Should women be silent in church and wear head coverings?

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Should women be silent in church and wear head coverings?

  • Yes

    Votes: 7 22.6%
  • No

    Votes: 19 61.3%
  • If they have long hair, they can skip the head covering.

    Votes: 5 16.1%

  • Total voters
    31
S

Sully

Guest
Instruct children and other women:
Is this from you?
eh, not seeing "instruct children and other women"

Titus 2:3-5King James Version (KJV)
3 The aged women likewise, that they be in behaviour as becometh holiness, not false accusers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things;
4 That they may teach the young women to be sober, to love their husbands, to love their children,
5 To be discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God be not blasphemed.
 
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P

PHart

Guest
The key part of those verses in "But I do not allow...". Paul doesn't allow, that doesn't mean that Jesus wouldn't allow. Seems to me that Paul is stating a personal opinion. I'm not saying that if it is an opinion than it should be disregarded but I believe the use of the words "But I do not allow", means that it's not necessarily set it stone. and should therefore be strictly adhered to.
Here's how Paul wraps up his letter to Timothy. It' pretty well dismisses any notion that he was merely sharing his opinions:

"These are the things you are to teach and insist on. 3If anyone teaches otherwise and does not agree to the sound instruction of our Lord Jesus Christ and to godly teaching, 4they are conceited and understand nothing. They have an unhealthy interest in controversies and quarrels about words that result in envy, strife, malicious talk, evil suspicions 5and constant friction between people of corrupt mind, who have been robbed of the truth" (1 Timothy 6:2-5 NIV)
 

Blain

The Word Weaver
Aug 28, 2012
19,215
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And, yes, I was waiting for you to post your 'cultural' reason why we don't have to obey Paul's command anymore.

As we can plainly see, Paul's reasons for not letting women teach and have authority over men is not cultural, but comes directly from the order of headship in creation itself, and how Eve herself demonstrated by her buffoonery in the garden how women were not designed to be the spiritual head:

13For it was Adam who was first created, and then Eve. 14And it was not Adam who was deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression." (1 timothy 2:13-14 NASB)



Who said adulterers are not to be stoned? Did the death penalty 'go away' in this New Covenant? Or are we just a lot smarter now and realize that to condemn someone to death for their sins is to condemn yourself because you do the same things?
Call it what you may but for one to limit the holy spirit because of sex is to limit God himself, you can post all kinds of scripture to prove your point but that doesn't make you right. For instance the church is the body of Christ not a building and if women are to be silent and to submit to men then even here on the forums by that logic any women here should just be silent then? As for adulterers would you kill a prostitute? Can you honestly stone a person like that with their blood on your hands and be in the right? We are not called to judge and we are not called to kill even if you read the scriptures and even if you post them to fit your point if you don't see through his eyes and if you don't love as he does then how can you understand the scriptures you so cling to for your point?

If Jesus was in church and you didn't know this random man was him and a women stood up for God's truth because the pastor was teaching false lies and you got on to the women for doing so even though you yourself didn't stand for god's truth would Jesus have said well done to you or would he have gotten on to you for trying to silence this women for doing what no one else would? You say the holy spirit would never use a women in a way but do you really think you know him that well to know he would limit himself like that?
 
P

PHart

Guest
eh, not seeing "instruct children and other women"

Titus 2:3-5King James Version (KJV)
3 The aged women likewise, that they be in behaviour as becometh holiness, not false accusers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things;
4 That they may teach the young women to be sober, to love their husbands, to love their children,
5 To be discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God be not blasphemed.
Read the emboldened part in your post above. What part do you not understand?

And there is no prohibition against women teaching boys. They aren't men operating in their God given roles of authority, yet, that it would somehow be 'teaching a man' for a woman to instruct a small boy.
 
P

PHart

Guest
Call it what you may but for one to limit the holy spirit because of sex is to limit God himself, you can post all kinds of scripture to prove your point but that doesn't make you right. For instance the church is the body of Christ not a building and if women are to be silent and to submit to men then even here on the forums by that logic any women here should just be silent then? As for adulterers would you kill a prostitute? Can you honestly stone a person like that with their blood on your hands and be in the right? We are not called to judge and we are not called to kill even if you read the scriptures and even if you post them to fit your point if you don't see through his eyes and if you don't love as he does then how can you understand the scriptures you so cling to for your point?

If Jesus was in church and you didn't know this random man was him and a women stood up for God's truth because the pastor was teaching false lies and you got on to the women for doing so even though you yourself didn't stand for god's truth would Jesus have said well done to you or would he have gotten on to you for trying to silence this women for doing what no one else would? You say the holy spirit would never use a women in a way but do you really think you know him that well to know he would limit himself like that?
The church is a disobedient wild rabble. No words will convince you. You want to think and act the way you want to and that's just the way the church is. I knew this was the kind of response that I'd get, lol. The church is a mess. We are in the end times.
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
55,981
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As we can plainly see, Paul's reasons for not letting women teach and have authority over men is not cultural, but comes directly from the order of headship in creation itself, and how Eve herself demonstrated by her buffoonery in the garden how women were not designed to be the spiritual head:

13For it was Adam who was first created, and then Eve. 14And it was not Adam who was deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression." (1 timothy 2:13-14 NASB)
Buffoonery? LOL! Eve was deceived and Adam outright disobeyed, and it was because of HIS sin alone that ALL of creation fell, but in your mind that makes him the better person, more properly equipped to lead? LOL.
 
R

ROSSELLA

Guest
They should never talk if it means interrupting the service (neither should men for that matter). But if they have questions and there is a question/answer portion or if it's a church that's more conversational in some parts of the sermon, then they should not need to sit still and not learn. What if they don't have a husband to ask? What if their husband's not too bright or believes things that are clearly against the Bible? What if every man in the discussion on the verse about not giving false witness is saying other forms of lying are okay, when the woman knows that Jesus, the Truth, wouldn't want people going around lying about everything?
Head coverings...hard to know whether or not that was more of a cultural command or not. I don't wear a head covering, but I'm still not completely settled on the matter. However, I think it's more about what hair and head coverings represented than their mere existence.
This verse says, "Does not even nature itself teach you that if a man has long hair, it is a dishonor to him? But if a woman has long hair, it is a glory to her; for her hair is given to her for a covering" (1 Corinthians 11:14-15). However, Samson was ordered not to cut his hair but he was a man. Different situations or cultural aspects changed .A shaved head was also seen as a sign of mourning, so it would cause quite a stir if a woman had a shaved head for no reason would cause a disruption in church. With no set dress code for society, it's hard to come up with an equivalent example, but I guess it would be like if someone wore a bathing suit to church when no one announced a pool party and the person had no reason to expect to get wet (for a baptism it might be different). Everyone would turn and stare, taking the focus off the sermon and God.

The verses center on modesty, submission to one's husband and God, and not shaming oneself inappropriately (it was permitted to shave one's head to reference shame in certain circumstances, but that goes back to Old Testament verses I'd need to google for every single one). " 3 But I want you to understand that dthe head of every man is Christ, ethe head of a wife1 is her husband,2 and fthe head of Christ is God. 4 Every man who prays or prophesies with his head covered dishonors his head, 5 but every wife32 who prays or gprophesies hwith her head uncovered dishonors her head, since it is the same ias if her head were shaven. 6 For if a wife will not cover her head, then she should cut her hair short. But since it is disgraceful for a wife to cut off her hair or shave her head, let her cover her head. 7 For a man ought not to cover his head, since jhe is the image and glory of God, but kwoman is the glory of man. 8 For lman was not made from woman, but woman from man. 9 Neither was man created for woman, but mwoman for man. 10 That is why a wife ought to have a symbol of authority on her head, because of the angels.4 11 Nevertheless, nin the Lord woman is not independent of man nor man of woman; 12 for as woman was made from man, so man is now born of woman. And oall things are from God. 13 Judge for yourselves: is it proper for a wife to pray to God with her head uncovered? 14 Does not nature itself teach you that if a man wears long hair it is a disgrace for him, 15 but if a woman has long hair, it is her glory? For her hair is given to her for a covering. 16 pIf anyone is inclined to be contentious, we have no such practice, nor do qthe churches of God." Yes, I copied and pasted, forgive the reference numbers/letters.
So, if a man prays with his head covered by a hat or by hair (and how much hair is considered covered?) is he being disobedient? But if so, what about Samson who, though born before this time was commanded by God to keep his hair long? Well, they were different cultures, different situations. It was abnormal for Corinthian men to wear head coverings and for women not to have them (although that information is from a Christian site, not personal deep study into Corinthian culture). For one sex to break with norms would be to draw attention and possibly cross dress. However, Nazirites were commanded not to cut their hair for certain periods of time as part of dedicating themselves to God. Not as an attempt to cross dress.

So, after a rambling consideration, I think it's cultural. Not 100% sure, but I think a woman shouldn't try to draw attention to herself by shaving her head if that's not normal culturally (although maybe to donate hair to cancer patients would be okay because it's not for immodest reasons). Men shouldn't grow long hair to try to draw attention to themselves. No cross dressing by cultural standards, accessories included. So I think it's okay not to wear a head covering, although again I'm not 100 sure.
 
S

Sully

Guest
Read the emboldened part in your post above. What part do you not understand?

And there is no prohibition against women teaching boys. They aren't men operating in their God given roles of authority, yet, that it would somehow be 'teaching a man' for a woman to instruct a small boy.
So "young women" are "children"? Is that it? Still aint buyin' it. I married a young woman, I did NOT marry a child.
 

tourist

Senior Member
Mar 13, 2014
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Here's how Paul wraps up his letter to Timothy. It' pretty well dismisses any notion that he was merely sharing his opinions:

"These are the things you are to teach and insist on. 3If anyone teaches otherwise and does not agree to the sound instruction of our Lord Jesus Christ and to godly teaching, 4they are conceited and understand nothing. They have an unhealthy interest in controversies and quarrels about words that result in envy, strife, malicious talk, evil suspicions 5and constant friction between people of corrupt mind, who have been robbed of the truth" (1 Timothy 6:2-5 NIV)
Seems to me that most of this thread revolves around controversies and quarrels.

People intent on learning the Word of God and apply it in their life will not be able to apply the entire bible to their life at once but only what the Holy Spirit convicts them to change or redirects their path. It is also clear to me that in the verse you quoted it was an opinion of Paul and not necessarily a spiritual command. What your insisting on this verse is legalistic and little to do with having faith in Jesus who died for our sins freeing us from the law.

I'm not saying that this verse in question is lacking in value but that perhaps not everyone is studying that particular verse at this time of their life so therefore it probably would not be applied regardless of what they believe to be the truth.
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
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11A woman must quietly receive instruction with entire submissiveness. 12But I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet. 13For it was Adam who was first created, and then Eve. 14And it was not Adam who was deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression." (1 Timothy 2:11-14 NASB)

Are you still laughing now?
Only at the absence of your contextual consideration.

Do you honestly think that women must remain silent "because" Adam was created first? Consider it for just a moment... does it make any sense at all, on the face of it? Don't default to, "the Bible says it so even if it doesn't make sense...". Think... actually apply brain power to this concept. Is there any logical connection between order of creation and silence? If you can find one (outside of these verses), I welcome your response.
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
55,981
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Read the emboldened part in your post above. What part do you not understand?
Young women with husbands are not children. Do you understand now?
 

tourist

Senior Member
Mar 13, 2014
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Buffoonery? LOL! Eve was deceived and Adam outright disobeyed, and it was because of HIS sin alone that ALL of creation fell, but in your mind that makes him the better person, more properly equipped to lead? LOL.
Maybe 'cause Adam was wearing his big boy pants. I'm pretty certain Eve wasn't wearing them.
 
S

Sully

Guest
Buffoonery? LOL! Eve was deceived and Adam outright disobeyed, and it was because of HIS sin alone that ALL of creation fell, but in your mind that makes him the better person, more properly equipped to lead? LOL.
So true, took me a while to understand the difference but it is profound. Kudos Magenta!
 
P

PHart

Guest
Buffoonery? LOL! Eve was deceived and Adam outright disobeyed, and it was because of HIS sin alone that ALL of creation fell, but in your mind that makes him the better person, more properly equipped to lead? LOL.
No, it is in Paul's mind that the man is the more properly equipped to lead:

"12But I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet.
14 ...it was not Adam who was deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression." (1 Timothy 2:12,14 NASB)

What part in the passage about Adam being more spiritually equipped to lead do you not understand?


And it's true, Adam willfully followed his lovely wife into death. He is a type of Christ who took his bride's sin on himself, too, in order that he and his bride (us) could be together and not separated by death.
 

Blain

The Word Weaver
Aug 28, 2012
19,215
2,551
113
The church is a disobedient wild rabble. No words will convince you. You want to think and act the way you want to and that's just the way the church is. I knew this was the kind of response that I'd get, lol. The church is a mess. We are in the end times.
Do not assume you know the churches hearts, and do not assume you know me. Who are you to say the church is disobedient and lives and acts as we want? Are you saying you don't and we do? It is not for you to decide how the church is because you do not know their hearts, you will always find people who believe opposite than you do and yes a lot of times you cannot change their minds but that never gives you the right to speak for god's church and declare how it is because you do not see as he does you do not know their hearts.

Tell me are you not part of the church? and are you innocent from accusations you make of us?
 
R

ROSSELLA

Guest
Buffoonery? LOL! Eve was deceived and Adam outright disobeyed, and it was because of HIS sin alone that ALL of creation fell, but in your mind that makes him the better person, more properly equipped to lead? LOL.
I also find it ironic when people say, "Women are incompetent at leading or offering advice to men...but you can teach and boss around the children." What they don't realize is that they're saying is "Clearly only someone I deem as incompetent should shape the future!"
 
P

PHart

Guest
So "young women" are "children"? Is that it? Still aint buyin' it. I married a young woman, I did NOT marry a child.
If you can't understand what I wrote there's really nothing I can do to help you.
 
P

PHart

Guest
I also find it ironic when people say, "Women are incompetent at leading or offering advice to men...but you can teach and boss around the children." What they don't realize is that they're saying is "Clearly only someone I deem as incompetent should shape the future!"
Anyone can teach a child the facts about Noah, and Abraham, etc. They aren't old enough to be taught the kinds of things the men in church leadership will teach them one day.

What we have lost grasp of in the modern church is the AUTHORITY that the pastor and elders once had over the lives of believers. Now, when a pastor or elder cheeses us off, we just go to another church. And forget about a pastor or elder actually exercising authority over a member of the church when they sin. That's a joke these days. But that's what God intended for them. We are the one's who have cast off the restraints and gone our own way into rebellion and rejection of sound doctrine.
 
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PHart

Guest
I also find it ironic when people say, "Women are incompetent at leading or offering advice to men...but you can teach and boss around the children." What they don't realize is that they're saying is "Clearly only someone I deem as incompetent should shape the future!"
I have learned from women who teach. The point is, they can not have authority over men. The authority the church knows nothing about now for the reason I posted above. The church is a joke.
 
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PHart

Guest
Do not assume you know the churches hearts, and do not assume you know me. Who are you to say the church is disobedient and lives and acts as we want? Are you saying you don't and we do? It is not for you to decide how the church is because you do not know their hearts, you will always find people who believe opposite than you do and yes a lot of times you cannot change their minds but that never gives you the right to speak for god's church and declare how it is because you do not see as he does you do not know their hearts.

Tell me are you not part of the church? and are you innocent from accusations you make of us?
I judge by fruit. We're supposed to do that.
And I'm making a generalization of the church. If what I said doesn't apply to you....good for you (really). But if you openly reject the non-cultural reason why women are not supposed to be in authority over men then what I said may well apply to you.