The Lie of the Prosperity Gospel
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Hi Denadii., There is no way to convince anyone here on CC of how God blesses us in Christ. Yes, it is met with anger (lot's of anger) There is no way to convince anyone they can be blessed and highly favored and given so much more than they ever could ask or even think in eternity and also here on earth while we wait for eternity and learn about Jesus hand in our daily lives.
That is one of the reasons I liked the thread you started about being sorry for arguing about the Bible. Arguing and allowing yourself to be dragged into arguments is what will happen when we come here until we learn how not to fall in Denadii . You just joined and don't understand yet. I've been here since 2013 and still get dragged in from time to time even though I do understand. It takes time.
There are many many who don't agree with everything you are saying (and no one will agree with you 100%) You and I are on the same page on many subjects in the Bible but not in all. You have posted a few things I don't agree with but nothing worth arguing about., or even pointing out unless we were to make a thread about it to discuss the why's and wherefores. But not worth arguing about. We should all love one another here much better than we can argue.,... But sorry to report that is not the case. People get pulled into arguments. It's the human way. The ripping words and scathing posts denigrating another believers character is what happens here all the time. Yes., it's a Christian chat site., but it's full of humans who like to argue. AND WE ALL HAVE DONE IT and still can get pulled in.
I believe in healing in the atonement and I believe God takes care of us in Christ better than we can ourselves and better than the world takes care of their own. I am one of His sheep-ettes who He takes care of so well... and know I don't deserve it. I'm not rich some would say., but others would say I'm well off. Depends on who you ask. I have all I need materially and then some.
Because God in Jesus has blessed me even in all my undeservedness., I understand some of why God has blessed many of the preachers on tv who go out into the world and reach people on such a large scale and preach His Word even though they knew they would be judged by millions for it and be under everyone's scrutiny. I understand that the world only sees in part. They don't see the inside of someone's life or heart. They don't know the struggles of the people they have judged.
Sad to say believers too who are not blessed materially., can't fathom such blessings and instead of thinking of the possibility that it is indeed God who blesses., they must believe it is NOT God but the devil since God has not showed them such blessings., and His Word says He is not a respecter of persons...so if they are not blessed it can't be God... Much like the tongues issue.
Until a believer has been impoverished in such a way that forced them to abandon years of secured tried and tested ways of living and thinking that once held them up to survive here on earth., and then allowed God to save them from their total demise here on earth., they will have a difficult time seeing or seeking the supernatural here on earth. And for those who have been in that place., we know that the others are just not seeing it yet. To argue is a pure waste of time and effort AND it plays into the devil's hands to manipulate the whole bunch of us.
The truth is God heals IN Christ and gives us ALL things pertaining to life and Godliness IN Christ. He is the Good Shepherd who CARES for the sheep. And He does it magnificently. The clear beautiful still waters of His Spirit are full of graciousness to be splashed on us should we agree to it. He won't force us to believe. He won't download it into our brains like a computer.
But the HolySpirit WILL teach us to take in the truth while we also learn to abide. He will show us HOW TO ABIDE. And while we are abiding., He maintains us better than we could ever do. He encourages us so we don't faith., And He always does it with GRACE. Because we don't deserve it. We get these things because of Jesus and all He did. When we start to learn about His grace in Titus 2:11-13 we don't try to earn the blessings or fight for the blessings among ourselves.., we allow Him to pour down His blessings so much so that we can't even contain it all. We even have to rest from all the blessings being poured on us.
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Ran out of time... the part that says " He encourages us so we do not (faith)" should read.. "so we do not FAINT" God is so gracious that He gives us blessings along the way of our learning the truths so we do not faint. I'm not the believer I used to be who thought God will only encourage me so I would not faint only when I've done well. NOOOOO that's against the whole principle of how NOT TO faint. He encourages when we need it and it's needed ALL THE TIME. Our human minds are such deep need to be renewed. (!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!) Thank JESUS He paid for this transformation!!!
AMEN!!!!
The malicious, attacking "fruit" of one in this camp with his name calling shows the gospel he is preaching has no sanctifying effect. But that isn't the design of their gospel.
The false gospel isn't for any of that, such as the sanctifying work of Christ, Hebrews 12:14, 2 Corinthians 3:18ff &c. It instead is to make them rich through their covetousness, and is to grant them miracles and health at every turn if they simply "claim it." That is their gospel message, and it is not the Gospel of Christ - thus the behavior. Notice that many of these proponents of WoF and hyper hold disdain for holiness, repentance? They are those described in 2 Timothy 3:5 perfectly - they deny the power of godliness. It isn't about holiness, it is about gain, greed, the flesh healing &c.
This is nothing less than the false gospel of 2 Peter 2:1-3. It is based in false prophesies, greed, covetousness, sensuality, and because of this false gospel many in this world blast the one true Gospel because of them.
The malicious, attacking "fruit" of one in this camp with his name calling shows the gospel he is preaching has no sanctifying effect. But that isn't the design of their gospel.
The false gospel isn't for any of that, such as the sanctifying work of Christ, Hebrews 12:14, 2 Corinthians 3:18ff &c. It instead is to make them rich through their covetousness, and is to grant them miracles and health at every turn if they simply "claim it." That is their gospel message, and it is not the Gospel of Christ - thus the behavior. Notice that many of these proponents of WoF and hyper hold disdain for holiness, repentance? They are those described in 2 Timothy 3:5 perfectly - they deny the power of godliness. It isn't about holiness, it is about gain, greed, the flesh healing &c.
This is nothing less than the false gospel of 2 Peter 2:1-3. It is based in false prophesies, greed, covetousness, sensuality, and because of this false gospel many in this world blast the one true Gospel because of them.
I don't think I ever heard any preacher like Copeland or Hinn say don't go to doctors. In fact I think I read something about Copeland having a physical done, but was so long ago, not sure if it was him. I know Benny Hinn had a heart problem. Was palpitations. He went to his doctor. But, I was watching the meeting where he himself went down under the power of God during worship and he was healed.
later he gave the testimony that the Lord told him when the song starts He would touch him.
That is the key. What saith the Lord to you to do. Not to hear what others say, but what He says.
later he gave the testimony that the Lord told him when the song starts He would touch him.
That is the key. What saith the Lord to you to do. Not to hear what others say, but what He says.
Which is why the religious call to make a commitment is just appealing to the pride of man since going forward is about him making a commitment.
This is why leaders that give those altar calls gets credit because they see him leading them all to make a commitment. They may try to deflect and give God the credit, but the altar call is given by man and received by men in any religion.
That is why we are just to preach the gospel so that faith comes by hearing... is how any one gets saved by Him. It is on His disciples to make disciples of other new believers in teaching them of Him & His promises to us so they can apply their faith in Him in being their Good Shepherd as well Whom will help them to follow Him in being His disciples & have their joy full.
This is why leaders that give those altar calls gets credit because they see him leading them all to make a commitment. They may try to deflect and give God the credit, but the altar call is given by man and received by men in any religion.
That is why we are just to preach the gospel so that faith comes by hearing... is how any one gets saved by Him. It is on His disciples to make disciples of other new believers in teaching them of Him & His promises to us so they can apply their faith in Him in being their Good Shepherd as well Whom will help them to follow Him in being His disciples & have their joy full.
All I see you are talking about is the man. That is not the same thing as talking about Jesus Christ.
All I see is you defending the man. That is not the same thing as defending the faith in Jesus Christ.
Kenneth Copeland was involved in the "holy laughter" movement, and did not speak against it when it is against the faith in Jesus Christ.
Wake up in Jesus's name. Kenneth Copeland fell in that movement because he did not build his house on the rock.
Kenneth Copeland cannot serve God and money. It is one or the other. If it was God, he would never have fallen for holy laughter.
All I see is you defending the man. That is not the same thing as defending the faith in Jesus Christ.
Kenneth Copeland was involved in the "holy laughter" movement, and did not speak against it when it is against the faith in Jesus Christ.
Wake up in Jesus's name. Kenneth Copeland fell in that movement because he did not build his house on the rock.
Kenneth Copeland cannot serve God and money. It is one or the other. If it was God, he would never have fallen for holy laughter.
So every professing poor believer and every professing sick believer are not really believers?
James 2:1My brethren, have not the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory, with respect of persons.[SUP] 2 [/SUP]For if there come unto your assembly a man with a gold ring, in goodly apparel, and there come in also a poor man in vile raiment;[SUP] 3 [/SUP]And ye have respect to him that weareth the gay clothing, and say unto him, Sit thou here in a good place; and say to the poor, Stand thou there, or sit here under my footstool:[SUP] 4 [/SUP]Are ye not then partial in yourselves, and are become judges of evil thoughts?[SUP]5 [/SUP]Hearken, my beloved brethren, Hath not God chosen the poor of this world rich in faith, and heirs of the kingdom which he hath promised to them that love him?[SUP] 6 [/SUP]But ye have despised the poor. Do not rich men oppress you, and draw you before the judgment seats?[SUP] 7 [/SUP]Do not they blaspheme that worthy name by the which ye are called?[SUP] 8 [/SUP]If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well:[SUP]9 [/SUP]But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors.
It is how you are applying His words in making those kind of judgments is why you are wrong.
James 2:1My brethren, have not the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory, with respect of persons.[SUP] 2 [/SUP]For if there come unto your assembly a man with a gold ring, in goodly apparel, and there come in also a poor man in vile raiment;[SUP] 3 [/SUP]And ye have respect to him that weareth the gay clothing, and say unto him, Sit thou here in a good place; and say to the poor, Stand thou there, or sit here under my footstool:[SUP] 4 [/SUP]Are ye not then partial in yourselves, and are become judges of evil thoughts?[SUP]5 [/SUP]Hearken, my beloved brethren, Hath not God chosen the poor of this world rich in faith, and heirs of the kingdom which he hath promised to them that love him?[SUP] 6 [/SUP]But ye have despised the poor. Do not rich men oppress you, and draw you before the judgment seats?[SUP] 7 [/SUP]Do not they blaspheme that worthy name by the which ye are called?[SUP] 8 [/SUP]If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well:[SUP]9 [/SUP]But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors.
It is how you are applying His words in making those kind of judgments is why you are wrong.
So did Paul addressed that judgment when Epaphroditus had gotten sick?
Philippians 2:[SUP]25 [/SUP]Yet I supposed it necessary to send to you Epaphroditus, my brother, and companion in labour, and fellowsoldier, but your messenger, and he that ministered to my wants.[SUP] 26 [/SUP]For he longed after you all, and was full of heaviness, because that ye had heard that he had been sick.[SUP] 27 [/SUP]For indeed he was sick nigh unto death: but God had mercy on him; and not on him only, but on me also, lest I should have sorrow upon sorrow.[SUP]28 [/SUP]I sent him therefore the more carefully, that, when ye see him again, ye may rejoice, and that I may be the less sorrowful.
Was Epaphroditus not believing in God to heal him when he had approached death door? Was Paul?
2 Timothy 4:[SUP]19 [/SUP]Salute Prisca and Aquila, and the household of Onesiphorus.[SUP] 20 [/SUP]Erastus abode at Corinth: but Trophimus have I left at Miletum sick.[SUP]21 [/SUP]Do thy diligence to come before winter. Eubulus greeteth thee, and Pudens, and Linus, and Claudia, and all the brethren.
What?!! Paul did not have enough faith in God to heal Miletum when he was sick and yet he expects due diligence to come before winter from others? Surely he expects due diligence from God to heal Miletum because it is His ministry and He needs all the people He can get in being healthy to travel and stuff!!! Does this make Paul a charlatan? No.
It just makes Kenneth Copeland's application of His words, a charlatan.
What "may" be the reasons why people get sick other than just living in this fallen world?
1 Corinthians 11:[SUP]29 [/SUP]For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.[SUP] 30 [/SUP]For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.[SUP]31 [/SUP]For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged.
Should we use that reference to set up a standard of judgment that every believer who gets sick are eating and drinking at communion are doing so in an unworthy manner? No, for then why would Epaphroditus & Miletum get off when they got sick? Why didn't Paul rebuke them by saying they were not eating & drinking at communion in a worthy manner is why they were sick?
So your judgment that the sick are still sick because they did not believe God would heal them is unjust. The same goes for your judgment that the poor are still poor when God did not prosper them because they did not really believe.
How easy for Kenneth Copeland to put everybody down when they gave everything they had to the ministry in the hopes of financial prosperity but it did not come. They had faith... they gave the works to prove that faith... that God would prosper them... and it did not happen, and so you would say what? They did not really believe God would prosper them.
How insulting & provocative that would be when they had the works of giving everything they had to the ministry and yet you say they did not really believe God would prosper them when prosperity never came?
Kenneth Copeland is a charlatan who lacks faith in God to provide by raising up cheerful givers when he depended on tempting believers to covet after riches from God by giving to his ministry. That is him loving money more than God.
Philippians 2:[SUP]25 [/SUP]Yet I supposed it necessary to send to you Epaphroditus, my brother, and companion in labour, and fellowsoldier, but your messenger, and he that ministered to my wants.[SUP] 26 [/SUP]For he longed after you all, and was full of heaviness, because that ye had heard that he had been sick.[SUP] 27 [/SUP]For indeed he was sick nigh unto death: but God had mercy on him; and not on him only, but on me also, lest I should have sorrow upon sorrow.[SUP]28 [/SUP]I sent him therefore the more carefully, that, when ye see him again, ye may rejoice, and that I may be the less sorrowful.
Was Epaphroditus not believing in God to heal him when he had approached death door? Was Paul?
2 Timothy 4:[SUP]19 [/SUP]Salute Prisca and Aquila, and the household of Onesiphorus.[SUP] 20 [/SUP]Erastus abode at Corinth: but Trophimus have I left at Miletum sick.[SUP]21 [/SUP]Do thy diligence to come before winter. Eubulus greeteth thee, and Pudens, and Linus, and Claudia, and all the brethren.
What?!! Paul did not have enough faith in God to heal Miletum when he was sick and yet he expects due diligence to come before winter from others? Surely he expects due diligence from God to heal Miletum because it is His ministry and He needs all the people He can get in being healthy to travel and stuff!!! Does this make Paul a charlatan? No.
It just makes Kenneth Copeland's application of His words, a charlatan.
What "may" be the reasons why people get sick other than just living in this fallen world?
1 Corinthians 11:[SUP]29 [/SUP]For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.[SUP] 30 [/SUP]For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.[SUP]31 [/SUP]For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged.
Should we use that reference to set up a standard of judgment that every believer who gets sick are eating and drinking at communion are doing so in an unworthy manner? No, for then why would Epaphroditus & Miletum get off when they got sick? Why didn't Paul rebuke them by saying they were not eating & drinking at communion in a worthy manner is why they were sick?
So your judgment that the sick are still sick because they did not believe God would heal them is unjust. The same goes for your judgment that the poor are still poor when God did not prosper them because they did not really believe.
How easy for Kenneth Copeland to put everybody down when they gave everything they had to the ministry in the hopes of financial prosperity but it did not come. They had faith... they gave the works to prove that faith... that God would prosper them... and it did not happen, and so you would say what? They did not really believe God would prosper them.
How insulting & provocative that would be when they had the works of giving everything they had to the ministry and yet you say they did not really believe God would prosper them when prosperity never came?
Kenneth Copeland is a charlatan who lacks faith in God to provide by raising up cheerful givers when he depended on tempting believers to covet after riches from God by giving to his ministry. That is him loving money more than God.
P
Thank you for your answer.
I must disagree. I do not believe it acceptable to become a multi-millionaire doing the Lord's work no matter how much they give to others. It is obvious they could live a simpler lifestyle and give more.
While you criticize others as judging these multi-millionaires, you judge us by inferring the we do little or nothing.
As I stated before, you have no idea what this small local church that I serve does.
And by the way, I receive zero pay for my service. I do manual labor to support my family and give 30% of my income to the ministry of this church.
I must disagree. I do not believe it acceptable to become a multi-millionaire doing the Lord's work no matter how much they give to others. It is obvious they could live a simpler lifestyle and give more.
While you criticize others as judging these multi-millionaires, you judge us by inferring the we do little or nothing.
As I stated before, you have no idea what this small local church that I serve does.
And by the way, I receive zero pay for my service. I do manual labor to support my family and give 30% of my income to the ministry of this church.
You are right of course Joaniemarie. I just hate it though, that if you do not believe ALL of Gods Word you believe NONE of it. That makes these people Non Christians. They know of Jesus but they do not know Jesus. That really bothers me. It gives me a real feeling of dread for them who will hear the words "Depart from me you workers of iniquity...."
You are really funny my friend. You hate those who believe the gospel. Yet you whine when somebody says something that you disagree with. Do you know what they call that? If you know the Word even a little bit, you know that the Word, our God, is of absolutes. There are NO grey areas. Its right or its wrong. There is no "kinda wrong or kinda right" There are no grey areas. Its sin or its not. There are no degrees.. There are no grey areas. You believe or you do not. Prosperity is ALL THROUGH the bible from Genesis to Revelation. If you do not believe that, then you do not believe at all. If that offends you, I suggest you open a bible and read it and choose to believe it.