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God wouldn't break the rules by having a woman instruct a congregation of men. The woman would be speaking out of her own mind whether she was speaking accurately or inaccurately. God simply would not use a woman to do that.
I've met wonderfully gifted and anointed women in the church. But their ministry ends where the instruction and guidance of men begins. Sorry, gals.
I've met wonderfully gifted and anointed women in the church. But their ministry ends where the instruction and guidance of men begins. Sorry, gals.
I don't think God is sexist and I certainly can't imagine him playing favorites between his children, not to mention if a man will not stand for him would it really be so odd for him to use what men see as foolish and to be silent to correct them? Will God not use who he chooses? and is the holy spirit really only limited to be using his children fully to a certain sex? I don't think that God sees things this way, yes I do think he could have made certain roles for both men and women but I don't think he would forbid a women to speak his truth if the men will not
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Ask Paul:
11A woman must quietly receive instruction with entire submissiveness. 12But I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet. 13For it was Adam who was first created, and then Eve. 14And it was not Adam who was deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression." (1 Timothy 2:11-14 NASB)
14I am writing these things to you, hoping to come to you before long; 15but in case I am delayed, I write so that you will know how one ought to conduct himself in the household of God..." (1 Timothy 3:14 NASB)
I know people pretty much don't listen to you when you post in on-line Christians forums, but, hey, it's kind of fun to post answers anyway.
11A woman must quietly receive instruction with entire submissiveness. 12But I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet. 13For it was Adam who was first created, and then Eve. 14And it was not Adam who was deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression." (1 Timothy 2:11-14 NASB)
14I am writing these things to you, hoping to come to you before long; 15but in case I am delayed, I write so that you will know how one ought to conduct himself in the household of God..." (1 Timothy 3:14 NASB)
I know people pretty much don't listen to you when you post in on-line Christians forums, but, hey, it's kind of fun to post answers anyway.
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11A woman must quietly receive instruction with entire submissiveness. 12But I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet. 13For it was Adam who was first created, and then Eve. 14And it was not Adam who was deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression." (1 Timothy 2:11-14 NASB)
Are you still laughing now?
Are you still laughing now?
Yes I was waiting for you to post those scriptures but you also have to take into consideration that things were different in those times, women were second class citizens back then. I mean if we are to take these verses as they are then it's the same as stoning a prostitute because the scriptures in the ot said to. But as you can see with Jesus you cannot go by scripture alone otherwise he would have stoned mary wouldn't he?
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Instruct children and other women:
"...teach the older women to be reverent in the way they live, not to be slanderers or addicted to much wine, but to teach what is good. 4Then they can urge the younger women to love their husbands and children, 5to be self-controlled and pure, to be busy at home, to be kind, and to be subject to their husbands, so that no one will malign the word of God." (Titus 2:3-5 NIV)
"...teach the older women to be reverent in the way they live, not to be slanderers or addicted to much wine, but to teach what is good. 4Then they can urge the younger women to love their husbands and children, 5to be self-controlled and pure, to be busy at home, to be kind, and to be subject to their husbands, so that no one will malign the word of God." (Titus 2:3-5 NIV)
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And, yes, I was waiting for you to post your 'cultural' reason why we don't have to obey Paul's command anymore.
As we can plainly see, Paul's reasons for not letting women teach and have authority over men is not cultural, but comes directly from the order of headship in creation itself, and how Eve herself demonstrated by her buffoonery in the garden how women were not designed to be the spiritual head:
13For it was Adam who was first created, and then Eve. 14And it was not Adam who was deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression." (1 timothy 2:13-14 NASB)
Who said adulterers are not to be stoned? Did the death penalty 'go away' in this New Covenant? Or are we just a lot smarter now and realize that to condemn someone to death for their sins is to condemn yourself because you do the same things?
As we can plainly see, Paul's reasons for not letting women teach and have authority over men is not cultural, but comes directly from the order of headship in creation itself, and how Eve herself demonstrated by her buffoonery in the garden how women were not designed to be the spiritual head:
13For it was Adam who was first created, and then Eve. 14And it was not Adam who was deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression." (1 timothy 2:13-14 NASB)
Who said adulterers are not to be stoned? Did the death penalty 'go away' in this New Covenant? Or are we just a lot smarter now and realize that to condemn someone to death for their sins is to condemn yourself because you do the same things?
The key part of those verses in "But I do not allow...". Paul doesn't allow, that doesn't mean that Jesus wouldn't allow. Seems to me that Paul is stating a personal opinion. I'm not saying that if it is an opinion than it should be disregarded but I believe the use of the words "But I do not allow", means that it's not necessarily set it stone. and should therefore be strictly adhered to.
Thanks for answering my first question. I find legalists are usually KJV. They hang onto words so tightly, they believe the words of an old translation, rather than the message of the gospel. They believe in their own self righteousness so much they forget to believe in God. Their literalism takes them past legalism into the realm of bitterness and envy, because they cannot stand to hear or see women doing a better job of things, than they are.
I've been through the Greek over and over on these passage, including this one. I've been through the cultural history of both Corinth and Ephesus. If you want me to re-copy and paste the truth, just ask me, I will. Because the KJV in particular is very biased against women, as King James made sure his bible had rules and regulations to rob women of their gifts and birthright in Christ.
So, in the interests of disclosure, I am an ordained pastor, I preach in my church, although I am not the lead pastor. If you prefer him, then you would get a man who is into open theism and universalism, because the head of our search committee, a man, didn't do a good job of questioning him about what he believes. So, now we get a white washed sermon every week. I figured it out right at the beginning, now others are. I leave that to God, and preach the truth when I get asked to preach. And it seems to bless everyone.
If the Bible truly said that women shouldn't speak in church, and they must wear long hair, I would be doing it. Well, in fact I do have very long hair. But an appointment this week should put an end to that. It's been in the 90's and 100s now for months, and I am tired of hot, heavy hair on my neck. Although, I will say after 25 years of having thin, horrid hair because of meds, that Biotin has worked, and my thick hair has returned. But that is another story.
Anyway, following the world means not follow Jesus. This post is not about following Jesus. As Kayla says, it is not about the gospel, or evangelizing the world, which is something we should all be concerned about. It is just about unfettered misogyny, and trying to use a 400 year old version of the Bible to justify it. Sad!
As for me, just so you know, happily married 35 years with 4 grown children and 4 1/2 grandchildren. I used to call myself a feminist, but it stands for too much that is ugly, like abortion and militant stupidity among certain women. As for socialism, I like a mixed economy. We have universal health care in Canada, and it is so much better than people dying without being treated, or going bankrupt because health care is a business and not a way to care for those who have less. You know, like Jesus told us to do! Care for the poor! And the OT, too!
I've been through the Greek over and over on these passage, including this one. I've been through the cultural history of both Corinth and Ephesus. If you want me to re-copy and paste the truth, just ask me, I will. Because the KJV in particular is very biased against women, as King James made sure his bible had rules and regulations to rob women of their gifts and birthright in Christ.
So, in the interests of disclosure, I am an ordained pastor, I preach in my church, although I am not the lead pastor. If you prefer him, then you would get a man who is into open theism and universalism, because the head of our search committee, a man, didn't do a good job of questioning him about what he believes. So, now we get a white washed sermon every week. I figured it out right at the beginning, now others are. I leave that to God, and preach the truth when I get asked to preach. And it seems to bless everyone.
If the Bible truly said that women shouldn't speak in church, and they must wear long hair, I would be doing it. Well, in fact I do have very long hair. But an appointment this week should put an end to that. It's been in the 90's and 100s now for months, and I am tired of hot, heavy hair on my neck. Although, I will say after 25 years of having thin, horrid hair because of meds, that Biotin has worked, and my thick hair has returned. But that is another story.
Anyway, following the world means not follow Jesus. This post is not about following Jesus. As Kayla says, it is not about the gospel, or evangelizing the world, which is something we should all be concerned about. It is just about unfettered misogyny, and trying to use a 400 year old version of the Bible to justify it. Sad!
As for me, just so you know, happily married 35 years with 4 grown children and 4 1/2 grandchildren. I used to call myself a feminist, but it stands for too much that is ugly, like abortion and militant stupidity among certain women. As for socialism, I like a mixed economy. We have universal health care in Canada, and it is so much better than people dying without being treated, or going bankrupt because health care is a business and not a way to care for those who have less. You know, like Jesus told us to do! Care for the poor! And the OT, too!
