Not by works, not by "only believe", and not by faith alone either
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I don't see how it will stun?
Jesus was fully God and fully man. You have read concerning Jesus' incarnation? God became flesh, so yes the flesh was created. But God was not created!
Isaiah 9:6
For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us; And the government will rest on His shoulders; And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace.
Isaiah 7:14
"Therefore the Lord Himself will give you a sign: Behold, a virgin will be with child and bear a son, and she will call His name Immanuel.
Luke 1:35
The angel answered and said to her, "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; and for that reason the holy Child shall be called the Son of God.
Philippians 2:6-7
6 who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped,7 but made himself nothing, taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men.
It sounds a little contradictory but I think I know what you mean.
Perhaps both you and Dan continue to misunderstand what I have been saying as far as works go.
I don't mean works of the law or even good works, which thing Mr. Dan cannot seem to separate from works of faith.
As I stated many times over, and as the bible clearly states, we are not, nor do I believe that we are saved by works, nor faith and good works.
I agree that you cannot separate faith and the biblical view of believing from works.
I have been trying to make a distinction between works of the law, which is based on merit, good works, which requires no faith and anyone can do, from works of faith, which cannot be a work of faith without the moving of God's hand in the situation. Like the works Jesus, Paul, and the apostles did. Works such as cleansing the lepers, healing the sick, casting out devils, ...and the like. We cannot do these works without the hand of God, but me have to do a work of faith first before God's hand moves. Look at almost EVERY situation involving man in the bible, and you will see, before God moved, someone did something in faith, first.
There's only one kind of God like faith, and it the same kind needed and necessary for salvation. We have to ACT on that belief before God moves, even to save a soul.
Again, this has nothing to do with works of the law or good works like giving to the poor, praying, or anything else that doesn't require faith to bear fruit.
If you have money to give to the poor, what faith is needed to do so? There is none. You don't need God to move for you to be ABLE to give, you simply give because you have it and want to give. That is a GOOD WORK.
Now if you want to give and don't have the money to give, now you have to pray to God for it, and believe that it is already given when you prayed, and then act on that belief, then God is obligated to fulfill His word and give you the money so you can give what you desired. This is a work of faith, because God's hand is needed for it to bear fruit or manifest in the natural. And God can't give you less than what you asked for, and neither should you do anything with the money other than what you promised God. If you then keep the money, then God will put a curse on you, which includes your family members, the money you asked for, and all that you own.
I hope you both see and understand the difference between the two.
One needs the hand of God and the others don't.
Perhaps both you and Dan continue to misunderstand what I have been saying as far as works go.
I don't mean works of the law or even good works, which thing Mr. Dan cannot seem to separate from works of faith.
As I stated many times over, and as the bible clearly states, we are not, nor do I believe that we are saved by works, nor faith and good works.
I agree that you cannot separate faith and the biblical view of believing from works.
I have been trying to make a distinction between works of the law, which is based on merit, good works, which requires no faith and anyone can do, from works of faith, which cannot be a work of faith without the moving of God's hand in the situation. Like the works Jesus, Paul, and the apostles did. Works such as cleansing the lepers, healing the sick, casting out devils, ...and the like. We cannot do these works without the hand of God, but me have to do a work of faith first before God's hand moves. Look at almost EVERY situation involving man in the bible, and you will see, before God moved, someone did something in faith, first.
There's only one kind of God like faith, and it the same kind needed and necessary for salvation. We have to ACT on that belief before God moves, even to save a soul.
Again, this has nothing to do with works of the law or good works like giving to the poor, praying, or anything else that doesn't require faith to bear fruit.
If you have money to give to the poor, what faith is needed to do so? There is none. You don't need God to move for you to be ABLE to give, you simply give because you have it and want to give. That is a GOOD WORK.
Now if you want to give and don't have the money to give, now you have to pray to God for it, and believe that it is already given when you prayed, and then act on that belief, then God is obligated to fulfill His word and give you the money so you can give what you desired. This is a work of faith, because God's hand is needed for it to bear fruit or manifest in the natural. And God can't give you less than what you asked for, and neither should you do anything with the money other than what you promised God. If you then keep the money, then God will put a curse on you, which includes your family members, the money you asked for, and all that you own.
I hope you both see and understand the difference between the two.
One needs the hand of God and the others don't.
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There is more than one form of communication we can do even if they are mute.
For instance, one can use sign language, or simply breath the words without using their voice as Hannah did, and notice that God both heard and answered her.
1Sa 1:12 And it came to pass, as she continued praying before the LORD, that Eli marked her mouth.
1Sa 1:13 Now Hannah, she spake in her heart; only her lips moved, but her voice was not heard: therefore Eli thought she had been drunken.
As for simply believing, it is written that "death and LIFE is in the power of the [YOUR] tongue, not your believing. No voice mentioned as needed.
Again, it is written "I create the fruit of the LIPS", not that of the mind or even that of the heart by simply believing. God creates your salvation when you move your lips. And there's nothing in there that says you have to use your voice either.
Paul said he preached the gospel saying believe with your heart unto righteousness and with your mouth, no voice needed, salvation is made, because God creates the fruit of your lips and life is in the power of your tongue. All of which speaks of the person being the initiator. God draws us, but we still have to act on that prompting when we believe, otherwise, nothing will happen. Simply believing in Jesus without any action on your part is like James said, it's dead.
It is all through the bible.
For instance, one can use sign language, or simply breath the words without using their voice as Hannah did, and notice that God both heard and answered her.
1Sa 1:12 And it came to pass, as she continued praying before the LORD, that Eli marked her mouth.
1Sa 1:13 Now Hannah, she spake in her heart; only her lips moved, but her voice was not heard: therefore Eli thought she had been drunken.
As for simply believing, it is written that "death and LIFE is in the power of the [YOUR] tongue, not your believing. No voice mentioned as needed.
Again, it is written "I create the fruit of the LIPS", not that of the mind or even that of the heart by simply believing. God creates your salvation when you move your lips. And there's nothing in there that says you have to use your voice either.
Paul said he preached the gospel saying believe with your heart unto righteousness and with your mouth, no voice needed, salvation is made, because God creates the fruit of your lips and life is in the power of your tongue. All of which speaks of the person being the initiator. God draws us, but we still have to act on that prompting when we believe, otherwise, nothing will happen. Simply believing in Jesus without any action on your part is like James said, it's dead.
It is all through the bible.
Tell me, if a pastor stands up and preaches the gospel to his congregation, does that mean, or is that your definition of, a genuine believer producing fruit? Or some of the congregation going out preaching salvation through Jesus Christ to people on the streets. Does that make that person a genuine believer producing fruit?
What's the difference between that pastor and say, a JW going out and preaching what they believe to be the gospel.
What is your understanding of the kind of works a true believer does? What works makes a believer fruitful?
What about you? What works do you do that shows your faith and produces fruit?
Please be specific. There are too many generalities and obscurity in your definitions. I'm having difficulty seeing exactly what kind of works of faith you are speaking of. thx
What's the difference between that pastor and say, a JW going out and preaching what they believe to be the gospel.
What is your understanding of the kind of works a true believer does? What works makes a believer fruitful?
What about you? What works do you do that shows your faith and produces fruit?
Please be specific. There are too many generalities and obscurity in your definitions. I'm having difficulty seeing exactly what kind of works of faith you are speaking of. thx
Since both words are two forms of the same word and you see that faith, being the noun, requires works in order for it to work, how much more should the verb form require action for it to line up with the noun form?
2Co 4:13 We having the same spirit of faith, according as it is written, I believed [in my heart], and therefore have I spoken; we also believe [in our hearts], and therefore speak;
And that is the same word Paul preached.
Believing in your heart on the lord Jesus to be righteousness in the eyes of God, but not saved.
Confessing with your mouth unto salvation.
Just because one is made righteous, does not automatically make that person born again.
Paul says one confesses Jesus before salvation is made. He says that is what CAUSES salvation to be made.
It is not made if one does not confess or act on that belief in Jesus.
2Co 4:13 We having the same spirit of faith, according as it is written, I believed [in my heart], and therefore have I spoken; we also believe [in our hearts], and therefore speak;
And that is the same word Paul preached.
Believing in your heart on the lord Jesus to be righteousness in the eyes of God, but not saved.
Confessing with your mouth unto salvation.
Just because one is made righteous, does not automatically make that person born again.
Paul says one confesses Jesus before salvation is made. He says that is what CAUSES salvation to be made.
It is not made if one does not confess or act on that belief in Jesus.
On the contrary, confessing Jesus as your lord is indeed a work of faith.
Joh 11:43 And when he thus had spoken, he cried with a loud voice, Lazarus, come forth.
Joh 11:44 And he that was dead came forth, bound hand and foot with graveclothes: and his face was bound about with a napkin. Jesus saith unto them, Loose him, and let him go.
Joh 10:32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?
Joh 10:33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.
Joh 10:34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
Joh 10:35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;
Joh 10:36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?
Joh 10:37 If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not.
Joh 10:38 But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.
According to Jesus, casting out a spirit with His word and commanding Lazarus to come forth with the same said word, is a work.
So yes, speaking words in faith is a work of faith, even as it was called a work by Jesus.
Joh 11:43 And when he thus had spoken, he cried with a loud voice, Lazarus, come forth.
Joh 11:44 And he that was dead came forth, bound hand and foot with graveclothes: and his face was bound about with a napkin. Jesus saith unto them, Loose him, and let him go.
Joh 10:32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?
Joh 10:33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.
Joh 10:34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
Joh 10:35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;
Joh 10:36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?
Joh 10:37 If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not.
Joh 10:38 But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.
According to Jesus, casting out a spirit with His word and commanding Lazarus to come forth with the same said word, is a work.
So yes, speaking words in faith is a work of faith, even as it was called a work by Jesus.
ATT:
KNOW 1
well I'm late to the thread, but here goes anyway (and if this has been covered, sorry...maybe just give me the short answer because I am not sure what you are saying
what exactly are you saying above? ^^^ I seriously want to know exactly what you mean by that statement
thanks
well I'm late to the thread, but here goes anyway (and if this has been covered, sorry...maybe just give me the short answer because I am not sure what you are saying
what exactly are you saying above? ^^^ I seriously want to know exactly what you mean by that statement
thanks
For one to receive salvation they must hear the gospel of Jesus Christ, for faith comes by hearing.
If you hear that Jesus loves you and that's all, would it be possible for you to receive Jesus or believe on Him or in His name?
No.
For one to get saved they have to hear and act on the message of salvation.
What about if that person wanted God to heal them but they are told that God will heal them if it's His will and you won't know that until it happens.
Will any healing take place.
No, because they have to hear the message of healing for them to have knowledge of and faith for their healing.
We are saved BY the word of God even as it was the word of God that made the worlds and all that is today.
Do you understand yet?
It's not that we must act but we will act. Simply believing without any action to follow is not truly believing. That would be an empty profession of faith and not authentic faith. The action (works) which follows believing is the fruit, by product and demonstrative evidence of genuine belief/faith, but not the essence of belief/faith and not the means of our salvation. Also, once again faith and confession are not two separate steps to salvation, but are chronologically together (Romans 10:8-10).
So you are sticking to your erroneous argument that those who believe unto righteousness today (remain lost) until later, after they confess with their mouth that Jesus is Lord a week later? 
You seem determined to believe that you are saved by works. As I said before, confessing with our mouth that Jesus is Lord and believing in our heart that God raised Him from the dead are not two separate steps to salvation but are chronologically together (Romans 10:8-10). Also, this confession is an expression of faith, not a work for salvation. The word of faith is in our mouth and in our heart TOGETHER. That's the point. Not that believing in Christ is insufficient to save until we accomplish confession as a work of merit for salvation afterwards in order to become saved. If that was the case, then these passages of scripture would be a lie - John 3:15,16,18; Acts 10:43; 13:39; 16:31 etc..
So you are using the example of Jesus' words as a work to justify your belief that confession is a work of merit for salvation? What other works are you trusting in for salvation?
You seem determined to believe that you are saved by works. As I said before, confessing with our mouth that Jesus is Lord and believing in our heart that God raised Him from the dead are not two separate steps to salvation but are chronologically together (Romans 10:8-10). Also, this confession is an expression of faith, not a work for salvation. The word of faith is in our mouth and in our heart TOGETHER. That's the point. Not that believing in Christ is insufficient to save until we accomplish confession as a work of merit for salvation afterwards in order to become saved. If that was the case, then these passages of scripture would be a lie - John 3:15,16,18; Acts 10:43; 13:39; 16:31 etc..
So you are using the example of Jesus' words as a work to justify your belief that confession is a work of merit for salvation? What other works are you trusting in for salvation?
I'm not questioning the faithfulness of God, and God works in believers to both will and do His good pleasure. "Faith of God, work of God, cause of the fall, not having the faith of Him unseen?" Why is it always about faith "of" God and not faith "in" God with you?
As always he must do the first works .It is the work of God working in the believer to both will and do his good pleasure A imputed righteousness in respect to the work of God by which we can believe Him not of our own selves. Without His faith working in us we cannot please him.
I would suggest there are two kinds of faiths as works. Seeing faith without any kind of work is considered dead works, coming from a dead faith.
The supernatural having no beginning as the things exclusively of God. and natural as dead with no power to work to commune with God which is called “no faith” a froward generation the generation of Adam as the things of men
Deuteronomy 32:20 And he said, I will hide my face from them, I will see what their end shall be: for they are a very froward generation, children in whom is no faith.
That would describe the faith or belief of natural man without God. It is shown in Hebrew 6:1 as a faith “in” offered towards a god that come from the heart of natural man called the imaginations of one own heart therefore making the heart of man a source of faith.
It would describe the faith of belief of an Atheist. No God of the scriptures in their heart they have become their own gods and violate the first commandment by having them self as a god they put before our actual faithful Creator. Christians are given a new heart as a result of God’s new creation.
Because it does not come “from” God or “of” God the author of our new living faith, scripture refers to it as “no faith” .It would be a false zeal as the things of natural man.
The supernatural faith of God has no beginning it can create substance out of non-substance. It can actively work in a person who does not have the kind faith required to believe God seeing it is not of us even though we do have its power in us .
We have faith in him because we are found of Him .By the faith of Christ that works in us to both will and do his good pleasure we can offer the fruit of our mouths in thanksgiving as faith towards him our amen. Acknowledging we have heard him as he does work in us giving us ear to hear what the Spirit of Christ is saying to the churches.. .
Philippians 3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
You could ask what if the person does not believe,(the cause of His faith working in us) like those in Hebrews 6 (those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come ( no faith ),
Will their unbelief(no faith) make the faith of God without effect ,(to effect is to work ) We cannot have faith in or towards God unless does the first work of giving us the hearing of His faith.
Christians when they become atheistic in their hearts (no faith) as a way of denying God in unbelief (no faith) they have lost their first love, "hearing God" . They would be required to do the first works.... Believe God and not trust their own hearts as false source of the faith . His word is required to believe God as he does work in us to both will and do His good pleasure .
O foolish (no faith of God) Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the "hearing of faith?"(God’s) Are ye so foolish? (no faith of God) having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain.He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the "hearing of faith?" Gal 3:1-5
By the hearing of faith? (hearing what God says to the churches and not what does man say as if sinners like the Nicolaitanes could be a source of His faith.
E
The title of this thread is defensless.
It is of works, or it is of grace (through faith) apart from works.
there is no other option found in scripture
If it is not of faith alone, it is of works, If it is of works, it is of faith in self (works) not faith in God.
There is no other option. You trust Christ, Or you trust self.
It is of works, or it is of grace (through faith) apart from works.
there is no other option found in scripture
If it is not of faith alone, it is of works, If it is of works, it is of faith in self (works) not faith in God.
There is no other option. You trust Christ, Or you trust self.