Revelation 12 Sign: September 23,2017

[heartofdavid]

No . Categorically no.

The GT is an invention of Futurism. No such expression in Greek as Angela has taught you already

I posted the verses that SHOULD set historicists free.

You have no traction whatsoever. The Greek has been posted.

Angela has her prejudices and spins the verses to fit historical doctrine. As do all historicists.

"Tribulation (or insert your favorite synonym) such as THE WORLD has never seen...."

Ad 70 was tiny and local.

Check Jesus' reference to the flood.

Hint : Worldwide

BTW,I do realize you guys modify " world".

Hello? You guys actually prove yourselves wrong everytime you modify to fit

 

[heartofdavid]

the Church isn't mentioned...ever again...

Yep

But look at the spin that gets thrown into that fact

 

[heartofdavid]

It means that Jerusalem will be under the control of foreign nations, and in that period it will kept desolate, until that period comes to an end.

That period really pertains to Daniel's prophecies.

Assuming that that period has a specific prophetic endpoint, then it will usher Christ's return, but not necessarily immediately.

well,then when is "Jacobs trouble"

Yet another historicist dilemma. You have Jacobs trouble preceding the time of the gentiles

 

[LoveGodForever]

before this rev 12 signs became famous...it is always interpreted that the church is the bride....not the male child. rev 12 is identifying the woman.. who is this woman;-by the way this woman has male child who now is in the throne in heaven- her children are those who keep the commandments of God; (to whom God gave the commandment) yes it was Israel. but also as part of her children are those who keep the testimony of Jesus Christ. (believers) however to put the moon under her feet is a diffetent thing. it os a great sign in heaven....

God's Word says that the woman of Revelations 12 is not the bride it is the wife who is pregnant with Child.

The woman in God's Word is symbolic of God's (Church) People; either faithful or unfaithful (Jeremiah 6:2; Isaiah 62:5; Isaiah 61:10; Proverbs 12:4; Eze 23; Hosea 5:4; Hosea 4:12; Jeremiah 13:27; 2 Kings 9:22; Psalm 106:39; Ezekiel 23:3-19; Hosea 4:15; Hosea 9:1; Isaiah 1:21; Jeremiah 2:20; Jeremiah 3:6; Jeremiah 3:8; 2 Chronicles 21:11; 2 Chronicles 21:13; Numbers 15:39; Jeremiah 3:2; Jeremiah 13:22; Ezekiel 23:11; Ezekiel 23:8; Ezekiel 23:14 ; Ezekiel 23:35; Ezekiel 23:29; Ezekiel 43:7; Hosea 6:10; Hosea 5:3 ; Ezekiel 23:30; Ezekiel 23:17; Ezekiel 23:19; Ezekiel 23:27; Ezekiel 43:9 etc etc)

1. The woman = God's people who are the believers and followers of God's Word (not literal Israel the nation)
Galatians 3:28-29; Colossians 3:11; Romans 10:11-13; Romans 2:28-29; Jeremiah 31:33-4; Hebrews 8:10-12; Hebrews 10:14-17; Galatians 3:29

2. The woman representing God's people were clothed with the sun = righteousness (But for you who revere my name, the sun of righteousness will rise with healing in its rays. And you will go out and frolic like well-fed calves. Mal 4:2; purity and fair; My dove, my undefiled is but one; she is the only one of her mother, she is the choice one of her that bare her. The daughters saw her, and blessed her; yea, the queens and the concubines, and they praised her. Who is she that looketh forth as the morning, fair as the moon, clear as the sun, and terrible as an army with banners? Song of Solomon 6:9-10)

In here crown was 12 stars = the 12 tribes of Israel (God's People; Genesis 37:9; Ex 32:13; Genesis 24:6; Deut 1:10; 1Chron 27:33 etc)

The woman here represents God's people clothed in righteousness and purity. The 12 Stars in the crown representing the 12 tribes of Israel (God's People)

GODS PEOPLE ISRAEL WHO ARE THEY?

The new covenant is also given to "Israel". Today the "Believers" in God's Word are God's people and are spiritual "Israel" not the nation of Israel. How can an "Unbeliever" be God's people? Israel" is only a name given by God himself to represent his people. It has its origin from Gen 32:28 where Jacob wrestled with the Angel and prevailed ...for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed. Its meaning is his posterity will rule as God. Jacob had 12 sons representing the 12 tribes of Israel. This is God's people and today anyone the is following Jesus is part of God's spiritual Israel according to God's Word. The same New Covenant is written for God's people who are now spiritual Israel following God.

Scripture support;

Galatians 3:28-29,
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Colossians 3:11,
Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.

Romans 10:11-13,
For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Romans 2:28-29,
For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Jeremiah 31:33-4,
But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, says the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, says the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

Hebrews 8:10-12,
For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people: And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest. For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.

Hebrews 10:14-17,
For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified. Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before, this is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, says the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them; and their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.

Galatians 3:29,
And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise

* Israel is God's name given to his people that believe and follow the Word of God. It is not the literal nation of Israel.

Romans 9:6-8
6, ¶ Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: 7, Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. 8, That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

There will be signs before the end but who are the signs from?

Matthew 24:24,
For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

Matthew 24:35-37
35, Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away. 36, But of that day and hour knows no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. 37, But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Time will tell the difference. However be sure of one thing. God's judgements have only ever come to mankind from Genesis to Revelations because of sin which is the transgression of God's Law (10 commandments) If we break one of God's commandments we stand guilty before God as sinners and are in danger of the judgments. This also includes God's 7th Day Sabbath which is one of the 10. As it was in the days of Noah and Sodom so shall the coming of the son of man be.

Seek ye the LORD while he may be found, call ye upon him while he is near: Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon

In Christ Always!

 

[J7]

You simply have a poor grasp of scripture HoD. I'm sorry, but it is true.

21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

I posted the verses that SHOULD set historicists free.

You have no traction whatsoever. The Greek has been posted.

Angela has her prejudices and spins the verses to fit historical doctrine. As do all historicists.

"Tribulation (or insert your favorite synonym) such as THE WORLD has never seen...."

Ad 70 was tiny and local.

Check Jesus' reference to the flood.

Hint : Worldwide

BTW,I do realize you guys modify " world".

Hello? You guys actually prove yourselves wrong everytime you modify to fit

 

[Enow]

Read the parable of the wedding feast.

It tells you a second group is gathered almost immediately.

Seven year great tribulation will seem like immediately.

Study the martyrdom component. Their reward is one of high honor. In fact,it is those martyred ones( possibly billions) that make up the innumerable number.
Hint; they had dirty robes

In Revelation 18th chapter describing the fall of Babylon that the second angel herald after the first one with the everlasting gospel and before the 3rd one warning every one of the dire consequence for taking the mark of the beast to buy & sell will go to the lake of fire in setting up the hour of temptation that shall try all on the earth that gets left behind after the pre trib rapture event......

.....in that fall of Babylon event after the pre trib rapture... the voice of the bride & the Bridegroom will no longer be heard in her any more because the pre trib rapture has come and gone... and saints left behind are being made to rest from their labors as their works will follow them into the dusts.

So yes, they will be harvested... but not to attend the wedding feast; if you are referring to Luke 14:15-24, then you know that those whom had excused themselves from the Supper for the cares of this life are not going to get to sit at that table.

That is why Jesus warned believers in Luke 21:33-36 to pray that they may be worthy to escape because the cares of this life can be a snare to keep the hearts of saved believers to this life on earth rather than be with the Bridegroom above out of ignorance.

So I am praying that not only is He keeping me abiding in Him as His disciple but keeping me willing to go when He comes which can happen at any moment as He did say He will come like a thief in the night..... so that really means no one can know the day nor the hour.

 

[Ahwatukee]

Morning LoveGodForever,

1. The woman = God's people who are the believers and followers of God's Word (not literal Israel the nation)

Actually, the woman of Revelation 12 is indeed symbolic representing literal Israel. We have to allow scripture to interpret the symbols that God uses. Here in Rev.12 the woman is clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and wearing a crown of twelve stars. Therefore we need to find out what these represent:

"Then he had another dream, and he told it to his brothers. “Listen,” he said, “I had another dream, and this time the sun and moon and eleven stars were bowing down to me.”
When he told his father as well as his brothers, his father rebuked him and said, “What is this dream you had? Will your mother and I and your brothers actually come and bow down to the ground before you?”

Sun = Jacob
Moon = wife/wives
Eleven Stars = Eleven of the twelve tribes and Joseph makes twelve

The woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and wearing a crown of twelve stars = the nation Israel

So in Rev.12, the woman/Israel gives birth to a son and then she flees out into the desert, being pursued by the dragon/Satan, where she will be cared for 1260 days, which is that last 3 1/2 years, also mentioned in verse 14.

The church is nowhere mentioned in Rev.12 nor anywhere after the end of chapter 3. Also, the church could not be in view in Rev.12 because that would put the church as being exposed to majority of God's wrath, which we are not appointed to suffer and which Jesus rescues believers from. The church must be gathered prior to the first seal being opened, which initiates God's wrath.

 

[iamsoandso]

Morning iamsoandso,

Besides the seven heads symbolically representing seven hills upon which the woman sits, the seven heads also represent a succession of seven kings. The first five had come and gone, king number six was ruling and king number seven had not yet come. The ten horns are ten future kings who will rule concurrently with the beast. The ten kings will not just rule over Jerusalem, but over the entire earth giving all of their power to the beast. It appears that the earth will be divided into ten regions with each king ruling over a region, with the beast ruling above them.

Good morning,,

In Revelation 17;7 the angel states that he would tell him the mystery of the "woman" in Revelation 17:18 the "woman" is ruling over the kings of the earth present tense Revelation 17 Interlinear Bible only the ones spoken of "future tense" would it seems come afterward.

 

[Ahwatukee]

Good morning,,

In Revelation 17;7 the angel states that he would tell him the mystery of the "woman" in Revelation 17:18 the "woman" is ruling over the kings of the earth present tense Revelation 17 Interlinear Bible only the ones spoken of "future tense" would it seems come afterward.

No, John is speaking from the time frame of the vision. He does this throughout Revelation. The seven kings could not be future, because John said, "five have fallen" past tense. One is, means that king number six was ruling as he was speaking.

 

[J7]

well,then when is "Jacobs trouble"

Yet another historicist dilemma. You have Jacobs trouble preceding the time of the gentiles

It refers to the day that Babylon took Judah captive. The reference to loins is because many men had their tackle chopped off by the Babylonians

 

[Jackson123]

But this is interesting.

[SUP]27[/SUP] And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured (nathak) upon the desolate.

So let's go back to verse 11

11 Yea, all Israel have transgressed thy law, even by departing, that they might not obey thy voice; therefore the curse is poured upon us, and the oath that is written in the law of Moses the servant of God, because we have sinned against him.

As we see in V11, what is being poured out is the curse, and the sevenfold punishment.

So we can see that at the desolation, (AD70), even though the first punishment had not yet finished (until the consummation), a sevenfold increment is now imposed. The first desolation of Jerusalem was 70 years, 588BC to 518BC, so now 490 years (70 X 7) are imposed.

But there is also a fourfold restitution involved,

Luke 19:8 And Zacchaeus stood, and said unto the Lord: Behold, Lord, the half of my goods I give to the poor; and if I have taken any thing from any man by false accusation, I restore him fourfold.

Jerusalem took Christ's life by false accusation, (and put themselves under a curse).

Therefore 490 X 4 = 1960

1960 years from AD 70 leads to 2030

why x4 what is 4 come from?

 

[iamsoandso]

No, John is speaking from the time frame of the vision. He does this throughout Revelation. The seven kings could not be future, because John said, "five have fallen" past tense. One is, means that king number six was ruling as he was speaking.

In Revelation 12:3 the red dragon with 7 heads and ten horns,is it the same as the scarlet colored beast in Revelation 17:3 ? If so from Revelation 12:7 he was cast out of heaven and into the earth,Revelation 12:12. Again in Revelation 17:8 the beast that is in the pit that ascends out of it are they the same or are they different one is coming(cast) down from heaven and the other comes up(rises) from the pit ?

 

[watcher2013]

I am coming from a bride/bridegroom perspective.

As with the parable of the wedding supper,we see three groups eligible. Two are gathered.

The rapture is pretrib. That is proven easily.

In that group where you say the church is " missing" the dead in Christ are also " missing". They are there,but not in those with dirty robes.

BTW,the dead are gathered first in 1thes 4

dead in christ (they are there) their robes are washed and made white by the blood of the lamb? who is the lamb?
now the question is what is the tribulation here?
please note the Jacobs trouble is Jacobs trouble not Sam trouble.

If you refer your Jacobs trouble as the great tribulation then...your are referring only to the Israel trouble...

these in whitw robes are from other Nations and languages... so this is not your Jacobs trouble.

 

[watcher2013]

God's Word says that the woman of Revelations 12 is not the bride it is the wife who is pregnant with Child.

The woman in God's Word is symbolic of God's (Church) People; either faithful or unfaithful (Jeremiah 6:2; Isaiah 62:5; Isaiah 61:10; Proverbs 12:4; Eze 23; Hosea 5:4; Hosea 4:12; Jeremiah 13:27; 2 Kings 9:22; Psalm 106:39; Ezekiel 23:3-19; Hosea 4:15; Hosea 9:1; Isaiah 1:21; Jeremiah 2:20; Jeremiah 3:6; Jeremiah 3:8; 2 Chronicles 21:11; 2 Chronicles 21:13; Numbers 15:39; Jeremiah 3:2; Jeremiah 13:22; Ezekiel 23:11; Ezekiel 23:8; Ezekiel 23:14 ; Ezekiel 23:35; Ezekiel 23:29; Ezekiel 43:7; Hosea 6:10; Hosea 5:3 ; Ezekiel 23:30; Ezekiel 23:17; Ezekiel 23:19; Ezekiel 23:27; Ezekiel 43:9 etc etc)

1. The woman = God's people who are the believers and followers of God's Word (not literal Israel the nation)
Galatians 3:28-29; Colossians 3:11; Romans 10:11-13; Romans 2:28-29; Jeremiah 31:33-4; Hebrews 8:10-12; Hebrews 10:14-17; Galatians 3:29

2. The woman representing God's people were clothed with the sun = righteousness (But for you who revere my name, the sun of righteousness will rise with healing in its rays. And you will go out and frolic like well-fed calves. Mal 4:2; purity and fair; My dove, my undefiled is but one; she is the only one of her mother, she is the choice one of her that bare her. The daughters saw her, and blessed her; yea, the queens and the concubines, and they praised her. Who is she that looketh forth as the morning, fair as the moon, clear as the sun, and terrible as an army with banners? Song of Solomon 6:9-10)

In here crown was 12 stars = the 12 tribes of Israel (God's People; Genesis 37:9; Ex 32:13; Genesis 24:6; Deut 1:10; 1Chron 27:33 etc)

The woman here represents God's people clothed in righteousness and purity. The 12 Stars in the crown representing the 12 tribes of Israel (God's People)

GODS PEOPLE ISRAEL WHO ARE THEY?

The new covenant is also given to "Israel". Today the "Believers" in God's Word are God's people and are spiritual "Israel" not the nation of Israel. How can an "Unbeliever" be God's people? Israel" is only a name given by God himself to represent his people. It has its origin from Gen 32:28 where Jacob wrestled with the Angel and prevailed ...for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed. Its meaning is his posterity will rule as God. Jacob had 12 sons representing the 12 tribes of Israel. This is God's people and today anyone the is following Jesus is part of God's spiritual Israel according to God's Word. The same New Covenant is written for God's people who are now spiritual Israel following God.

Scripture support;

Galatians 3:28-29,
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Colossians 3:11,
Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.

Romans 10:11-13,
For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Romans 2:28-29,
For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Jeremiah 31:33-4,
But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, says the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, says the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

Hebrews 8:10-12,
For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people: And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest. For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.

Hebrews 10:14-17,
For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified. Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before, this is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, says the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them; and their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.

Galatians 3:29,
And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise

* Israel is God's name given to his people that believe and follow the Word of God. It is not the literal nation of Israel.

Romans 9:6-8
6, ¶ Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: 7, Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. 8, That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

There will be signs before the end but who are the signs from?

Matthew 24:24,
For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

Matthew 24:35-37
35, Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away. 36, But of that day and hour knows no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. 37, But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Time will tell the difference. However be sure of one thing. God's judgements have only ever come to mankind from Genesis to Revelations because of sin which is the transgression of God's Law (10 commandments) If we break one of God's commandments we stand guilty before God as sinners and are in danger of the judgments. This also includes God's 7th Day Sabbath which is one of the 10. As it was in the days of Noah and Sodom so shall the coming of the son of man be.

Seek ye the LORD while he may be found, call ye upon him while he is near: Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon

In Christ Always!

can you tell me why the moon is under her feet?

 

[Mem]

Yep

But look at the spin that gets thrown into that fact

Yes, I missed my chance to add the intended dramatic effect, because I couldn't decide which one would be most effective...

However, I've narrowed it down to 1:47 at this time.

[video=youtube;I1a9_XsMIO8]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I1a9_XsMIO8[/video]

 

[J7]

why x4 what is 4 come from?

From the curse, as opposed to the oath.

The same timelines are hidden in Daniel and Revelation...which can also be demonstrated

 

[Mem]

God's Word says that the woman of Revelations 12 is not the bride it is the wife who is pregnant with Child.

This though came to mind as I was reading and just a mere moment before reading it here!
I don't follow your subsequent points, though.

This is how I see it.
1. Not exactly Israel, but daughter Zion

2. She is clothed with the sun (sign of the faith of Abraham) with the moon (sign of fleshly work of Sarah, methinks, as her remedy for childlessness did not fair well, and, imo, resulted in this next point I'll bring up) at her feet, The Lion of Judah, covers her head.

Also,
Rev 17:11 says, "The beast that was, and was not, is himself an eighth king. He belongs to the other seven and is going into destruction."
This is just a point I wanted to bring up in relevance to the thread in general.

 

[Mem]

Addendum: I would have though the sun represented Jacob, and so forth, as so appeared to in Joseph's dream, but Joseph's mother had died in childbirth and so derived some deeper meaning out of the moon that vision also, and subsequently this one, being that Abraham is the primary source from which God's purpose is initiated.

 

[Bladerunner]

Ah! I see what you are saying. Interesting!!

27 [FONT="]And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, [U][B]and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

[/B][/U][/FONT][/COLOR]That being the Time of The Gentiles?

For instance 490 X 4 = 1960

1960 + 70 = 2030[/QUOTE]

[COLOR="#0000CD"]setting dates are we.

 

[Bladerunner]

That span of time has yet to end. We are still in it...

The end of it will be at the Second Coming of Christ.

For you maybe it will be END, but for me, It will be a little sooner than that and last an eternity.