of manuscripts they are indeed found in a minority of manuscripts, and both external and internal evidence indicate that this is genuine Scripture. There are many conservative Bible scholars who have examined this allegation in detail and concluded that 1 John 5:7 must remain. That was also the conclusion of the KJV translators.
 

prove-all

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May 16, 2014
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Is the Holy Spirit shown to be God in the NT?
the N.T. shows the Holy Spirit is the very The Power of God

15He hath made the earth (by his power), he hath established the world by his wisdom,
and hath stretched out the heaven by his understanding.

5I have made the earth, the man and the beast that are upon the ground, (by my great power)
and by my outstretched arm, (and have given it) (unto whom] it seemed meet unto me.

35And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee,
and (the power of the Highest) shall overshadow thee: therefore also
that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called (the Son of God).

-- the Holy Spirit is the very power of God

Behold my servant, whom I uphold; (mine elect), in whom my soul delighteth;
I have put (my spirit upon him): he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles.

15For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor
strong drink; and he shall be (filled with) the Holy Ghost, (even from his mother's womb).


14 He shall glorify me: for he shall [receive] of mine, and shall [shew it] unto you.
 
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prove-all

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While these verses are not found in the majority of manuscripts they are indeed found in a minority of manuscripts, and both external and internal evidence indicate that this is genuine Scripture. There are many conservative Bible scholars who have examined this allegation in detail and concluded that 1 John 5:7 must remain. That was also the conclusion of the KJV translators.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comma_Johanneum

The Comma Johanneum, also called the Johannine Comma or the Heavenly Witnesses,
is a comma (a short clause) found in some manuscripts of the First Epistle of John[1] at 5:7–8.

The scholarly consensus is that that passage is [a Latin corruption] that entered the Greek
manuscript tradition in some subsequent copies.[1] The Comma and the question of its
authenticity have particular bearing on the development of the theological doctrine of the Trinity


why no third witness here?

John 8:18 (KJV)
1] I am one that bear witness of myself,
2] and the Father that sent me beareth witness of me.
 

prove-all

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blasphemes against the Holy Spirit
[or the very power of God]

it is blaspheme associated with attributing Jesus' works
[using the power of God] to that of demons.
 
J

jaybird88

Guest
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comma_Johanneum

The Comma Johanneum, also called the Johannine Comma or the Heavenly Witnesses,
is a comma (a short clause) found in some manuscripts of the First Epistle of John[1] at 5:7–8.

The scholarly consensus is that that passage is [a Latin corruption] that entered the Greek
manuscript tradition in some subsequent copies.[1] The Comma and the question of its
authenticity have particular bearing on the development of the theological doctrine of the Trinity


why no third witness here?

John 8:18 (KJV)
1] I am one that bear witness of myself,
2] and the Father that sent me beareth witness of me.
from what i remember the passage in question does not show up until the 16th century and was never quoted by an early church father?
 

valiant

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Mar 22, 2015
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Matthew 28:19 does not “prove” the trinity: “Go ye therefore, and teach
all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit.”
This is where you are in error. They are to be baptised in the ONE NAME of Father, Son and Holy Spirit and that ONE NAME is Yahweh.

The triune God is essential to the Bible.
 

valiant

Senior Member
Mar 22, 2015
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why no third witness here?

John 8:18 (KJV)
1] I am one that bear witness of myself,
2] and the Father that sent me beareth witness of me.
Because two is all that is required.
 

bluto

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Aug 4, 2016
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Any one care to share their thoughts, also from the word of why you believe that the trinity is the right way to view God? or even if you do not believe it and care to say why.
I myself do not believe the doctrine of the trinity, but I am not against those that do, nor do I believe it's dependent on a person's salvation.
Ok mark, on what basis do you not believe the doctrine of the Trinity? In other words, what is your reasoning? :eek:

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
 
V

vinfaux52

Guest
Hi Mark you don't know me but. But I can say that there are indeed 3 distinct figures in the kingdom of God .
I was early 20s when I broke a Ford F150 into two total halves . The Lord spared my life that night .
That night I cried out God ,God showed up. Huge inside that truck . ,That one in my truck ,Then as I began to read the Bile
I saw Gods word rise up from off the page this scripture was John 3-16. I discerned the same presence I felt within my truck
as I kept reading along with this same presence I felt another along side .me and then I heard this a quote from the book of Matthew , This is my beloved Son in whom I am well pleased . This force within my truck Brought me His Son . I did all I could to learn of Him I have now followed the Lord for over 33.5 years now .And my friend there are indeed 3 known as the trinity . For now two are seated and one the Holy Spirit is still here upon this earth just as Jesus said . He is who dwells inside of man when we ask .All three have a feel and when God's child is filled he knows who's presence he is in . For just as Stephen in the Bible see's as he is being stoned ,looks up and see the God heads all 3 looking down upon him as he is laying in the street being stoned Saul of Tarsus was there watching he even held Stephen's cloak, while he was being stoned to death. Saul would latter become Apostle Paul. You see Mark, man today omits Jesus Command to be filled with his Holy Spirit ,which is who leads man in trouble times ,And when you as Man obey Gods word ,He God can only be one thing unto man God. Each member does indeed validate the other . I'm living proof that Jesus spoke the total truth. For Jesus said this unto those who believe. When He the Spirit of truth come and makes His abode in you my Father and I will also come and take up residence as well . Tell me Saint's of God who dwells in us . I know my Father I know my Savior and I know my Holy Spirit . You see my friend God doesn't just share his golden nuggets with those who don't believe . I walked that way for years until I raised my Father in Tomball Hospital 30 minutes he was Gone . The Lord through me brought him back, and them I was led into the wilderness by the Lord for 3.5 years ,and the first thing He does upon bringing me out of the wilderness casts a demon out of a 33 year old client of mine , now saved and follows Jesus daily . Jesus my friend is the Intimacy with Jesus .Start reading out loud for faith comes by hearing ,and by hearing the word of God spoken out loud.
 
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Because two is all that is required.
Yes the Father and the Son two attributes of one Spirit as a work of one faith working together in perfect submission to one another and perfect harmony. They performed the work that provides the peace surpassing all understanding


God is not a man as us .never was never could be . God remains without mother and father, beginning of days or end of Spirit life
 
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if u dont believe Jesus is God can u be saved yes or no.???????????
 

tourist

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Mar 13, 2014
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Tennessee
if u dont believe Jesus is God can u be saved yes or no.???????????
Depends on whether or not that your sorry for your sins and desire positive spiritual change in your life. God will help those who pray for Him to help them in they're unbelief or lack of understanding on the true nature of God.
 

OneFaith

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Sep 5, 2016
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Any one care to share their thoughts, also from the word of why you believe that the trinity is the right way to view God? or even if you do not believe it and care to say why.
I myself do not believe the doctrine of the trinity, but I am not against those that do, nor do I believe it's dependent on a person's salvation.
Genesis 1:26 shows that God is plural. "God said 'Let us make man in our own image." In the image of God (not of angels nor any other being) they were made- both male and female.

In Hebrews 1:9 the Father Himself calls Jesus 'God'.

In John 1:1 it says that Jesus was with God, and that Jesus was God (Deity).

God is plural- only 3 Beings are Deity- God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit.

What does it mean to be a natural born son? It means that the DNA of the father, and the DNA of the mother have formed a new being in their likeness, in their image. (And what God has formed together no man can separate). But, what if the father was able to do this without the mother? That would mean that the child is not half the DNA of his father and half the DNA of his mother- the 100% DNA being from the father means that all the fullness of the father dwells in the son. (Colossians 1:19). So in Jesus' case, that would include His Father's Deity (God-ness).

The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are three beings, but they are one in mind in purpose. Just how the church is supposed to be of one mind and purpose- but we are definitely all separate beings, every Christian in the church is not the same person, but we are of one body (unity). In the same way, the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit will not be separated. For example, if someone accepts the Father and the Holy Spirit, but does not accept Jesus is the Son of the living God, then they will fall short of all three (which is the meaning of 666).

The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are not the same person, but are united as one in mind and purpose. Just like an egg has three parts- a shell, a white, and a yolk- yet it is one egg. Therefore the trinity is correct- God is plural.
 
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