Not By Works

[Ariel82]

I am confused at the fight....,,


You look at someone who has walked away from the church, he is unrepentant and cursing God..then he dies..

One person says that person was never saved and thus going to hell.

Another says they were saved and lost their salvation and going to hell.


Why does it matter which you believe when you both think the person is going to hell?

We can't do anything for those who are dead but we can speak to those who wander away and rebel against God.

We have to ask one question of that person:

Does the Holy spirit convict them when they sin and are they repentant?

If the answer is yes then they need to be shown how to overcome their sins.

If the answer is no, then they need the gospel and the knowledge that they aren't really saved because they don't get convicted by the Holy spirit.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

Ahhh yes, but to her and to many here faith is a WORK.

And therein is the problem!!!

By grace through faith and that faith not of ourselves so no one can boast.
However, let's get really, really real. There is some work in walking out our faith. We struggle. We often say, but I DO believe, Lord, please help me in this area of mistrust! My pet example: the storing of treasure on earth to be our security and safety net in old age. The fear of what will happen to us when we can't work any more if we obey Him in this (this obedience of trust) and DON'T store treasure on earth.

 

[UnderGrace]

She has stated plainly and frequently (now we are gossiping I guess) that works keep us saved.

Those works, then by definition are not the works that are manifested from Christ, since He has saved us and does not manifest Himself in us to keep us saved. No where does scripture teach this.

I didn't get past your first sentence before I had to say: yes, this is where the problem of misunderstanding REALLY lies. You have seen it. Some think that fran thinks the origin of those works is from her hard effort. But note that no one has really discussed with her whether this is the case or not so we don't know if she thinks she can produce any good works apart from trusting Him/abiding in Him. We don't know what she really thinks - whether she is capable of any good works apart from trusting Him to produce them in her.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

She has stated plainly and frequently (now we are gossiping I guess) that works keep us saved.

Those works, then by definition are not the works that are manifested from Christ, since He has saved us and does not manifest Himself in us to keep us saved. No where does scripture teach this.

I am not gossiping about fran. She can see everything you and I say. I am talking about fran, not gossiping. Gossiping is done behind ones back. And with a bad spirit that revels and has glee in doing it behind ones back.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

She has stated plainly and frequently (now we are gossiping I guess) that works keep us saved.

Those works, then by definition are not the works that are manifested from Christ, since He has saved us and does not manifest Himself in us to keep us saved. No where does scripture teach this.

When you say "these works", what works are you referring to. I wasn't mentioning any specific works...I was agreeing with Bruce that a problem is sometimes where one thinks the ORIGIN of works comes from...

 

[Grace777x70]

I didn't get past your first sentence before I had to say: yes, this is where the problem of misunderstanding REALLY lies. You have seen it. Some think that fran thinks the origin of those works is from her hard effort. But note that no one has really discussed with her whether this is the case or not so we don't know if she thinks she can produce any good works apart from trusting Him/abiding in Him. We don't know what she really thinks - whether she is capable of any good works apart from trusting Him to produce them in her.

I agree...

What happens is that when people say things like this - "We must have good works to remain saved".

Those types of words are not indicative of the gospel of the grace of God in Christ and actually reveal a works-based belief system which is contrary to the gospel and this nullifies the grace of Christ from operating in our lives like it was mean to.

Paul said to use "sound words" that can accurately portray faith and the love which are in Christ Jesus.

2 Timothy 1:13 (NASB)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] Retain the standard of sound words which you have heard from me, in the faith and love which are in Christ Jesus.


The "origin" of good works is up to the Lord to decide as outwardly the works can look the same to the natural eye and mind of man.

Paul showed us in 1 Cor. 13 that we can give our money to the poor and even give our lives but without love - it profits him nothing. The person receiving these good works is certainly benefiting......

I am all for good works! Works do not save us - Christ alone is the Savior. Get this backwards and we create a religion that nullifies the grace of God needed to do good works that are birthed in Him.

Sometimes we just need to agree to dis-agree too as none of us know things as we ought to know them as Paul says.

But this constant attacking people with personal attacks is all in the flesh and I personally do not want to interact with this type of behavior. This is why I always interact with you. Your behavior is in accordance with the life of Christ that is obviously in you.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

She has stated plainly and frequently (now we are gossiping I guess) that works keep us saved.

Those works, then by definition are not the works that are manifested from Christ, since He has saved us and does not manifest Himself in us to keep us saved. No where does scripture teach this.

Yes, she has stated that works keep us saved. Now back to her quote: Works keep us saved IN THE SENSE THAT if we are abiding/trusting in Him, we WILL have good works.

Does the problem still exist?

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

I agree...

What happens is that when people say things like this - "We must have good works to remain saved".

Those types of words are not indicative of the gospel of the grace of God in Christ and actually reveal a works-based belief system which is contrary to the gospel and this nullifies the grace of Christ from operating in our lives like it was mean to.

Paul said to use "sound words" that can accurately portray faith and the love which are in Christ Jesus.

2 Timothy 1:13 (NASB)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] Retain the standard of sound words which you have heard from me, in the faith and love which are in Christ Jesus.


The "origin" of good works is up to the Lord to decide as outwardly the works can look the same to the natural eye and mind of man.

Paul showed us in 1 Cor. 13 that we can give our money to the poor and even give our lives but without love - it profits him nothing. The person receiving these good works is certainly benefiting......

I am all for good works! Works do not save us - Christ alone is the Savior. Get this backwards and we create a religion that nullifies the grace of God needed to do good works that are birthed in Him.

Sometimes we just need to agree to dis-agree too as none of us know things as we ought to know them as Paul says.

But this constant attacking people with personal attacks is all in the flesh and I personally do not want to interact with this type of behavior. This is why I always interact with you. Your behavior is in accordance with the life of Christ that is obviously in you.

Yes, she has stated that works keep us saved, but she tried to reiterate her intent with that statement pages back when she said: Works keep us saved IN THE SENSE THAT IF we are abiding/trusting in Him, we WILL have good works. So what do you think of her statement in which she tried to explain the intent behind her previous statement? Is there still a problem?

 

[Grace777x70]

Yes, she has stated that works keep us saved. Now back to her quote: Works keep us saved IN THE SENSE THAT if we are abiding/trusting in Him, we WILL have good works.

Does the problem still exist?

Yes.....most definitely.

IMO - the problem still exists. It is a round about way of saying that "Good works keep us saved".

I believe the truth is "That by us abiding in what Christ has already done for us and relying on His life" - this will bring forth good fruit - fruit that remains - His fruit that we participate in. Without Him - we can do nothing.

It has nothing to do with our eternal destination.

In Him - we have redemption the forgiveness of sins according to the riches of His grace. Eph. 1:7

He has obtained an eternal redemption for us. Heb. 9:12

The truth is as I see it - some people believe that we lose salvation and that this salvation ( as in going to be with the Lord when we die ) is based on us. In this mindset - we "need to do things to keep ourselves saved".

It's a fruit that goes with the original premise of this type of thinking.

 

[PeterJens]

Right here:

I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean from all your uncleannesses, and from all your idols I will cleanse you. And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules. -- Ezekiel 36:25-27


...and here:

Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure. -- Philippians 2:12


...and over here:

Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come -- 1 Corinthians 5:17

Let me see what you are suggesting.
I was saying God does not stop those who wish to rebel against Him from rebelling.

Your answer is he puts a new Spirit in them.
Now the verses you are quoting is what God does for believers, those who desire to
follow Him not for sinners who desire to rebel and walk away.

Now how do you know you are are saint rather than a sinner? You love God and desire
to walk in His ways.

So those who do not desire to walk in Gods ways are not either choosing God or God choosing
them, because if God had chosen them they would not be doing this.

To put it simply, if you believe God chooses sinners to become saints against their will but by
His divine choice, then it is shown in their life and desires.

So those who walk away from God are not chosen, though they may appear to have been at
the beginning.

Only those who abide and desire to walk with God are both chosen and desiring to be with Him.

The idea people do not have a choice, and God moves in them, but can then rebel and stay saved
is absurd.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

I agree...

What happens is that when people say things like this - "We must have good works to remain saved".

Those types of words are not indicative of the gospel of the grace of God in Christ and actually reveal a works-based belief system which is contrary to the gospel and this nullifies the grace of Christ from operating in our lives like it was mean to.

Paul said to use "sound words" that can accurately portray faith and the love which are in Christ Jesus.

2 Timothy 1:13 (NASB)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] Retain the standard of sound words which you have heard from me, in the faith and love which are in Christ Jesus.


The "origin" of good works is up to the Lord to decide as outwardly the works can look the same to the natural eye and mind of man.

Paul showed us in 1 Cor. 13 that we can give our money to the poor and even give our lives but without love - it profits him nothing. The person receiving these good works is certainly benefiting......

I am all for good works! Works do not save us - Christ alone is the Savior. Get this backwards and we create a religion that nullifies the grace of God needed to do good works that are birthed in Him.

Sometimes we just need to agree to dis-agree too as none of us know things as we ought to know them as Paul says.

But this constant attacking people with personal attacks is all in the flesh and I personally do not want to interact with this type of behavior. This is why I always interact with you. Your behavior is in accordance with the life of Christ that is obviously in you.

As to your last paragraph, it is best not to interact with those who constantly attack if you are able to notice your own flesh getting stirred up by their behavior. So that's very wise. We have to get our own flesh and tongue under us instead of ruling us first. We have to take care of our OWN house and it's disrepair before we can help anyone else.

After we see to that with Him, we interact to bless them and to plead for them with Him.

 

[Ariel82]

I didn't get past your first sentence before I had to say: yes, this is where the problem of misunderstanding REALLY lies. You have seen it. Some think that fran thinks the origin of those works is from her hard effort. But note that no one has really discussed with her whether this is the case or not so we don't know if she thinks she can produce any good works apart from trusting Him/abiding in Him. We don't know what she really thinks - whether she is capable of any good works apart from trusting Him to produce them in her.

Fran has stated all good works has to come from faith in Christ and only when we abide in Him and OBEY him...(capitalized that cuz it's one of her favorite words).

She says works are necessary because she doesn't like lazy bums and is trying to get free loaders to get to work instead of saying Jesus does it all. She is big into personal responsibility and that people should own up to having the ability to choose good and bad. Its her mission to fight against licentious doctrines.

At the same time EG and Dcon have said that AFTER BEING SAVED people will produce fruit and do good works because they are saved. Not in order to maintain or keep or prove their salvation. Their mission is against legalist and those who preach a false gospel attempting to enslave people to man-made laws and traditions of works instead of faith in Jesus finished work upon the cross.

The mood of the thread changes when people feel attacked and unloved and unwanted.

 

[Grace777x70]

As to your last paragraph, it is best not to interact with those who constantly attack if you are able to notice your own flesh getting stirred up by their behavior. So that's very wise. We have to get our own flesh and tongue under us instead of ruling us first. We have to take care of our OWN house and it's disrepair before we can help anyone else.

After we see to that with Him, we interact to bless them and to plead for them with Him.

I agree...

Hebrews 12:15 (NASB)
[SUP]15 [/SUP] See to it that no one comes short of the grace of God; that no root of bitterness springing up causes trouble, and by it many be defiled;

There will come a time when people can discuss things without personally attacking them - when that happens then the environment will be there for "healthy" discussion and we can all benefit.

We all need each other as every one has a part to play in the body of Christ. Dis-agreement is healthy if done in the right spirit.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

Yes.....most definitely.

IMO - the problem still exists. It is a round about way of saying that "Good works keep us saved".

I believe the truth is "That by us abiding in what Christ has already done for us and relying on His life" - this will bring forth good fruit - fruit that remains - His fruit that we participate in. Without Him - we can do nothing.

It has nothing to do with our eternal destination.

In Him - we have redemption the forgiveness of sins according to the riches of His grace. Eph. 1:7

He has obtained an eternal redemption for us. Heb. 9:12

The truth is as I see it - some people believe that we lose salvation and that this salvation ( as in going to be with the Lord when we die ) is based on us. In this mindset - we "need to do things to keep ourselves saved".

It's a fruit that goes with the original premise of this type of thinking.

I believe the only thing necessary to remain saved is to see that our hearts do not become evil and unbelieving as with Israel in the desert. In other words, we can't turn back once we put our hand to the plow to plow up the stony places in our hearts. In other words, we need to KEEP trusting/abiding. From faith to faith. That's a GOOD work! Yes, it's struggle sometimes and pleading with tears for what we see we lack in trust. But that pleading alone shows that we know from where all of and any of our good comes from Him!

 

[PeterJens]

What is the flip side of the argument, once born from above you can never kill this reality?
You can live how you like, you are in the Kingdom.

The justification for this is to invent a spiritual reality above our lives that is eternal, and once
born into it can never be removed. It is going to really suck when the reality is understood you
are who you are, either in Christ or not in Christ. It is your walk that defines where you are.

Another way of saying this, is if your walk defines where you are, if you walk off the path, you
loose everything. Now those who have walked off the path and wish to entice others to do so
will always defend their cause by claiming it is those who stick closely to Jesus who are deceived
and legalistic, where as it is Jesus who said we show our love by obeying Him and following His
will and desires. And my friends, which command of Jesus is so impossible and evil that it condemns
you?

 

[Grace777x70]

I believe the only thing necessary to remain saved is to see that our hearts do not become evil and unbelieving as with Israel in the desert. In other words, we can't turn back once we put our hand to the plow to plow up the stony places in our hearts. In other words, we need to KEEP trusting/abiding. From faith to faith. That's a GOOD work! Yes, it's struggle sometimes and pleading with tears for what we see we lack in trust. But that pleading alone shows that we know from where all of and any of our good comes from Him!

The understanding of the new creation in Christ will answer all of that.

 

[stonesoffire]

The thought occurred to me today that the works of Holy Spirit do not necessarily mean correct doctrine. If one is actually doing His work, then the opportunity to teach will be accepted. Give the gospel, do the works, then disciple.

There will be no debate then.

That can't be done debating here all day, so be blessed peoples. Have enjoyed my time here.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

No EG..


You're comparing BELIEVE
and OBEY

GO!!

The word in John 3: 16 (believe) Is pistis

Go..

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

Fran has stated all good works has to come from faith in Christ and only when we abide in Him and OBEY him...(capitalized that cuz it's one of her favorite words).

She says works are necessary because she doesn't like lazy bums and is trying to get free loaders to get to work instead of saying Jesus does it all. She is big into personal responsibility and that people should own up to having the ability to choose good and bad. Its her mission to fight against licentious doctrines.

At the same time EG and Dcon have said that AFTER BEING SAVED people will produce fruit and do good works because they are saved. Not in order to maintain or keep or prove their salvation. Their mission is against legalist and those who preach a false gospel attempting to enslave people to man-made laws and traditions of works instead of faith in Jesus finished work upon the cross.

The mood of the thread changes when people feel attacked and unloved and unwanted.

I agree.

Up to your first paragraph there, where you say OBEY, I have something to say. Obey to me, is the obedience of faith. I can talk a good talk, but am I in the obedience of trust/faith? If I am, will I store treasure on earth and worry about my 401k or the economy tanking? That's where I see if my mouth can cash the voucher it's made by saying I am in the obedience of trust. And if I won't have the obedience of faith regarding an earthly matter He has commanded me on, should I expect to receive any more? He who is faithful with a little will be given more but he who is not faithful with a little, even what little he has will be taken from him. An earthly matter like money and the storing of it is little compared to trusting what He has said regarding my body being raised again in perfection. Mistrust or disregard of what He has commanded regarding money, food, drink, clothing, a roof over my head, provision - this mistrust and so not doing what He said, it's what began the whole mess, isn't it?

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

The understanding of the new creation in Christ will answer all of that.

I've heard your explanation of it and it doesn't work for me. But it works for others to look at it that way. And it's okay. I've read some men who have helped me that don't help others and I've read some men who help many others but don't help me. I take my help where I find it. If a man doesn't practically help me or increase my trust, I'm sure it won't offend him that the way he has stated it doesn't work for me. The important thing is am I growing in trust (abiding?) Am I still running that race of trust?