REFORMED?

[SovereignGrace]

Eternal life is granted to those who come to Him by faith.

Exactly. But seeing none seek Him, none can, in and of themselves, come to Him by faith, why can't they come to Him in faith, in and of themselves? They're a spiritual corpse, as nekros in Ephesians 2:1 avers. That's why God must unilarterally move upon these spiritually dead corpses and give them spiritual life. Then once they have been given spiritual life, they exercise faith & repentance are are saved. These two events, being born and again and salvation happen simultaenously.

Faith & repentance are evidences of salvation, not the cause of it.

 

[UnderGrace]

This makes me think then God desires something that is not possible?

Exactly. But seeing none seek Him, none can, in and of themselves, come to Him by faith. Why can't they come to Him in faith, in and of themselves? They're a spiritual corpse, as nekros in Ephesians 2:1 avers. That's why God must unilareally move upon these spiritually dead corpses and give them spiritual life. Then once they have been given spiritual life, they exercise faith & repentance are are saved. These two events, being born and again and salvation happen simultaenously.

Faith & repentance are evidences of salvation, not the cause of it.

 

[preacher4truth]

Anyone else on here find it interesting that "shrume" and others on here falsely teach God is Sovereign in everything except salvation, and instead man is?

That is totally false: John 6:44; John 6:65;

Oh, wait, they'll throw in John 12:32 and then say man can reject God when that verse is teachings, doctrinally, when looking at other Scriptures dealing with the same subject, that all drawn will be saved.

The "all men" is not each and every person who has ever lived. That, and there is no way that every single man from the cross on has heard of Christ, the Gospel, or salvation. They haven't so deal with it.

Enter mysticism: It must also come into play to "prove" that all men since the cross had an opportunity, and did in fact hear the Gospel.

Their false teachings never end, they must continue to add things to their teachings to plug holes in their error and that is a fact.

God is Sovereign in all things, including salvation. But, we have those who try really hard to dethrone God here.

 

[SovereignGrace]

This makes me think then God desires something that is not possible?

Well, you're side of the debate avers God is not willing any die lost, but many more will die lost than saved. Its your side of the debate that your question is addressing, not us.

2 Peter 3:9 refers to His elect, those He chose(not those He knew would choose Him) from before the foundation of the world.[Ephesians 1:4] He's not willing any of them perish.

 

[Magenta]

Exactly. But seeing none seek Him, none can, in and of themselves, come to Him by faith, why can't they come to Him in faith, in and of themselves? They're a spiritual corpse, as nekros in Ephesians 2:1 avers. That's why God must unilarterally move upon these spiritually dead corpses and give them spiritual life. Then once they have been given spiritual life, they exercise faith & repentance are are saved. These two events, being born and again and salvation happen simultaenously.

Faith & repentance are evidences of salvation, not the cause of it.

With God all things are possible, but that does not mean He is forcing anyone to accept Him. God reveals Himself to those who seek, and we are told to seek diligently/sincerely, even though God knows we are not looking for Him, still people seek truth, and Jesus Christ is the embodiment of Truth. HE reveals Himself, which of itself guarantees nothing, since the responsibility for the person repenting of their rebellion against God is on them. Otherwise you extol a God Who punishes people for a choice they do not have and therefore cannot make.

 

[preacher4truth]

Well, you're side of the debate avers God is not willing any die lost, but many more will die lost than saved. Its your side of the debate that your question is addressing, not us.

2 Peter 3:9 refers to His elect, those He chose(not those He knew would choose Him) from before the foundation of the world.[Ephesians 1:4] He's not willing any of them perish.

BINGO!!! Some have a God that has unfulfilled decrees. They arrive at this by misunderstanding texts of Scripture and pulling them from context.

 

[SovereignGrace]

With God all things are possible, but that does not mean He is forcing anyone to accept Him. God reveals Himself to those who seek, and we are told to seek diligently/sincerely, even though God knows we are not looking for Him, still people seek truth, and Jesus Christ is the embodiment of Truth. HE reveals Himself, which of itself guarantees nothing, since the responsibility for the person repenting of their rebellion against God is on them. Otherwise you extol a God Who punishes people for a choice they do not have and therefore cannot make.

But none seek Him. You need to grasp that. God doesn't give special treatment to those who seek Him. He is the Seeker. We are those who were running the other way. Those who seek Him have been drawn, literally means to drag off(look up helko in a greek lexicon). When God draws we come. That's why we seek Him.

 

[preacher4truth]

Looks like this has not been answered.

MarcR? All I've offered to you the past couple days have been unanswered except that you finally responded to one post.

I'm waiting for you to answer this:

Brother, how in the world does that text support your statement that follows it?

My asking was in reference to what you posted here:

1 Co 6:19-20

19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?
20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.
KJV

The condition is that the forgiveness extends only to those who by faith acknowledge Jesus as Lord.

 

[Magenta]

But none seek Him. You need to grasp that. God doesn't give special treatment to those who seek Him. He is the Seeker. We are those who were running the other way. Those who seek Him have been drawn, literally means to drag off(look up helko in a greek lexicon). When God draws we come. That's why we seek Him.

You you contradict yourself, starting by saying, none seek Him, and ending by saying that's why we seek Him. You need to grasp the fact that I already said that People none-the-less seek TRUTH, and JESUS CHRIST is TRUTH. What part of that do you not understand?

You will seek me and find me when you seek me with all your heart.

 

[UnderGrace]

Somehow this aspect that God ultimately wills some to damnation, never giving them the gift of belief to believe, is never addressed?

With God all things are possible, but that does not mean He is forcing anyone to accept Him. God reveals Himself to those who seek, and we are told to seek diligently/sincerely, even though God knows we are not looking for Him, still people seek truth, and Jesus Christ is the embodiment of Truth. HE reveals Himself, which of itself guarantees nothing, since the responsibility for the person repenting of their rebellion against God is on them. Otherwise you extol a God Who punishes people for a choice they do not have and therefore cannot make.

 

[shrume]

In your position and in attempts to defend it you have failed to do so and have supplied texts that do not bolster your statements whatsoever. This has been shown you on several occasions

I disagree on all three points.

and your recourse is always to accuse the person of some sort of "behavior."

No it isn't.

But the demeanor of many of your responses proves my point.

Instead of going ad hominem, please try using passages in context, texts that actually deal with the subject matter you are espousing, and that actually back up what you're saying?

I did, several times. You disagree.

You have not done this in your last post. I've shown you this in your last post, the texts you referenced didn't support what you claimed.

I believe they do, quite emphatically. You disagree.

Also, we

Who is "we"?

get the idea that when you say we will be found dead wrong that what you really imply is that we are lost.

I'm pretty certain that is your position.

You are wrong.

For the record I don't believe anti-cals are lost, just because they have differing views. Confused, in error, yes. Lost? No. I'll leave you and others to make those impplications.

And here's the clincher: We believe God granted us faith, repentance, eternal life, that He did 100% of the saving, and that this was not a reward for us choosing Him. And then we have people implying for that we are "going to hell."

On the other hand we have people who believe they clinched salvation by making the proper choice, which is heterodox at the least, yet we're not implying they are lost.

I have not implied you are lost. You have surmised something that is not true, and run with it as though it were.

The Bible says that if you have confessed Jesus Christ as Lord and believed in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you shall be saved. I have no reason to think you have not done that, even though you believe God did it for you.

You've not offered any texts to show this, nor have you refuted any texts which show you to be in error.

I disagree.

What's really sad is that you resort to the ad hominem above, false accusations, and never really deal with the texts which refute your tradition of decisional regeneration. It's much easier to be snide than it is to prove your case. In debate it means you've failed to prove your case.

Please review my previous posts again. I believe the scripture I listed prove my beliefs to be correct.

But I've come to the conclusion that no matter what scripture I present, and no matter how I demonstrate from the Bible that Calvinism is not true, you won't be convinced in this life. I'm confident that you will be in the next.

Feel free to have the last word.

 

[MarcR]

Looks like this has not been answered.

MarcR? All I've offered to you the past couple days have been unanswered except that you finally responded to one post.

I'm waiting for you to answer this:



My asking was in reference to what you posted here:

IMO I have answered all your questions and You haven't liked my answers. I am willing to play verbal ping pong occasionally; but I will decide when I've had enough.

 

[UnderGrace]

Marc,

I just wanted to mention that with regards to John 15:16 being a reference to discipleship and not salvation, since Judas would have been included, which does pose a problem for those who see this as being chosen for salvation.

Interestingly enough, if one does their research there will find that Calvin himself conceded that is was a call for disciples to "perform their office diligently"

I guess Calvin was emotional too LOL

IMO I have answered all your questions and You haven't liked my answers. I am willing to play verbal ping pong occasionally; but I will decide when I've had enough.

 

[SovereignGrace]

You you contradict yourself, starting by saying, none seek Him, and ending by saying that's why we seek Him. You need to grasp the fact that I already said that People none-the-less seek TRUTH, and JESUS CHRIST is TRUTH. What part of that do you not understand?

You will seek me and find me when you seek me with all your heart.

Sissy, the only contradictions are the beliefs you hold to.

Abram was in Ur when God came to him. David was out tending to the sheep when God sent Samuel to him. Moses was in Midian after killing an Egyptian and fleeing to save his own life. Saul of Tarsus was doing what he thought was God's will when Jesus knocked him off his animal. The 12 disciples were either fishing or taxing up taxes when the Christ came to them.

What I mean about no one seeking Him is, first, it's biblical truth, avowed by Psalm 14 and Romans 3. Second, what I mean is this, no one wakes up one morning and says, "you know what, I am going to seek out God and serve Him." What I mean is that left in their fallen state, they can not and will not do this. At their very heart, they hate Him. They are His enemies. Now, no person seeks their enemy to worship them. If what you are saying is true, it would be like a Jewish man living in Germany during the holocaust seeking Hitler to worship him. That's the logic of your position.

Look at this passage...

For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.[Romans 8:5-8] In this passage, we see both classes of ppl, the lost, those whose mind is set upon the flesh, and the saved, those whose mind is set upon the Spirit. The lost ppl's flesh is hostile towards God, they hate Him, and they can not please Him, even if they tried.

They hate Him because they are enslaved to sin, are spiritually dead, and dead ppl can not seek, can not hear, can not see, &c. It is once God quickens them, moves unilaterally and brings them to life, that they can, and will, seek Him. But this is something that happens simultaneously.

 

[SovereignGrace]

IMO I have answered all your questions and You haven't liked my answers. I am willing to play verbal ping pong occasionally; but I will decide when I've had enough.

With all due respect sir, it was you who started this thread to begin with, and you should stay with us, imo.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Somehow this aspect that God ultimately wills some to damnation,

Huh? Srsly? Who has averred this on here? Man damned himself in Adam's rebellion. The Christ came to undo that which Adam did to us.

never giving them the gift of belief to believe, is never addressed?

Until you realize the lost are this...

You'll never truly grasp what lengths God went to to save us.

Let us appeal to the word and see what it has to say...

The hand of the LORD was upon me, and He brought me out by the Spirit of the LORD and set me down in the middle of the valley; and it was full of bones.. He caused me to pass among them round about, and behold, there were very many on the surface of the valley; and lo, they were very dry.[Ezekiel 37:1,2] Here we see a valley of bones that were so far dead that the bones were pretty much sun-bleached. They had no hope of ever living again, if left to their fallen selves. There was no will they could exercise, no faith there to help them, either. They were helpless and hopeless.

He said to me, “Son of man, can these bones live?” And I answered, “O Lord GOD, You know.”[vs 4] Now, how could these bones live again in your schema? They have no will that they can exercise, neither is there any innate faith to save them. They were completely cut off from life.

Again He said to me, “Prophesy over these bones and say to them, ‘O dry bones, hear the word of the LORD.’ Thus says the Lord GOD to these bones, ‘Behold, I will cause breath to enter you that you may come to life. I will put sinews on you, make flesh grow back on you, cover you with skin and put breath in you that you may come alive; and you will know that I am the LORD.’”[vss 4-6] Notice He told Exekiel to say 'hear the word of the LORD'. Wait!! Bones don't have ears to hear with! How can these dried up bones with no ears hear what Ezekiel said to them? Here is where God unilaterally moved upon them to bring them back to life. It was all of His doing, and none of theirs.


So I prophesied as I was commanded; and as I prophesied, there was a noise, and behold, a rattling; and the bones came together, bone to its bone. And I looked, and behold, sinews were on them, and flesh grew and skin covered them; but there was no breath in them. Then He said to me, “Prophesy to the breath, prophesy, son of man, and say to the breath, ‘Thus says the Lord GOD, “Come from the four winds, O breath, and breathe on these slain, that they come to life.”’” So I prophesied as He commanded me, and the breath came into them, and they came to life and stood on their feet, an exceedingly great army.[vss 7-10] This is a picture of how the gospel works. We are commanded to preach the gospel in all nations and to all ppl. Now, it is through the message God works to bring to life those who He wills to live. So, this OT vision that Ezekiel had tells us how it is God works to save His ppl from their sins.

As Jesus told those self-righteous scribes and Pharisees “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you are like whitewashed tombs which on the outside appear beautiful, but inside they are full of dead men’s bones and all uncleanness.[Matthew 23:27]

 

[peacefulbeliever]

What did Jesus teach in John 6:63?

"It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh is no help at all."

It cannot be more clear. In this our LORD is perfectly refuting decisional and choice salvation, and there are more texts which do the same, yet we are being called as lost, heretics &c because we believe salvation to be none of us as Christ shows here.

He also shows more of this in the passage and some turn from Him and follow Him no more because they are offended that they cannot in their flesh and effort, decision, choosing or will come to God! Note John 6:66.

The context of the text is about receiving eternal life, so it is not out of context or misused.

Yet, we still have those today, and here, teaching the opposite of this, that they did something, namely chose, which denies the Words of Christ. It is an unbiblical position.

Yes, the context is resurrection to eternal life. The one who will be quickened to everlasting life are those who believe . . . Verily, verily (surely, surely) I say unto you, He that believes on me has eternal life.

I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world. The Jews therefore strove among themselves saying, How can this man give us his flesh to eat? Except you eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, you have no life in you. . . . He that eats my flesh, and drinks my blood, dwells in me and I in him. . . . Many therefore of his disciples when they heard this, said, This is a hard saying; who can hear it? . . . It is the spirit that quickens; the flesh profits nothing: the words that I speak unto you, are spirit, and are life. . . . But there are some of you which believe not . . . Then said Jesus to the twelve, Will you also go away? Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? you have the words of eternal life. And we believe and are sure that you are that Christ, the Son of the living God . . .

These are the words of Jesus Christ. And I believe that the words he speaks are spirit and are life and we are to believe in him in order to receive eternal life.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Yes, the context is resurrection to eternal life. The one who will be quickened to everlasting life are those who believe . . . Verily, verily (surely, surely) I say unto you, He that believes on me has eternal life.

I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world. The Jews therefore strove among themselves saying, How can this man give us his flesh to eat? Except you eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, you have no life in you. . . . He that eats my flesh, and drinks my blood, dwells in me and I in him. . . . Many therefore of his disciples when they heard this, said, This is a hard saying; who can hear it? . . . It is the spirit that quickens; the flesh profits nothing: the words that I speak unto you, are spirit, and are life. . . . But there are some of you which believe not . . . Then said Jesus to the twelve, Will you also go away? Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? you have the words of eternal life. And we believe and are sure that you are that Christ, the Son of the living God . . .

These are the words of Jesus Christ. And I believe that the words he speaks are spirit and are life and we are to believe in him in order to receive eternal life.

He that believes has(present tense, as in already possesses it) eternal life. Nothing dead believes.

 

[peacefulbeliever]

All are in the same boat when they are offered the good news - the gospel - Some believe what they hear some do not. Some reach the point of repentance through godly sorrow and are truly sorrowful for their life of sin, want to be cleansed by the blood of Christ so they turn from that, i.e. repent. They believe in the only begotten Son of God - they believe that Jesus died and God raised him from the dead - they are born again.

He that believes on the Son has everlasting life: and he that believes not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abides in him. (John 3:36) Being justified BY faith (belief) - we have access BY faith (belief) into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God. (paraphrased Rom. 5:1,2)

Nope, we are not focusing on what man has to do . . . Christ gave his life so that we who believe in him are considered righteous, justified and will be glorified. We had nothing to do with the plan of salvation, it was all God and it was procured through the death and resurrection of his Son. We only have to believe and trust in God's plan - the gospel.

Sissy, you still haven't answered my questions.

Let me simplfy this. Not being snarky, but make my question simpler. I pray you don't take that as me being insulting, as that's not my intent whatsoever.

John and Roy hear the gospel and Roy believes and is saved. All things being equal, as both are just as spiritually dead as the other, why did Roy believe, but John didn't?

I answered to the best of my ability. Since I do not know John or Roy, I can't speak as to their reasoning.

 

[SovereignGrace]

I answered to the best of my ability. Since I do not know John or Roy, I can't speak as to their reasoning.

You're putting emphasis on man, and I am putting it on God. The lost hate God, are spiritually dead. Those who love God have been(already done) born of Him.[1 John 4:7]