Faith and Salvation
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It sounds like Romans 2:12-16 is telling us that those who haven't heard about Christ can be saved by their actions and what is in their heart. I don't think those who reject God and His Son will fare as well.
Romans 2:12-16 [FONT="]12 All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law.[/FONT][FONT="] [/FONT][FONT="]13 For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous.[/FONT][FONT="] [/FONT][FONT="]14 (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law.[/FONT][FONT="] [/FONT][FONT="]15 They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.)[/FONT][FONT="] [/FONT][FONT="]16 This will take place on the day when God judges people’s secrets through Jesus Christ,as my gospel declares.[/FONT]
Romans 2:12-16 [FONT="]12 All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law.[/FONT][FONT="] [/FONT][FONT="]13 For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous.[/FONT][FONT="] [/FONT][FONT="]14 (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law.[/FONT][FONT="] [/FONT][FONT="]15 They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.)[/FONT][FONT="] [/FONT][FONT="]16 This will take place on the day when God judges people’s secrets through Jesus Christ,as my gospel declares.[/FONT]
Matthew 5:17-19 17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.19 Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
This last verse tells us we need to try to follow the law. Jesus has freed us from condemnation of the law if we are trying to follow it, but not if we reject it. The ones we don't know about will not be held against us, the same as Jesus' sins when he was too young to know better. Isaiah 7:14-16 14 Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign: The virgin will conceive and give birth to a son, and will call him Immanuel.15 He will be eating curds and honey when he knows enough to reject the wrong and choose the right,16 for before the boy knows enough to reject the wrong and choose the right, the land of the two kings you dread will be laid waste.
The works spoken of in your verse 24 are works of faith not works of law.
This last verse tells us we need to try to follow the law. Jesus has freed us from condemnation of the law if we are trying to follow it, but not if we reject it. The ones we don't know about will not be held against us, the same as Jesus' sins when he was too young to know better. Isaiah 7:14-16 14 Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign: The virgin will conceive and give birth to a son, and will call him Immanuel.15 He will be eating curds and honey when he knows enough to reject the wrong and choose the right,16 for before the boy knows enough to reject the wrong and choose the right, the land of the two kings you dread will be laid waste.
The works spoken of in your verse 24 are works of faith not works of law.
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Your argument is barren of any logic.
James writes, "You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not faith alone. (James 2:24 NIV) and this means what to you??
This simple sentence is not worded to imply "proof" is needed but "actions" are needed.
The sentence states "by what they do".
They are considered righteous by what they do. By their actions they are considered righteous. They are not doing the actions to prove they are righteous but instead to be considered righteous.
A soldier must do something heroic to be get a Medal of Honor. The medal is "proof" but it was the act of heroism that gave him the medal. The soldier is still heroic without the medal but not without the act.
How can something so simple not be understood is beyond me.
"Does some stupid person want proof that faith without works is useless?" James 2:20 CEV
Sometimes even proof is not enough.
James writes, "You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not faith alone. (James 2:24 NIV) and this means what to you??
This simple sentence is not worded to imply "proof" is needed but "actions" are needed.
The sentence states "by what they do".
They are considered righteous by what they do. By their actions they are considered righteous. They are not doing the actions to prove they are righteous but instead to be considered righteous.
A soldier must do something heroic to be get a Medal of Honor. The medal is "proof" but it was the act of heroism that gave him the medal. The soldier is still heroic without the medal but not without the act.
How can something so simple not be understood is beyond me.
"Does some stupid person want proof that faith without works is useless?" James 2:20 CEV
Sometimes even proof is not enough.
It is not what we "think" it means but what Scripture reveals as its meaning. So we need to see what the Bible has to say.
Strong's Concordance
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: pisteuó
Phonetic Spelling: (pist-yoo'-o)
Short Definition: I believe, have faith in
Definition: I believe, have faith in, trust in; pass: I am entrusted with.
HELPS Word-studies
4100 pisteúō (from 4102 /pístis, "faith," derived from3982 /peíthō, "persuade, be persuaded") – believe(affirm, have confidence); used of persuading oneself (= human believing) and with the sacred significance of being persuaded by the Lord (= faith-believing). Only the context indicates whether 4100 /pisteúō ("believe") is self-serving (without sacred meaning), or the believing that leads to/proceeds from God's inbirthing of faith.
Thayer's Greek Lexicon
STRONGS NT 4100: πιστεύω
πιστεύω; imperfect ἐπίστευον; futureπιστεύσω; 1 aorist ἐπίστευσα; perfectπεπίστευκα; pluperfect (without augment, cf.Winers Grammar, § 12, 9; (Buttmann, 33 (29)))πεπιστεύκειν (Acts 14:23); passive perfectπεπίστευμαι; 1 aorist ἐπιστεύθην; (πιστός); the Sept. for הֶאֱמִין; in classical Greek from Aeschyl,Sophocles, Euripides, Thucydides down; to believe, i. e.
1. intransitive, to think to be true; to be persuaded of; to credit, place confidence in;
b. specifically, in a moral and religious reference,πιστεύειν is used in the N. T. of "the conviction and trust to which a man is impelled by a certain inner and higher prerogative and law of his soul"; thus it standsα. absolutely to trust in Jesus or in God as able to aid either in obtaining or in doing something: Matthew 8:13;Matthew 21:22; Mark 5:36; Mark 9:23; Luke 8:50; John 11:40; followed by ὅτι, Matthew 9:28; Mark 11:23; (Hebrews 11:6); τῷ λόγῳ, ᾧ (ὅν) εἶπεν ὁἸησοῦς, John 4:50.
So saving faith is absolutely to (1) believe God (and by extension all that He has revealed in His Word), (2) trust God, (3) believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and His finished work of redemption, and (4) be fully persuaded that what God has promised He will perform, particularly in regards to salvation by grace through faith.
Someone has stated in this thread that we must have "the faith of Christ". Well since Christ is God, He has faith in Himself. But that is not saving faith. He commands sinners (and saints) to have faith in Him and has given His written Word to us to generate faith. Thus faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God (Rom 10:17). But the Word of God does not operate on hearts and minds and lives isolated from God the Holy Spirit (Heb 4:12,13). When the Gospel is preached, or heard, or read, or remember, it is the Holy Spirit who convicts us as sinners in need of the Savior, and convinces us that the record which God has given to us of His Son is absolutely true.
And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life. These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God. (1 John 5:11-13).
Strong's Concordance
pisteuó: to believe, entrust
Original Word: πιστεύωPart of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: pisteuó
Phonetic Spelling: (pist-yoo'-o)
Short Definition: I believe, have faith in
Definition: I believe, have faith in, trust in; pass: I am entrusted with.
HELPS Word-studies
4100 pisteúō (from 4102 /pístis, "faith," derived from3982 /peíthō, "persuade, be persuaded") – believe(affirm, have confidence); used of persuading oneself (= human believing) and with the sacred significance of being persuaded by the Lord (= faith-believing). Only the context indicates whether 4100 /pisteúō ("believe") is self-serving (without sacred meaning), or the believing that leads to/proceeds from God's inbirthing of faith.
Thayer's Greek Lexicon
STRONGS NT 4100: πιστεύω
πιστεύω; imperfect ἐπίστευον; futureπιστεύσω; 1 aorist ἐπίστευσα; perfectπεπίστευκα; pluperfect (without augment, cf.Winers Grammar, § 12, 9; (Buttmann, 33 (29)))πεπιστεύκειν (Acts 14:23); passive perfectπεπίστευμαι; 1 aorist ἐπιστεύθην; (πιστός); the Sept. for הֶאֱמִין; in classical Greek from Aeschyl,Sophocles, Euripides, Thucydides down; to believe, i. e.
1. intransitive, to think to be true; to be persuaded of; to credit, place confidence in;
b. specifically, in a moral and religious reference,πιστεύειν is used in the N. T. of "the conviction and trust to which a man is impelled by a certain inner and higher prerogative and law of his soul"; thus it standsα. absolutely to trust in Jesus or in God as able to aid either in obtaining or in doing something: Matthew 8:13;Matthew 21:22; Mark 5:36; Mark 9:23; Luke 8:50; John 11:40; followed by ὅτι, Matthew 9:28; Mark 11:23; (Hebrews 11:6); τῷ λόγῳ, ᾧ (ὅν) εἶπεν ὁἸησοῦς, John 4:50.
So saving faith is absolutely to (1) believe God (and by extension all that He has revealed in His Word), (2) trust God, (3) believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and His finished work of redemption, and (4) be fully persuaded that what God has promised He will perform, particularly in regards to salvation by grace through faith.
Someone has stated in this thread that we must have "the faith of Christ". Well since Christ is God, He has faith in Himself. But that is not saving faith. He commands sinners (and saints) to have faith in Him and has given His written Word to us to generate faith. Thus faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God (Rom 10:17). But the Word of God does not operate on hearts and minds and lives isolated from God the Holy Spirit (Heb 4:12,13). When the Gospel is preached, or heard, or read, or remember, it is the Holy Spirit who convicts us as sinners in need of the Savior, and convinces us that the record which God has given to us of His Son is absolutely true.
And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life. These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God. (1 John 5:11-13).
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Your argument is based on faulty human logic. You need to properly harmonize scripture with scripture.
"Considered" righteous is not the same as "accounted" as righteous. *In James 2:21, notice closely that James does not say that Abraham's work of offering up Isaac resulted in God accounting Abraham as righteous. The accounting of Abraham's faith as righteousness was made in Genesis 15:6, many years before his work of offering up Isaac on the altar recorded in Genesis 22.
The work of Abraham did not have some kind of intrinsic merit to save him, but it proved or manifested the genuineness of his faith. *This is the sense in which Abraham was justified by works, "shown to be righteous."
Compare Romans 4:2 - "For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God" NOT JUSTIFIED BY WORKS with James 2:21, "Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered his son Isaac on the altar?" Paul and James do not contradict each other. They are just describing genuine faith from two different perspectives.
The harmony of Romans 4:2-3 and James 2:21-24 is seen in the differing ways that Paul and James use the term "justified." Paul, when he uses the term, refers to the legal (judicial) act of God by which He accounts the sinner righteous. James, however is using the term to describe those who would prove the genuineness of their faith by the works that they do.
In the Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, the Greek word for justified "dikaioo" #1344 is:
1. to render righteous or such he ought to be
2. to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered
3. to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be
God is said to have been justified by those who were baptized by John the Baptist (Luke 7:29). This act pronounced or declared God to be righteous. It did not make him righteous. The basis or ground for the pronouncement was the fact that God IS righteous. Notice that the NIV reads, "acknowledged that God's way was right.." The ESV reads, "they declared God just.." This is the sense in which God was justified, "shown to be righteous" not accounted as righteous.
In Matthew 12:37, "For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned." This is because our words (and works) reveal the state of our hearts. Words and works will be evidences for, or against a man being in a state of grace and righteousness.
Matthew 11:19 "The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, 'Behold, a gluttonous man and a drunkard, a friend of tax-gatherers and sinners!' Yet wisdom is justified/vindicated/shown to be right by her deeds."
Actions are the proof. Says-claims to have faith but has no works (to back up his claim). Where is the evidence?
We show our faith by our works (James 2:18). Again, "considered righteous" (James 2:21) is not the same as "accounted as righteous" (Romans 4:2-3). Abraham was accounted as righteous BECAUSE OF HIS FAITH in Genesis 15:6 many years before he offered up Isaac on the altar in Genesis 22 and was "considered" or "shown to be righteous." *Hermeneutics.
I harmonize scripture with scripture to prove my point, yet you resort to faulty human logic.
It is through faith "in Christ alone" (and not by the merits of our works) that we are justified on account of Christ (Romans 3:24-28; 4:2-6; 5:1); yet the faith that justifies is never alone (solitary, unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine (James 2:14-24). *Perfect Harmony.* SIMPLE!
Faith that lacks evidential works (produces no works at all) is not genuine faith, but is an empty profession of faith/dead faith. James is not teaching that we are saved by works, yet works are the fruit, by product and demonstrative evidence of genuine faith.
Your faulty human logic is not proof of anything.
"Considered" righteous is not the same as "accounted" as righteous. *In James 2:21, notice closely that James does not say that Abraham's work of offering up Isaac resulted in God accounting Abraham as righteous. The accounting of Abraham's faith as righteousness was made in Genesis 15:6, many years before his work of offering up Isaac on the altar recorded in Genesis 22.
The work of Abraham did not have some kind of intrinsic merit to save him, but it proved or manifested the genuineness of his faith. *This is the sense in which Abraham was justified by works, "shown to be righteous."
Compare Romans 4:2 - "For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God" NOT JUSTIFIED BY WORKS with James 2:21, "Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered his son Isaac on the altar?" Paul and James do not contradict each other. They are just describing genuine faith from two different perspectives.
The harmony of Romans 4:2-3 and James 2:21-24 is seen in the differing ways that Paul and James use the term "justified." Paul, when he uses the term, refers to the legal (judicial) act of God by which He accounts the sinner righteous. James, however is using the term to describe those who would prove the genuineness of their faith by the works that they do.
In the Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, the Greek word for justified "dikaioo" #1344 is:
1. to render righteous or such he ought to be
2. to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered
3. to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be
God is said to have been justified by those who were baptized by John the Baptist (Luke 7:29). This act pronounced or declared God to be righteous. It did not make him righteous. The basis or ground for the pronouncement was the fact that God IS righteous. Notice that the NIV reads, "acknowledged that God's way was right.." The ESV reads, "they declared God just.." This is the sense in which God was justified, "shown to be righteous" not accounted as righteous.
In Matthew 12:37, "For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned." This is because our words (and works) reveal the state of our hearts. Words and works will be evidences for, or against a man being in a state of grace and righteousness.
Matthew 11:19 "The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, 'Behold, a gluttonous man and a drunkard, a friend of tax-gatherers and sinners!' Yet wisdom is justified/vindicated/shown to be right by her deeds."
Actions are the proof. Says-claims to have faith but has no works (to back up his claim). Where is the evidence?
We show our faith by our works (James 2:18). Again, "considered righteous" (James 2:21) is not the same as "accounted as righteous" (Romans 4:2-3). Abraham was accounted as righteous BECAUSE OF HIS FAITH in Genesis 15:6 many years before he offered up Isaac on the altar in Genesis 22 and was "considered" or "shown to be righteous." *Hermeneutics.
I harmonize scripture with scripture to prove my point, yet you resort to faulty human logic.
It is through faith "in Christ alone" (and not by the merits of our works) that we are justified on account of Christ (Romans 3:24-28; 4:2-6; 5:1); yet the faith that justifies is never alone (solitary, unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine (James 2:14-24). *Perfect Harmony.* SIMPLE!
Faith that lacks evidential works (produces no works at all) is not genuine faith, but is an empty profession of faith/dead faith. James is not teaching that we are saved by works, yet works are the fruit, by product and demonstrative evidence of genuine faith.
Your faulty human logic is not proof of anything.
For someone to accept this twisted view of James 2:24 they must ignore normal reasoning and replace it with a complex set of mental gymnastics to reach such a obviously warped conclusion.
"You see then that it is by a student's test scores that they are advanced to the next grade and not by their study habits alone."
No one would read the above sentence and conclude that testing was not needed since grades were only proof that the student must have studied. That would be absurd and a classic example of circular reasoning.
"You must have studied for the test because you passed the test. Therefore you do not need to take the test."
Wait. Wait. Let me guess this too is but faulty human logic or a straw man because your superior Holy Spirit discernment told you so.
You seem very sincere but there is no virtue in holding onto a flawed train of thought. The "trust only" theology is a wreck waiting to happen.
"You see then that it is by a student's test scores that they are advanced to the next grade and not by their study habits alone."
No one would read the above sentence and conclude that testing was not needed since grades were only proof that the student must have studied. That would be absurd and a classic example of circular reasoning.
"You must have studied for the test because you passed the test. Therefore you do not need to take the test."
Wait. Wait. Let me guess this too is but faulty human logic or a straw man because your superior Holy Spirit discernment told you so.
You seem very sincere but there is no virtue in holding onto a flawed train of thought. The "trust only" theology is a wreck waiting to happen.
Abraham was blessed (rewarded) before his obedience, much the same as King Saul. If Abraham would have followed the example of King Saul (disobeyed) he would have been replaced as was King Saul and Genesis 22:18 would never have been written of him. Genesis 22 is the fulfillment of the promise not just God's but Abraham's as well.
"all nations on earth will be blessed because you have obeyed me."
God seeks out those who will obey Him and takes away His blessings to those who fail to obey. Like it or not this is the flow and form of the entire Bible.
"all nations on earth will be blessed because you have obeyed me."
God seeks out those who will obey Him and takes away His blessings to those who fail to obey. Like it or not this is the flow and form of the entire Bible.
can you expound a little more on that my friend.