Not by works, not by "only believe", and not by faith alone either
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Hi Deacon...Maybe if you go and read where Peter met with Cornelius, it might help you understand more and not keep you stuck on Acts 2:38...Baptism is an outward show, a declaration, it has nothing whatsoever to do with being saved...We are saved by Grace, through faith, less any man should boast...My son is doing life in prison, he is born again, he has not been baptized with water, the Holy Spirit is truly working in his life, do you really think God after calling my son to Him would say " Well sorry lad, no baptizm, your not saved "...My son is saved because from his mouth he calls Jesus his Lord and Saviour, my son is locked up 23 hours a day, he does not and can not do works for his salvation, but he can be a light for Jesus in a very dark place that he lives in for now...I pray that God will open your eyes and then you will be able to move forward and grow...xox...
Yes, works give life to faith, as it is written.
Jas 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
You are trying to use natural reasoning to the spiritual.
You finally acknowledged a work of faith. And there is no difference between a healing or the saving of a soul, as both REQUIRE the same kind of spirit of faith, for there is only one kind of faith of God and it is NECESSARY for healing, casting out spirits, and salvation. We are saved by faith and we are healed by the same said faith.
Eph4:5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
2Co 4:13 We having the same spirit of faith, according as it is written, I believed, and therefore have I spoken; we also believe, and therefore speak;
There is only one God kind of faith, but that faith with a corresponding work can be for any number of different things. One can have faith for salvation but not for healing, but the same kind of faith is required for both. The fruit of one having faith for salvation is that they get saved, and the fruit for healing is that they get healed. Same kind of faith, but each faith is for and directed at something different.
Believers will indeed produce good works, and as I have been stating repeatedly from the beginning, we are not saved by good works,even as we are not saved by believing only, but as Romans 10 states it, “confession is made unto salvation”, or to say the same thing another way, salvation is made when we confess Jesus as lord. It is because you continue to lump good works and works of faith, such as that which Peter did, as the same thing, and they are not. One does not require the hand of God to move to bear fruit and the other does.Giving to the poor when it is in your power and ability to give does not need the hand of God for your desire to bear fruit by giving. You desire to give, you having, you give. That is a good deed. But if you desire to say cast out a spirit from someone, which is not within your power or ability, the power of God is needed and necessary because of our inability to do so, and therefore, like Peter healing the impotent man, an act or word of faith IS NECESSARY for your faith to cast out a spirit, or for your faith to bear fruit. Without the word of faith, your faith is dead. Meaning, nothing will happen without the work of faith. The work being, speaking the word of God in faith in the name of Jesus. Jesus calls that a work. So in that sense, if you do not speak verbally to that said spirit, your faith is indeed dead and absolutely nothing will happen. The same faith required to cast out a spirit is the same faith required for healing,is the same faith required for salvation. And in each case involving an act or word of faith, the grace of God is not only needed but is sufficient for said faith to bear fruit. And this is where God's power is made perfect in our weaknesses or inabilities.
That's a pretty way of saying you are making some scripture fit your interpretation and understanding of other scripture, because I am doing the same. Only I see you changing the meaning of what I see as clear, simple, and obvious.
Righteous when he believed, yes, but not justified until he acted on that belief.
Believing= righteousness and believing with works of faith= justification.
Rom 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
1Pe 4:18 And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?
The righteous get saved, they are not automatically saved just because they are righteous when they believe.
Romans clearly says that salvation isn't made UNTIL they confess Jesus with their mouth.
Death and life is not in the power of the heart, but the tongue. In order for either death or life to take place, one must use their tongue verbally.
God creates the fruit of the lips. Again, God creates the fruit of our lips by us speaking words verbally.
A good or bad man brings forth or causes it to manifest, both good or bad things respectively, because out of the abundance of the heart, his MOUTH SPEAKS VERBAL WORDS.
Nothing happens until the person confesses with their mouth. It's all through the bible.
Yes, Abraham was righteous when he believed God, as it is written, but he was justified after a work of faith. They are not the same thing, even as a good work and work of faith are not the same thing.
I merely quoted from both Strong's and Thayer's dictionaries. I didn't change anything they said.
I don't see it that way at all. First James is not trying to show PROOF of faith, but HOW FAITH WORKS.
And second, I don't know how you can say James 2 is a stumbling block for people like me, because I only see it confirming what I see the rest of the bible saying and helping my argument concerning how faith works.
That being, that in order for faith to work, works are necessary, and without works of faith, faith or simply believing is dead in the water, without power to move.
As I stated above, I have never taught, nor am I now, saying that salvation is by works, but salvation is made by a work of faith as it is written in Romans 10.
The word, believe, is an action word or verb, and there is more than one kind of believing.
There is a passive kind of believing and an active kind.
If one believe on or in the name of Jesus, the way the bible means it, then they would USE the name of Jesus to do things with, such as cast out a spirit or two, or use the promises of God, or speak words of faith in His name, and so on.
To simply believe and do nothing, results in an outcome of nothing happening.
Which brings me to another scripture that teaches works of faith.
Gal 6:7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.
Gal 6:8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.
If you don't sow anything by acting on that faith or belief, you can't reap anything. You must plant before you can reap, and you can't plant if you say or do nothing.
Jesus sowed good seed by spreading the gospel verbally. If He just believe it would spread but said nothing, then He would have reaped the same nothing that He sowed. Nothing equals nothing.
You must speak what you believe for any action on God's part to take place. It has been that way all through the bible, and that is what James teaches in chapter 2, and what Paul is saying in the book of Romans in chapter 10.
Jas 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
You are trying to use natural reasoning to the spiritual.
You finally acknowledged a work of faith. And there is no difference between a healing or the saving of a soul, as both REQUIRE the same kind of spirit of faith, for there is only one kind of faith of God and it is NECESSARY for healing, casting out spirits, and salvation. We are saved by faith and we are healed by the same said faith.
Eph4:5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
2Co 4:13 We having the same spirit of faith, according as it is written, I believed, and therefore have I spoken; we also believe, and therefore speak;
There is only one God kind of faith, but that faith with a corresponding work can be for any number of different things. One can have faith for salvation but not for healing, but the same kind of faith is required for both. The fruit of one having faith for salvation is that they get saved, and the fruit for healing is that they get healed. Same kind of faith, but each faith is for and directed at something different.
Believers will indeed produce good works, and as I have been stating repeatedly from the beginning, we are not saved by good works,even as we are not saved by believing only, but as Romans 10 states it, “confession is made unto salvation”, or to say the same thing another way, salvation is made when we confess Jesus as lord. It is because you continue to lump good works and works of faith, such as that which Peter did, as the same thing, and they are not. One does not require the hand of God to move to bear fruit and the other does.Giving to the poor when it is in your power and ability to give does not need the hand of God for your desire to bear fruit by giving. You desire to give, you having, you give. That is a good deed. But if you desire to say cast out a spirit from someone, which is not within your power or ability, the power of God is needed and necessary because of our inability to do so, and therefore, like Peter healing the impotent man, an act or word of faith IS NECESSARY for your faith to cast out a spirit, or for your faith to bear fruit. Without the word of faith, your faith is dead. Meaning, nothing will happen without the work of faith. The work being, speaking the word of God in faith in the name of Jesus. Jesus calls that a work. So in that sense, if you do not speak verbally to that said spirit, your faith is indeed dead and absolutely nothing will happen. The same faith required to cast out a spirit is the same faith required for healing,is the same faith required for salvation. And in each case involving an act or word of faith, the grace of God is not only needed but is sufficient for said faith to bear fruit. And this is where God's power is made perfect in our weaknesses or inabilities.
That's a pretty way of saying you are making some scripture fit your interpretation and understanding of other scripture, because I am doing the same. Only I see you changing the meaning of what I see as clear, simple, and obvious.
Righteous when he believed, yes, but not justified until he acted on that belief.
Believing= righteousness and believing with works of faith= justification.
Rom 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
1Pe 4:18 And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?
The righteous get saved, they are not automatically saved just because they are righteous when they believe.
Romans clearly says that salvation isn't made UNTIL they confess Jesus with their mouth.
Death and life is not in the power of the heart, but the tongue. In order for either death or life to take place, one must use their tongue verbally.
God creates the fruit of the lips. Again, God creates the fruit of our lips by us speaking words verbally.
A good or bad man brings forth or causes it to manifest, both good or bad things respectively, because out of the abundance of the heart, his MOUTH SPEAKS VERBAL WORDS.
Nothing happens until the person confesses with their mouth. It's all through the bible.
Yes, Abraham was righteous when he believed God, as it is written, but he was justified after a work of faith. They are not the same thing, even as a good work and work of faith are not the same thing.
I merely quoted from both Strong's and Thayer's dictionaries. I didn't change anything they said.
I don't see it that way at all. First James is not trying to show PROOF of faith, but HOW FAITH WORKS.
And second, I don't know how you can say James 2 is a stumbling block for people like me, because I only see it confirming what I see the rest of the bible saying and helping my argument concerning how faith works.
That being, that in order for faith to work, works are necessary, and without works of faith, faith or simply believing is dead in the water, without power to move.
As I stated above, I have never taught, nor am I now, saying that salvation is by works, but salvation is made by a work of faith as it is written in Romans 10.
The word, believe, is an action word or verb, and there is more than one kind of believing.
There is a passive kind of believing and an active kind.
If one believe on or in the name of Jesus, the way the bible means it, then they would USE the name of Jesus to do things with, such as cast out a spirit or two, or use the promises of God, or speak words of faith in His name, and so on.
To simply believe and do nothing, results in an outcome of nothing happening.
Which brings me to another scripture that teaches works of faith.
Gal 6:7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.
Gal 6:8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.
If you don't sow anything by acting on that faith or belief, you can't reap anything. You must plant before you can reap, and you can't plant if you say or do nothing.
Jesus sowed good seed by spreading the gospel verbally. If He just believe it would spread but said nothing, then He would have reaped the same nothing that He sowed. Nothing equals nothing.
You must speak what you believe for any action on God's part to take place. It has been that way all through the bible, and that is what James teaches in chapter 2, and what Paul is saying in the book of Romans in chapter 10.
I can see that everything I explained in post #70 just went right over your head. Acts 2:38 is not the only verse in the Bible, but it's a favorite verse of works-salvationists who are mixed up in false religions and cults. You need to go back and re-read post #175 and learn how to properly harmonize Scripture with Scripture - http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/158620-can-salvation-lost-9.html
BTY - Unbelievers refuse to believe the gospel and have not obeyed God's commandments.
BTY - Unbelievers refuse to believe the gospel and have not obeyed God's commandments.
The comparison of the human spirit and faith converges around their modes of operation. The spirit (Greek pneuma) may also be translated "breath." As a breathless body emits no indication of life, so fruitless faith exhibits no indication of life. The source of the life in faith is not the works; rather, life in faith is the source of the works. You have it backwards.
That statement is the epitome of irony.
I understand what a work of faith "work done out of faith" is and we are still saved through faith and not by works that are produced out of faith.
We are saved through faith, not works (Ephesians 2:8,9).
Still nothing about salvation by works.
You are making this out to be more complicated than it really is.
You say here that we are not saved by good works, yet your interpretation of James 2:14-26 seems to indicate otherwise.
Works produced out of faith are good works. Confessing with our mouth that Jesus is Lord is an expression of faith, not a work for salvation. Romans 10:8 - But what does it say? "THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, in your mouth and in your heart" (together) that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, (notice the reverse order from verse 9 to verse 10) - that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. Confess/believe; believe/confess. *Not two separate steps to salvation, but chronologically together. It's not believe today but still lost, then confess next week and finally saved next week.
1 Corinthians 12:3 - Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God calls Jesus accursed, and no one can say that Jesus is Lord except BY the Holy Spirit. There is divine influence or direct operation of the Holy Spirit in the heart of a person when confessing Jesus as Lord. This confession is not just a simple acknowledgment that Jesus is the Lord (even the demons believe that), but is a deep personal conviction, without reservation, that Jesus is that person's Lord and Savior. So simply believing in our head (and not in our heart) that God raised Him from the dead does not result in righteousness and simply reciting/giving lip service to the words "Jesus is Lord" not by the Holy Spirit is not unto salvation.
Again, you are making this out to be more complicated than it really is, so I'm going to simplify it for you. Either we place our faith (belief, trust, reliance) 100% in Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation or else we are 100% lost.
I properly harmonized scripture with scripture and also gave the proper meaning according to the CONTEXT. You have not done the same.
False. Your argument equates to justified/saved by works. Believing = righteousness which = justified/saved. Abraham was justified "accounted as righteous" when he believed God in Genesis 15:6 (see Romans 4:2-3) and was already saved before he was justified "shown to be righteous" by works in Genesis 22. Works bear out the justification that already came by faith.
Believes unto righteousness = saved/confession is made unto salvation. Not two separate steps to salvation, but chronologically together. Confess/believe; believe/confess. Romans 10:8 - But what does it say? "THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, in your mouth and in your heart" (together) that is, the word of faith which we are preaching.
Scarcely saved does not mean that the righteous just barely receive salvation. The point here is that if the righteous are saved only with great difficulty, suffering, pain and loss etc.. (NAS - And if it is with difficulty that the righteous are saved..) what will be the end of the ungodly and the sinner?
Yes they are saved when they believe. Believers are saved (John 3:15,16,18; Acts 10:43; 13:39; 16:31; Romans 1:16; 3:22-28; 4:5 etc..). Righteous = saved. Romans 4:5 - But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, 6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works. *The unrighteous will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life (Matthew 25:46).
That's not what Paul is teaching in Romans 10:9,10. It's not believe today (but still lost) then confess next week and finally confess next week. Believes unto righteousness = saved/confession is made unto salvation are not two separate steps to salvation, but are chronologically together, as I showed you in Romans 10:8-10. *So what about someone who is unable to speak? (moot). How can they confess with their "mouth?" Such a person would remain lost according to your erroneous interpretation of Romans 10:9,10. Campbellites make the same error when interpreting this passage of scripture.
And if they are unable to speak? (moot)
Luke 6:45 - A good man out of the good treasure of his heart brings forth good; and an evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart brings forth evil. For out of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaks. Words reveal the state of our hearts and give evidence for or against a man being in a state of righteousness.
It's not the confession in of itself that saves you as an additional requirement after we believe, it's the faith behind the confession. The word of faith is in our mouth and in our heart "together" (Romans 10:8) or else it's not at all.
More confusion on your part. The harmony of Romans 4:2-3 and James 2:24 is seen in the differing ways that Paul and James use the term "justified." Paul, when he uses the term, refers to the legal (judicial) act of God by which He accounts the sinner as righteous. James, however is using the term to describe those who would show or prove the genuineness of their faith by the works that they do - "shown to be righteous."
Yet you gave the word "justified" a broad brushed definition of "to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous" and you failed to see that the word "justified" can also mean "to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered," which fits the CONTEXT of James 2. I didn't change anything they said, I simply applied the proper definition of justified according to the CONTEXT of James 2, as I showed you in post #67.
Then you don't believe and you trust in works for salvation.
In James 2:14, we read of one who says-claims he has faith but has no works (to back up his claim). Where is the proof? This is not genuine faith, but a bare profession of faith. So when James asks, "Can that faith save him?" He is saying nothing against genuine faith, but only against an empty profession of faith/dead faith. Again, James is discussing the proof of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18), not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God (Romans 4:2-3).
It's a stumbling block for works-salvationists in general.
Genuine faith does not fail to produce works, which demonstrates that it's not dead faith.
Distinction without a difference. You are trying to turn confession into a work for salvation, but that's not the case. What other works do you add to salvation through faith?
The word translated faith is found in the Greek lexicon of the Strong’s Exhaustive Concordance and is defined as follows: #4102; pistis; persuasion, i.e. credence; moral conviction (of religious truth, or the truthfulness of God or a religious teacher), especially reliance upon Christ for salvation; abstractly, constancy in such profession; by extension, the system of religious (Gospel) truth itself:--assurance, belief, believe, faith, fidelity. The word translated believe is from the greek word pisteuō which means "to have faith (in, upon, or with respect to, a person or thing), that is, credit; by implication to entrust (especially one’s spiritual well being to Christ)."
The word "believe" can describe mere "mental assent" (James 2:19) or also include "trust and reliance" (Acts 16:31). The Greek words for "pistis" and "pisteuo" are two forms of the same word. "Pistis" is the noun form, "pisteuo" is the verb form. Nothing in the root meaning of either word carries any concept of works. If you believe in Christ for salvation, then you are trusting in Him alone to save you. This belief results in actions appropriate to the belief - but the actions are NOT INHERENT in the belief.
Yet we are saved by believing on or in the name of Jesus (John 1:12; 1 John 5:13) and not by doing things (works) which are produced out of faith.
The one who is constantly (Greek present tense) sowing with a view to the promotion of his own corrupt, sinful nature; that nature which is opposed to God and unrenewed by the Holy Spirit shall of the flesh reap corruption. Physical, moral, and spiritual rottenness and ruin. But he that sows to the Spirit (our life here is a sowing of one kind or another) shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting. In opposition to corruption. Eternal life is produced by the Holy Spirit in those who put their trust in Jesus Christ for salvation.
Believe the gospel then do nothing is an oxymoron. Faith without works is dead. *All genuine believers are fruitful, but not all are equally fruitful.
So I guess that people who are unable to speak (moot) are just out of luck?
That statement is the epitome of irony.
I understand what a work of faith "work done out of faith" is and we are still saved through faith and not by works that are produced out of faith.
We are saved through faith, not works (Ephesians 2:8,9).
Still nothing about salvation by works.
You are making this out to be more complicated than it really is.
You say here that we are not saved by good works, yet your interpretation of James 2:14-26 seems to indicate otherwise.
Works produced out of faith are good works. Confessing with our mouth that Jesus is Lord is an expression of faith, not a work for salvation. Romans 10:8 - But what does it say? "THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, in your mouth and in your heart" (together) that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, (notice the reverse order from verse 9 to verse 10) - that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. Confess/believe; believe/confess. *Not two separate steps to salvation, but chronologically together. It's not believe today but still lost, then confess next week and finally saved next week.
1 Corinthians 12:3 - Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God calls Jesus accursed, and no one can say that Jesus is Lord except BY the Holy Spirit. There is divine influence or direct operation of the Holy Spirit in the heart of a person when confessing Jesus as Lord. This confession is not just a simple acknowledgment that Jesus is the Lord (even the demons believe that), but is a deep personal conviction, without reservation, that Jesus is that person's Lord and Savior. So simply believing in our head (and not in our heart) that God raised Him from the dead does not result in righteousness and simply reciting/giving lip service to the words "Jesus is Lord" not by the Holy Spirit is not unto salvation.
Again, you are making this out to be more complicated than it really is, so I'm going to simplify it for you. Either we place our faith (belief, trust, reliance) 100% in Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation or else we are 100% lost.
I properly harmonized scripture with scripture and also gave the proper meaning according to the CONTEXT. You have not done the same.
False. Your argument equates to justified/saved by works. Believing = righteousness which = justified/saved. Abraham was justified "accounted as righteous" when he believed God in Genesis 15:6 (see Romans 4:2-3) and was already saved before he was justified "shown to be righteous" by works in Genesis 22. Works bear out the justification that already came by faith.
Believes unto righteousness = saved/confession is made unto salvation. Not two separate steps to salvation, but chronologically together. Confess/believe; believe/confess. Romans 10:8 - But what does it say? "THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, in your mouth and in your heart" (together) that is, the word of faith which we are preaching.
Scarcely saved does not mean that the righteous just barely receive salvation. The point here is that if the righteous are saved only with great difficulty, suffering, pain and loss etc.. (NAS - And if it is with difficulty that the righteous are saved..) what will be the end of the ungodly and the sinner?
Yes they are saved when they believe. Believers are saved (John 3:15,16,18; Acts 10:43; 13:39; 16:31; Romans 1:16; 3:22-28; 4:5 etc..). Righteous = saved. Romans 4:5 - But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, 6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works. *The unrighteous will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life (Matthew 25:46).
That's not what Paul is teaching in Romans 10:9,10. It's not believe today (but still lost) then confess next week and finally confess next week. Believes unto righteousness = saved/confession is made unto salvation are not two separate steps to salvation, but are chronologically together, as I showed you in Romans 10:8-10. *So what about someone who is unable to speak? (moot). How can they confess with their "mouth?" Such a person would remain lost according to your erroneous interpretation of Romans 10:9,10. Campbellites make the same error when interpreting this passage of scripture.
And if they are unable to speak? (moot)
Luke 6:45 - A good man out of the good treasure of his heart brings forth good; and an evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart brings forth evil. For out of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaks. Words reveal the state of our hearts and give evidence for or against a man being in a state of righteousness.
It's not the confession in of itself that saves you as an additional requirement after we believe, it's the faith behind the confession. The word of faith is in our mouth and in our heart "together" (Romans 10:8) or else it's not at all.
More confusion on your part. The harmony of Romans 4:2-3 and James 2:24 is seen in the differing ways that Paul and James use the term "justified." Paul, when he uses the term, refers to the legal (judicial) act of God by which He accounts the sinner as righteous. James, however is using the term to describe those who would show or prove the genuineness of their faith by the works that they do - "shown to be righteous."
Yet you gave the word "justified" a broad brushed definition of "to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous" and you failed to see that the word "justified" can also mean "to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered," which fits the CONTEXT of James 2. I didn't change anything they said, I simply applied the proper definition of justified according to the CONTEXT of James 2, as I showed you in post #67.
Then you don't believe and you trust in works for salvation.
In James 2:14, we read of one who says-claims he has faith but has no works (to back up his claim). Where is the proof? This is not genuine faith, but a bare profession of faith. So when James asks, "Can that faith save him?" He is saying nothing against genuine faith, but only against an empty profession of faith/dead faith. Again, James is discussing the proof of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18), not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God (Romans 4:2-3).
It's a stumbling block for works-salvationists in general.
Genuine faith does not fail to produce works, which demonstrates that it's not dead faith.
Distinction without a difference. You are trying to turn confession into a work for salvation, but that's not the case. What other works do you add to salvation through faith?
The word translated faith is found in the Greek lexicon of the Strong’s Exhaustive Concordance and is defined as follows: #4102; pistis; persuasion, i.e. credence; moral conviction (of religious truth, or the truthfulness of God or a religious teacher), especially reliance upon Christ for salvation; abstractly, constancy in such profession; by extension, the system of religious (Gospel) truth itself:--assurance, belief, believe, faith, fidelity. The word translated believe is from the greek word pisteuō which means "to have faith (in, upon, or with respect to, a person or thing), that is, credit; by implication to entrust (especially one’s spiritual well being to Christ)."
The word "believe" can describe mere "mental assent" (James 2:19) or also include "trust and reliance" (Acts 16:31). The Greek words for "pistis" and "pisteuo" are two forms of the same word. "Pistis" is the noun form, "pisteuo" is the verb form. Nothing in the root meaning of either word carries any concept of works. If you believe in Christ for salvation, then you are trusting in Him alone to save you. This belief results in actions appropriate to the belief - but the actions are NOT INHERENT in the belief.
Yet we are saved by believing on or in the name of Jesus (John 1:12; 1 John 5:13) and not by doing things (works) which are produced out of faith.
The one who is constantly (Greek present tense) sowing with a view to the promotion of his own corrupt, sinful nature; that nature which is opposed to God and unrenewed by the Holy Spirit shall of the flesh reap corruption. Physical, moral, and spiritual rottenness and ruin. But he that sows to the Spirit (our life here is a sowing of one kind or another) shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting. In opposition to corruption. Eternal life is produced by the Holy Spirit in those who put their trust in Jesus Christ for salvation.
Believe the gospel then do nothing is an oxymoron. Faith without works is dead. *All genuine believers are fruitful, but not all are equally fruitful.
So I guess that people who are unable to speak (moot) are just out of luck?
The source of the life in faith (a living faith) is in the works of God, as His work of faith or labor of His love alone.. Some would turn that upside down as if it came after the the imagination of ones own heart as a human work of faith, making the faith of God without effect.
They simply do not believe God.No faith is accredited to the imagination of their heart natural unconverted hearts.
From my experiences it would seem many don't want God to have faith, as if he could work in us without it. that would make it impossible for us to defend His faith which does in the end defend us.
For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect? God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.Rom 3:3
They simply do not believe God.No faith is accredited to the imagination of their heart natural unconverted hearts.
From my experiences it would seem many don't want God to have faith, as if he could work in us without it. that would make it impossible for us to defend His faith which does in the end defend us.
For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect? God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.Rom 3:3
Twice in your reply, you have admitted there is such a things as works of faith. When you look at the works of Jesus, Peter, and Paul, where they did some kind of act of faith before God intervened, and when you read James 2, one cannot help but see the similarities. What James describes, is what Jesus and the apostles did before God healed, delivered, or saved anyone. Sometimes no word of faith was spoken, but a work of faith was performed, such as when Jesus' healed Peter's wife's mother of a fever by touching her hand. All through the bible we see acts of faith done before God moved on the behalf of the person doing the work.
God does not move for those doing works of the law, but He does for those who do works of faith.
And for you to continue to compare Paul's writings in Romans with James', is silly to say the lease. They clearly are not talking about the same kind of work. I have no problem with your interpretation of the word, work, in the book of Romans and Galations, because Paul is talking about the works of the law. But James clearly is not talking about works of the law, but works of faith. It is like someone trying to make an oranges look, smell, and taste like an apple, when it is clearly an orange. It just doesn't fit, nor does James' description of works "harmonize" with other scripture verses that are talking about works of the law.
If anything harmonizes with anything, it would be James' writings describing how Jesus and the apostles used their faith with a corresponding work or two. Whether it was a word or an act or a combination of both, something was done before God moved in the situation, and they were the ones who initiated the act in order for their faith to bear fruit.
As for believing only, Jesus said at the very least, signs would follow those who say they believe. Are any signs following your believing only.
Please show me two examples of someone in the bible who believed only, without speaking or acting on that belief and getting what they desired. I don't see that happening.
But if you were to ask me to give you examples of what I have been saying, I could fill a post. They are all through the bible and then some. I could give you many personal examples of God moving in my life because of works of faith. I've done both the believing only and hoping, and I got back what I put in to it. A big fat nothing or failure.
Simply believing doesn't work, and it is not faith.
Doesn't the bible says we are save by grace through believing only?.......
Whoops, no it's not through believing but through faith, which Paul described as one believing in their heart and confessing that belief with their mouth. That is how faith works.
Even as works of faith and works of the law are different, so is your understanding of believing and that of the bible's.
Receiving one's salvation is no different than the same one receiving their healing. The same faith needed for their healing is the same faith needed for their salvation, as I proved. There is only one kind of God like faith that the bible mentions, and it is necessary for both.
The Bible NOWHERE says that man is saved through faith AND works of faith. Works of faith may precede healing and blessings, but not salvation. Faith in Christ is established first and we are saved through faith, then works of faith follow as the fruit of salvation, but not the means of our salvation.
Works done with the intention of receiving eternal life based on accomplishing those works are not works of faith. Faith in works is not faith in Christ.
For you to continue to make a distinction between works of faith and good works and also try to dissect works of faith/good works from the moral aspect of the law is silly to say the least. When people set out to do that, they end up trying to teach that we are saved by "these" works (works of faith) and just not "those" works (works of the law) but it's all a big smoke screen.
*As I already explained to you in post #22:
In James 2:15-16, the example of a "work" that James gives is: "If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, and one of you says to them, "Depart in peace, be warmed and filled," but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit?" To give a brother or sister these things needed for the body would certainly be a "good work/work of faith" yet to neglect such a brother or sister and not give them the things needed for the body is to break the second great commandment "love your neighbor as yourself" (Matthew 22:39) as found written in the law of Moses (Leviticus 19:18).
In Matthew 22:37-40, we read: Jesus said to him, 'You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.' This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like it: 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets. Please tell me, which good works/works of faith could a Christian do which are completely detached from these two great commandments which are found in the law of Moses? (Deuteronomy 6:5; Leviticus 19:18). *Are there any genuine good works/works of faith that we do as Christians which fall outside of loving God and our neighbor as ourself?
You seem to confuse an act of faith bearing fruit or resulting in a healing with how we are saved. We are saved the moment that we place our faith (belief, trust, reliance) in Christ alone for salvation BEFORE any works of faith are accomplished. We are saved by grace through faith, not works, created in Christ Jesus UNTO/FOR good works (Ephesians 2:8-10) and not the other way around.
As far as "believing only," I believe "only in Christ" as the ALL-sufficient means of my salvation and not in works. A transformed life accompanied by works of faith have followed my believing in Christ, which is the fruit of salvation and not the means of salvation.
Are you talking about examples of someone receiving a blessing, healing or salvation? In regards to salvation, we are saved the moment that we believe and not at some point later, after we accomplish a list of works. Show me one verse in the Bible that says man is saved through faith AND WORKS.
In regards to blessings and healings, certainly.
I could say the same thing, yet God does not move in our lives to save us based on the merits of our works of faith, if that's what you are implying. I've seen many blessings as a result of works of faith though.
What were you believing and hoping in? If you are believing and hoping in Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of your salvation, you will receive eternal life, which is not a big fat nothing or failure. Believing in Christ for salvation works because Christ is the object of our faith and the means of our salvation. To say that believing in Christ for salvation doesn't work is to say that Christ is an insufficient Savior and we must add our works as a supplement to Christ's finished work of redemption in order to help Him save us. God forbid! I was once in a discussion with someone who attends the church of Christ and your saved by "these" works (works of faith) and just not "those" works (works of the law) bogus argument sounds very similar to what he said below:
"It is works of obedience that help to save us, not works of the law or works of merit."
hmm...
Luke 8:12 says ..believe and be saved. John 3:18 says He who believes in Him is not condemned.. Acts 10:43 says ..whoever believes in Him receives remission of sins. Acts 13:39 says All that believe are justified from all things.. Believes plus what? Whoops.
Through believing (John 3:15,16,18; Acts 10:43; 13:30; 16:31 etc..) we receive eternal life. The Greek words for faith "pistis" and believe "pisteuo" are two forms of the same word. "Pistis" is the noun form, "pisteuo" is the verb form. If you believe in Christ for salvation, then you have faith in Christ for salvation.
The word of faith is in our mouth and in our heart "together" (Romans 10:8) and confessing with our mouth that Jesus is Lord and believing in our heart that God raised Him from the dead are not two separate steps to salvation, but are chronologically together.
I understand how faith works and I also understand that we are saved through faith, not works, and NOT faith and works.
You are confused about what it means to believe and be saved and you are also confused about works.
The only thing you proved is that you are confused about what it means to receiving eternal life through believing in Jesus and that you are also confused about works.
If you have not placed your faith (belief, trust, reliance) in Jesus Christ alone for salvation, then you don't have authentic faith in Jesus and all the works in the world are not going to save you.
Works done with the intention of receiving eternal life based on accomplishing those works are not works of faith. Faith in works is not faith in Christ.
For you to continue to make a distinction between works of faith and good works and also try to dissect works of faith/good works from the moral aspect of the law is silly to say the least. When people set out to do that, they end up trying to teach that we are saved by "these" works (works of faith) and just not "those" works (works of the law) but it's all a big smoke screen.
*As I already explained to you in post #22:
In James 2:15-16, the example of a "work" that James gives is: "If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, and one of you says to them, "Depart in peace, be warmed and filled," but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit?" To give a brother or sister these things needed for the body would certainly be a "good work/work of faith" yet to neglect such a brother or sister and not give them the things needed for the body is to break the second great commandment "love your neighbor as yourself" (Matthew 22:39) as found written in the law of Moses (Leviticus 19:18).
In Matthew 22:37-40, we read: Jesus said to him, 'You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.' This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like it: 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets. Please tell me, which good works/works of faith could a Christian do which are completely detached from these two great commandments which are found in the law of Moses? (Deuteronomy 6:5; Leviticus 19:18). *Are there any genuine good works/works of faith that we do as Christians which fall outside of loving God and our neighbor as ourself?
You seem to confuse an act of faith bearing fruit or resulting in a healing with how we are saved. We are saved the moment that we place our faith (belief, trust, reliance) in Christ alone for salvation BEFORE any works of faith are accomplished. We are saved by grace through faith, not works, created in Christ Jesus UNTO/FOR good works (Ephesians 2:8-10) and not the other way around.
As far as "believing only," I believe "only in Christ" as the ALL-sufficient means of my salvation and not in works. A transformed life accompanied by works of faith have followed my believing in Christ, which is the fruit of salvation and not the means of salvation.
Are you talking about examples of someone receiving a blessing, healing or salvation? In regards to salvation, we are saved the moment that we believe and not at some point later, after we accomplish a list of works. Show me one verse in the Bible that says man is saved through faith AND WORKS.
In regards to blessings and healings, certainly.
I could say the same thing, yet God does not move in our lives to save us based on the merits of our works of faith, if that's what you are implying. I've seen many blessings as a result of works of faith though.
What were you believing and hoping in? If you are believing and hoping in Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of your salvation, you will receive eternal life, which is not a big fat nothing or failure. Believing in Christ for salvation works because Christ is the object of our faith and the means of our salvation. To say that believing in Christ for salvation doesn't work is to say that Christ is an insufficient Savior and we must add our works as a supplement to Christ's finished work of redemption in order to help Him save us. God forbid! I was once in a discussion with someone who attends the church of Christ and your saved by "these" works (works of faith) and just not "those" works (works of the law) bogus argument sounds very similar to what he said below:
"It is works of obedience that help to save us, not works of the law or works of merit."
hmm...
Luke 8:12 says ..believe and be saved. John 3:18 says He who believes in Him is not condemned.. Acts 10:43 says ..whoever believes in Him receives remission of sins. Acts 13:39 says All that believe are justified from all things.. Believes plus what? Whoops.
Through believing (John 3:15,16,18; Acts 10:43; 13:30; 16:31 etc..) we receive eternal life. The Greek words for faith "pistis" and believe "pisteuo" are two forms of the same word. "Pistis" is the noun form, "pisteuo" is the verb form. If you believe in Christ for salvation, then you have faith in Christ for salvation.
The word of faith is in our mouth and in our heart "together" (Romans 10:8) and confessing with our mouth that Jesus is Lord and believing in our heart that God raised Him from the dead are not two separate steps to salvation, but are chronologically together.
I understand how faith works and I also understand that we are saved through faith, not works, and NOT faith and works.
You are confused about what it means to believe and be saved and you are also confused about works.
The only thing you proved is that you are confused about what it means to receiving eternal life through believing in Jesus and that you are also confused about works.
If you have not placed your faith (belief, trust, reliance) in Jesus Christ alone for salvation, then you don't have authentic faith in Jesus and all the works in the world are not going to save you.
The Bible NOWHERE says that man is saved through faith AND works of faith.
No difference between the rendering of Parisian and that of James . Its men that cause that kind of division.
One faith, not twice (the faith of God) .One work, the work that comes from that same spirit of faith...(the work of God.) It is the work of God that we can believe him not that of our own selves. Trying to separate faith from works simply will not work. It’s all one and the same thing.
If we would have the faith of Christ (coming from), the faith of God in respect to men towards God Then we would be blaspheming the holy name by which we are called violating the commandment not to. We are to have no gods in the likeness of men before Him.
Ephesians 4:5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
The faith of one Lord.
From my experience many do not want to accredit God as having faith (a plan) coming from hearing God, not of our own selves in respect to the imagination of our own hearts . That would constitute a dead work coming from a dead faith. The example is found in Hebrew 6 :1
Faith is a two way street his work towards us working in us and as a result of His labor of love our amen towards him
The apostate Jews turned that upside down as if the work the church, said to him who by a work of His faith said; "let there be and there was" . This takes away the understanding of Christ's work of faith making the faith of God without effect..
Isaiah 29:16 Surely your turning of things upside down shall be esteemed as the potter's clay: for shall the work say of him that made it, He made me not? or shall the thing framed say of him that framed it, He had no understanding?
They are not works coming from the imaginations of one’s heart.. the faith of natural man .But rather our thoughts towards Him instead of in the work of His faith towards . The faith we exercise as a work comes from his faith working in us to both will and do His good pleasure. as a imputed righteousness.
So Abraham was saved by a work of God that worked in Abraham making the faith of God as to the work of God perfect as a imputed righteousness.
Works are required..
No difference between the rendering of Parisian and that of James . Its men that cause that kind of division.
One faith, not twice (the faith of God) .One work, the work that comes from that same spirit of faith...(the work of God.) It is the work of God that we can believe him not that of our own selves. Trying to separate faith from works simply will not work. It’s all one and the same thing.
If we would have the faith of Christ (coming from), the faith of God in respect to men towards God Then we would be blaspheming the holy name by which we are called violating the commandment not to. We are to have no gods in the likeness of men before Him.
Ephesians 4:5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
The faith of one Lord.
From my experience many do not want to accredit God as having faith (a plan) coming from hearing God, not of our own selves in respect to the imagination of our own hearts . That would constitute a dead work coming from a dead faith. The example is found in Hebrew 6 :1
Faith is a two way street his work towards us working in us and as a result of His labor of love our amen towards him
The apostate Jews turned that upside down as if the work the church, said to him who by a work of His faith said; "let there be and there was" . This takes away the understanding of Christ's work of faith making the faith of God without effect..
Isaiah 29:16 Surely your turning of things upside down shall be esteemed as the potter's clay: for shall the work say of him that made it, He made me not? or shall the thing framed say of him that framed it, He had no understanding?
They are not works coming from the imaginations of one’s heart.. the faith of natural man .But rather our thoughts towards Him instead of in the work of His faith towards . The faith we exercise as a work comes from his faith working in us to both will and do His good pleasure. as a imputed righteousness.
So Abraham was saved by a work of God that worked in Abraham making the faith of God as to the work of God perfect as a imputed righteousness.
Works are required..
Amen!
So you don't understand the distinction between faith AND works and you believe that man is saved through faith AND works?
Faith and works are not one and the same thing. Faith is faith and works are works. Faith is not works and works are not faith. Faith is the root of salvation and works are the fruit. No fruit at all would demonstrate there is no root.
Hebrews 11:1 - Faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen. Faith is not a list of works. The word translated faith is found in the Greek lexicon of the Strong’s Exhaustive Concordance and is defined as follows: #4102; pistis; persuasion, i.e. credence; moral conviction (of religious truth, or the truthfulness of God or a religious teacher), *especially reliance upon Christ for salvation*; abstractly, constancy in such profession; by extension, the system of religious (Gospel) truth itself:--assurance, belief, believe, faith, fidelity.
The word translated believe is from the greek word pisteuō which means "to have faith (in, upon, or with respect to, a person or thing), that is, credit; by implication to entrust (especially one’s spiritual well being to Christ).
It sounds to me like you are going through a lot of trouble in order to justify your false teaching that man is saved by works and you are also making this out to be much more complicated than it really is.
Abraham was not saved by works. Romans 4:2 - For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it (faith, not works) was accounted to him for righteousness. 4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt. 5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, 6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works.
Required for what? Man is not saved by works and works are the fruit, by product and demonstrative evidence of genuine faith, but not the essence of faith and not the means of our salvation.
So you don't understand the distinction between faith AND works and you believe that man is saved through faith AND works?
Faith and works are not one and the same thing. Faith is faith and works are works. Faith is not works and works are not faith. Faith is the root of salvation and works are the fruit. No fruit at all would demonstrate there is no root.
Hebrews 11:1 - Faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen. Faith is not a list of works. The word translated faith is found in the Greek lexicon of the Strong’s Exhaustive Concordance and is defined as follows: #4102; pistis; persuasion, i.e. credence; moral conviction (of religious truth, or the truthfulness of God or a religious teacher), *especially reliance upon Christ for salvation*; abstractly, constancy in such profession; by extension, the system of religious (Gospel) truth itself:--assurance, belief, believe, faith, fidelity.
The word translated believe is from the greek word pisteuō which means "to have faith (in, upon, or with respect to, a person or thing), that is, credit; by implication to entrust (especially one’s spiritual well being to Christ).
It sounds to me like you are going through a lot of trouble in order to justify your false teaching that man is saved by works and you are also making this out to be much more complicated than it really is.
Abraham was not saved by works. Romans 4:2 - For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it (faith, not works) was accounted to him for righteousness. 4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt. 5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, 6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works.
Required for what? Man is not saved by works and works are the fruit, by product and demonstrative evidence of genuine faith, but not the essence of faith and not the means of our salvation.
Believing is believing and working is working. See Romans 4:4-6. Faith is believing, trusting, relying and working is called works. Faith and believing are not defined as works and are separate from works as the root of salvation. Works are not the root of salvation, but they are the fruit of salvation.
The Greek words for faith "pistis" and believe "pisteuo" are two forms of the same word. "Pistis" is the noun form, "pisteuo" is the verb form. Nothing in the root meaning of either word carries any concept of works. If you believe in Christ/have faith in Christ for salvation then you are trusting in Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of your salvation. This faith/belief results in actions/works appropriate to the faith/belief (all genuine believers are fruitful, but they are not all equally fruitful) - but the actions/works are NOT INHERENT in the faith/belief.
I was recently in a discussion with a Roman Catholic who claims that the Roman Catholic church does not teach salvation by works, then afterwards, he contradicted himself by saying this below:
We ARE saved by faith - as long as you properly define "Faith".
Faith is NOT simply "believing". Faith INCLUDES: Being water baptized, Eating His body and drinking His blood/partaking the Lord's Supper during Mass, Works of mercy and charity, Obeying his commandments etc..
Of course, that is false. As we can see, this Roman Catholic is erroneously "defining" faith/believing "as works" and and makes "no distinction" between faith/believing AND works and neither do works-salvationists in general.
The Greek words for faith "pistis" and believe "pisteuo" are two forms of the same word. "Pistis" is the noun form, "pisteuo" is the verb form. Nothing in the root meaning of either word carries any concept of works. If you believe in Christ/have faith in Christ for salvation then you are trusting in Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of your salvation. This faith/belief results in actions/works appropriate to the faith/belief (all genuine believers are fruitful, but they are not all equally fruitful) - but the actions/works are NOT INHERENT in the faith/belief.
I was recently in a discussion with a Roman Catholic who claims that the Roman Catholic church does not teach salvation by works, then afterwards, he contradicted himself by saying this below:
We ARE saved by faith - as long as you properly define "Faith".
Faith is NOT simply "believing". Faith INCLUDES: Being water baptized, Eating His body and drinking His blood/partaking the Lord's Supper during Mass, Works of mercy and charity, Obeying his commandments etc..
Of course, that is false. As we can see, this Roman Catholic is erroneously "defining" faith/believing "as works" and and makes "no distinction" between faith/believing AND works and neither do works-salvationists in general.
From my experiences many simply do not to accredit God as having faith or even needing it . I think we all know where that comes from.(the garden in the beginning.) You shall surely not die
Its the other way around. You seem to be using the natural (no faith) to reason against the faith of God. Ask yourself what if some do not believe? Will their unbelief (no faith) make the faith of God without effect or without works, seeing to effect something is to work it out according to plan (faith)
Christ’s works as a labor of His love give life to Christ’s faith, as it is written. His faith is living and not dead or else it could not work..
We are saved by Christ’s work of faith. If we would have the faith of Christ in respect to the works of Christ and give that work of faith to Abraham then we have blasphemed the holy name by which we are called heavenward. Leaving the faith of God out of the equation is to have other gods before Him in the likeness of men .
Abraham was justified by works but certainly not in respect to his own self . Dead works would be attributed to dead faith.
We have a living faith of Christ in these bodies of death but are never to assume it could be of us. .
We can see how the faith of God worked( wrought) with the faith of God and by God’s works His faith (belief) was made perfect.
Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. Jam 2:21
That is why that work of Christ was imputed to Abraham just as it was to Rahab the prostitute or any new creature as a righteousness of Christ, not a righteousness of a sinner.They will be found with none, zero.
It’s a carbon copy of Philippians 2:12
(Purple in parenthesis) my comment.
For it is God which worketh in you (Abraham and Rehab) both to will and to do of his good pleasure. Do all things without murmurings and disputings:Phi 2:13
Did Rahab or Abraham murmur when God moved them to believe by a work of His faith?
Is it about God having faith or the faithfulness of God? Romans 3:3 - What then? If some did not believe, their unbelief will not nullify the faithfulness of God, will it? (NASB)
As Paul said in Romans 3:3, if some do not believe, their unbelief will not nullify the faithfulness of God. You still seem to be confusing faith with works.
Why would Christ need faith, like we need faith, when He is God and knows all things? Works are produced from a living faith and not a dead faith. Believers have been made alive with Christ (by grace we have been saved - Ephesians 2:5).
We are saved by Christ's finished work of redemption. Romans 3:24 - being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus.
Romans 5:9 - Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him.
You sound really confused.
Abraham was justified by works in the sense that he was "shown to be righteous." Keep in mind that James is discussing the proof of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God (Romans 4:2-3).
Faith of Christ or faith in Christ? The faith of believers is alive because we are made alive together with Christ, as we see in Ephesians 2:5. Christ is our source of life.
Faith made perfect (or complete) by works means bring to maturity, carry to the end, to complete like love in 1 John 4:18. It doesn't mean that Abraham was finally saved based on his works in Genesis 22. When Abraham performed the work of offering up Isaac on the altar in Genesis 22; he fulfilled the expectations created by the pronouncement of his faith in Genesis 15:6.
Once again, faith made perfect (or complete) by works means bring to maturity, carry to the end, to complete like love in 1 John 4:18. It doesn't mean that Abraham was finally saved based on his works in Genesis 22. When Abraham performed the work of offering up Isaac on the altar in Genesis 22; he fulfilled the expectations created by the pronouncement of his faith in Genesis 15:6.
In James 2:21, notice closely that James does not say that Abraham's work of offering up Isaac on the altar resulted in God's accounting Abraham as righteous. The accounting of Abraham's faith as righteousness was made in Genesis 15:6, many years before his work of offering up Isaac on the altar recorded in Genesis 22.
The work of Abraham did not have some kind of intrinsic merit to save his soul, but it proved or manifested the genuineness of his faith. This is the sense in which Abraham was justified by works, "shown to be righteous" and NOT accounted as righteous (Romans 4:2-3).
Believers are found in Him (Christ) not having their own righteousness, which is from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith (Philippians 3:9). God imputes righteousness apart from works (Romans 4:6).
God works in believers both to will and to do of His good pleasure, but this does not mean that believers sit by passively and do nothing and God does all the work.
Moved them to believe by a work of His faith?
As Paul said in Romans 3:3, if some do not believe, their unbelief will not nullify the faithfulness of God. You still seem to be confusing faith with works.
Why would Christ need faith, like we need faith, when He is God and knows all things? Works are produced from a living faith and not a dead faith. Believers have been made alive with Christ (by grace we have been saved - Ephesians 2:5).
We are saved by Christ's finished work of redemption. Romans 3:24 - being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus.
Romans 5:9 - Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him.
You sound really confused.
Abraham was justified by works in the sense that he was "shown to be righteous." Keep in mind that James is discussing the proof of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God (Romans 4:2-3).
Faith of Christ or faith in Christ? The faith of believers is alive because we are made alive together with Christ, as we see in Ephesians 2:5. Christ is our source of life.
Faith made perfect (or complete) by works means bring to maturity, carry to the end, to complete like love in 1 John 4:18. It doesn't mean that Abraham was finally saved based on his works in Genesis 22. When Abraham performed the work of offering up Isaac on the altar in Genesis 22; he fulfilled the expectations created by the pronouncement of his faith in Genesis 15:6.
Once again, faith made perfect (or complete) by works means bring to maturity, carry to the end, to complete like love in 1 John 4:18. It doesn't mean that Abraham was finally saved based on his works in Genesis 22. When Abraham performed the work of offering up Isaac on the altar in Genesis 22; he fulfilled the expectations created by the pronouncement of his faith in Genesis 15:6.
In James 2:21, notice closely that James does not say that Abraham's work of offering up Isaac on the altar resulted in God's accounting Abraham as righteous. The accounting of Abraham's faith as righteousness was made in Genesis 15:6, many years before his work of offering up Isaac on the altar recorded in Genesis 22.
The work of Abraham did not have some kind of intrinsic merit to save his soul, but it proved or manifested the genuineness of his faith. This is the sense in which Abraham was justified by works, "shown to be righteous" and NOT accounted as righteous (Romans 4:2-3).
Believers are found in Him (Christ) not having their own righteousness, which is from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith (Philippians 3:9). God imputes righteousness apart from works (Romans 4:6).
God works in believers both to will and to do of His good pleasure, but this does not mean that believers sit by passively and do nothing and God does all the work.
Moved them to believe by a work of His faith?
Hi thanks for the reply.
I would offer Christ’s work of faith is the root of His salvation he provides the good ground to plant the good seed . In that way only God is good. . We are the fruit of his work of faith as His labor of love.
His faith that he works out causes wonders .You could say he created the seven wonders of the world in that way.His faith is the greatest wonder. Its why we marvel for our tresspasses he paid the full wage, as it does work in the believer so we can belive Him not seen. John 6 informs us it is the work of God working in us that we can believe. No work of God no belief in God
Can’t separate works from faith .Faith is a work or labor of love. No way to reconcile the difference men try and put between the words (faith or works). Pitting James against Paul is pitting James against Paul .
There is one author of one faith of the scripture it is neither Paul nor James you or I.
By the faith of our faithful Creator in his plan of faith he exercised it and said as a work : “Let there be” and there was.
He alone has a supernatural faith that can create and love the object he has created giving spirit life to make it possible to respond to His Holy Spirit of faith.
It is how he wills things in to existence as a faithful Creator. As he works out his plan of faith it both will sand performs that which he had in mind.
You could say as he works in us to both will and do his good pleasure we can suffer according to His will. No will of God no suffering with him.
1Peter 4:19 Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls to him in well doing, as unto a faithful Creator.
Its why we have the warning at the beginning of James 2 .So that we do not attribute the work of Christ’s faith to any person .
Its conclusion informs us in doing so men blaspheme the holy name of God , by giving over that work to another persons plan of faith (believing). Like with the two examples Abraham and Rehab.
It becomes will men obey the commandment not to blaspheme the holy name of God. ?
Jam 2:1 My brethren, have not the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory, with respect of persons.
Blasphemy is to attribute the works of one to another stealing the author of the works. You could call it Plagiarism
Jam 2:7 Do not they blaspheme that worthy name by the which ye are called?
I think after that can be clear the rest of James 2 becomes self evident as to "whose" faith in view is doing the work making the faith perfect/complete.
I would offer Christ’s work of faith is the root of His salvation he provides the good ground to plant the good seed . In that way only God is good. . We are the fruit of his work of faith as His labor of love.
His faith that he works out causes wonders .You could say he created the seven wonders of the world in that way.His faith is the greatest wonder. Its why we marvel for our tresspasses he paid the full wage, as it does work in the believer so we can belive Him not seen. John 6 informs us it is the work of God working in us that we can believe. No work of God no belief in God
Can’t separate works from faith .Faith is a work or labor of love. No way to reconcile the difference men try and put between the words (faith or works). Pitting James against Paul is pitting James against Paul .
There is one author of one faith of the scripture it is neither Paul nor James you or I.
By the faith of our faithful Creator in his plan of faith he exercised it and said as a work : “Let there be” and there was.
He alone has a supernatural faith that can create and love the object he has created giving spirit life to make it possible to respond to His Holy Spirit of faith.
It is how he wills things in to existence as a faithful Creator. As he works out his plan of faith it both will sand performs that which he had in mind.
You could say as he works in us to both will and do his good pleasure we can suffer according to His will. No will of God no suffering with him.
1Peter 4:19 Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls to him in well doing, as unto a faithful Creator.
Its why we have the warning at the beginning of James 2 .So that we do not attribute the work of Christ’s faith to any person .
Its conclusion informs us in doing so men blaspheme the holy name of God , by giving over that work to another persons plan of faith (believing). Like with the two examples Abraham and Rehab.
It becomes will men obey the commandment not to blaspheme the holy name of God. ?
Jam 2:1 My brethren, have not the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory, with respect of persons.
Blasphemy is to attribute the works of one to another stealing the author of the works. You could call it Plagiarism
Jam 2:7 Do not they blaspheme that worthy name by the which ye are called?
I think after that can be clear the rest of James 2 becomes self evident as to "whose" faith in view is doing the work making the faith perfect/complete.
Thanks
Its the faithfulness of His work that he works in sinners to both will and do His good pleasure. Removing the faith of God from the picture as the work of God is the cause of the fall.. men put their faith in respect to that seen the creature, doing the pleasure of the will of the father of lies. Not having the faith of Him unseen. God did not want them to learn by experience but rather trust the voice of Him who remains unseen.
Its the faithfulness of His work that he works in sinners to both will and do His good pleasure. Removing the faith of God from the picture as the work of God is the cause of the fall.. men put their faith in respect to that seen the creature, doing the pleasure of the will of the father of lies. Not having the faith of Him unseen. God did not want them to learn by experience but rather trust the voice of Him who remains unseen.
You keep saying Christ's faith as if we have no faith at all. In 1 Peter 1:9, we read - receiving the end of YOUR (not Christ's) faith--the salvation of your souls. Christ is the author and finisher of our faith (Hebrews 12:2), but it's still OUR faith in Christ that saves us.
"Work of God/what God requires" in John 6:29 does not imply that WE do not believe in Him whom He has sent. Although we are commanded to believe and will be held accountable for unbelief (John 3:18), saving faith is never exclusively a matter of human decision. Unless the Father draws us (John 6:44) and enables us/unless it has been granted to him by My Father (John 6:65) we would NEVER come to believe in Christ for salvation all by ourselves.
The approach of the soul to Christ is initiated by the Father, but He doesn't force us to choose Christ, we must choose Him. The impulse to faith in Christ comes from God.
Faith is the root of salvation and works are the fruit. It sounds to me like you are trying to make BOTH faith AND works the root of salvation and it also sounds like you are DEFINING faith as WORKS. Common error among works-salvationists.
I'm not pitting James against Paul at all. I am properly harmonizing scripture with scripture. In 1 Thessalonians 1:3, notice the words "work of" faith, "labor of" love and "patience of" hope in 1 Thessalonians 1:3.
These are the practical outworking of the Thessalonians' conversion. The "work" the Thessalonians do is a "result or consequence of" their faith. So too their "labor" flows from love and their "endurance" comes from hope. *Work "of" faith does not mean that faith in essence is the work accomplished.
Hebrews 11:1 - Faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen. Their work is a result or consequence "of" their faith. The work done is "of" faith or done "out of" faith. Faith was already established at conversion and then the work "followed" as a result or consequence "of" faith. You are trying to turn work "of" faith into work "is" faith. You make no distinction between faith AND works that "follow" as a "result of" faith.
Christ is the author and finisher of OUR faith. (Hebrews 12:2)
What church do you attend?
There is a difference between God's will for us to BECOME saved (John 6:40) and God's will for us AFTER we have been saved through faith.
Are you one of those "KJV only" people? James 2:1 - My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. (NASB)
Eisegesis - is the process of interpreting a text or portion of text in such a way that the process introduces one's own presuppositions, agendas, or biases into and onto the text.
Faith "of" our Lord Jesus Christ simply means faith "in" our Lord Jesus Christ, as we see in numerous translations - (HCSB; ESV; NASB; NCV; NIV; NRS). James 2 is discussing "our" faith, not Christ's faith, as if Christ needs faith in Himself in order to save Himself.
"Work of God/what God requires" in John 6:29 does not imply that WE do not believe in Him whom He has sent. Although we are commanded to believe and will be held accountable for unbelief (John 3:18), saving faith is never exclusively a matter of human decision. Unless the Father draws us (John 6:44) and enables us/unless it has been granted to him by My Father (John 6:65) we would NEVER come to believe in Christ for salvation all by ourselves.
The approach of the soul to Christ is initiated by the Father, but He doesn't force us to choose Christ, we must choose Him. The impulse to faith in Christ comes from God.
Faith is the root of salvation and works are the fruit. It sounds to me like you are trying to make BOTH faith AND works the root of salvation and it also sounds like you are DEFINING faith as WORKS. Common error among works-salvationists.
I'm not pitting James against Paul at all. I am properly harmonizing scripture with scripture. In 1 Thessalonians 1:3, notice the words "work of" faith, "labor of" love and "patience of" hope in 1 Thessalonians 1:3.
These are the practical outworking of the Thessalonians' conversion. The "work" the Thessalonians do is a "result or consequence of" their faith. So too their "labor" flows from love and their "endurance" comes from hope. *Work "of" faith does not mean that faith in essence is the work accomplished.
Hebrews 11:1 - Faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen. Their work is a result or consequence "of" their faith. The work done is "of" faith or done "out of" faith. Faith was already established at conversion and then the work "followed" as a result or consequence "of" faith. You are trying to turn work "of" faith into work "is" faith. You make no distinction between faith AND works that "follow" as a "result of" faith.
Christ is the author and finisher of OUR faith. (Hebrews 12:2)
What church do you attend?
There is a difference between God's will for us to BECOME saved (John 6:40) and God's will for us AFTER we have been saved through faith.
Are you one of those "KJV only" people? James 2:1 - My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. (NASB)
Eisegesis - is the process of interpreting a text or portion of text in such a way that the process introduces one's own presuppositions, agendas, or biases into and onto the text.
Faith "of" our Lord Jesus Christ simply means faith "in" our Lord Jesus Christ, as we see in numerous translations - (HCSB; ESV; NASB; NCV; NIV; NRS). James 2 is discussing "our" faith, not Christ's faith, as if Christ needs faith in Himself in order to save Himself.