Speaking in tongues?!

[CS1]

So you really believe that those who disagree with you are immature, ignorant and in error?

You are correct the word of God is clear.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

I never said that. You continue to make self absorbed statements pertaining to what you think one has said. I never said anything about those who disagree with me. Please try to keep my words in context . So I will, explain who "those" are for you so you will know and have no doubt:

Those :

1. UPC/Apostolic aka oneness they are in error , or immature or ignorant.
2. Those who use source other than the Bible to prove context of the " Gifts of the Holy Spirit "
3. Those who say the gifts of the Holy Spirit are not for today
4. Those who say you have to speak in tongues to be saved
5. those who teach you have to speak in tongues to be saved or you are not saved if you do not speak in tongues
6. Those who say tongues is of the devil
7. Those who label denominations doctrine incorrectly.

Now IF you fit into any of the above 1-7 points then yes, you are correct; I am speak to you . Yes The Word of God is clear the Gifts of the Holy Spirit are real and for today and HE the Holy Spirit knows full well how they are to be used as HE the Holy Spirit explained it in the chapters of 1cor 12,13, and 14 and guess what you can disagree with me and it's ok

God Bless I hope now you know who " Those" are

 

[DJ2]

So you are of the God is dead movement?

Is this your defense? Do you have no answer as to why these supposedly overt events are not at all overt? Why so many claims of overt events but no descernible evidence? Do you normally reason this way?

 

[DJ2]

I think I explained as to my understanding of what the poster was calling immature. Did I call you immature? Do you think you are immature?

"So are you of the God is dead Movement" You wrote it, you are the poster now defend it.

Are those who do not believe that we are currently living in a age of the miraculous such as the 1st century, part of a God is dead movement? You wrote it, defend it.

He who claims, proves.

 

[notuptome]

I never said that. You continue to make self absorbed statements pertaining to what you think one has said. I never said anything about those who disagree with me. Please try to keep my words in context . So I will, explain who "those" are for you so you will know and have no doubt:

Those :

1. UPC/Apostolic aka oneness they are in error , or immature or ignorant.
2. Those who use source other than the Bible to prove context of the " Gifts of the Holy Spirit "
3. Those who say the gifts of the Holy Spirit are not for today
4. Those who say you have to speak in tongues to be saved
5. those who teach you have to speak in tongues to be saved or you are not saved if you do not speak in tongues
6. Those who say tongues is of the devil
7. Those who label denominations doctrine incorrectly.

Now IF you fit into any of the above 1-7 points then yes, you are correct; I am speak to you . Yes The Word of God is clear the Gifts of the Holy Spirit are real and for today and HE the Holy Spirit knows full well how they are to be used as HE the Holy Spirit explained it in the chapters of 1cor 12,13, and 14 and guess what you can disagree with me and it's ok

God Bless I hope now you know who " Those" are

So now I am also self absorbed?

There is quite a bit of ambiguity in your list so many might see different parts of it differently than you.

Until you or someone else makes a substantive case for Pentecostal or charismatic doctrine from the bible I will continue to disagree with those folks. Hopefully in a peaceful manner but the "those" are quite sensitive on this subject.

The word of God is clear that the gifts of the Holy Spirit are for today. What is less than clear is the case for tongues, knowledge and prophecy.

Respectfully submitted.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[CS1]

So now I am also self absorbed?

There is quite a bit of ambiguity in your list so many might see different parts of it differently than you.

Until you or someone else makes a substantive case for Pentecostal or charismatic doctrine from the bible I will continue to disagree with those folks. Hopefully in a peaceful manner but the "those" are quite sensitive on this subject.

The word of God is clear that the gifts of the Holy Spirit are for today. What is less than clear is the case for tongues, knowledge and prophecy.

Respectfully submitted.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

yes I do think you are self Absorbed at least now you know one thing I have actually said instead of conjecturing or taking what I have said out of Context

I do not have to make substantive case for pentecostals or charismatics nor more than I would do for a Baptist. The substance in context to the Gifts of the Holy Spirit as you have been told(and shown) many times is found in the authoritative word of God

Specifically 1 Corinthians chapters 12, 13, and 14. The Holy Spirit is still with us and will never leave us John Gospel chapter 14 and 16 very clear of this . The Holy Spirit is God who is the same yesterday today and forever therefore The Holy Spirit is here today and so are all the Gifts of the Holy Spirit for today.

No where in the Bible does it say "the gifts are not for today". No where. Still waiting for you to show me that one you have not.

So those who can't prove that point Biblically has tried to interject paganism, devil worship , and toe tag anyone who says The Holy Spirit has used them in the gifts outlined in 1Corinthian 12, 13 and 14 as not of God.
I disagree it is very clear all the gifts are for today.
can you speak about those who are in error yep sure can, can you speak about those who misuse the gifts ? Yep sure can
does the false teaching, error , immaturity, and ignorance in using the gifts or not believing they are for today make them to no effect or The Word of God untrue ? NO.

that is the difference The Word of God is true and man misuses the Gifting of God everyday. and Yet the gifting of God is used correctly too everyday

 

[Enow]

Babylon is Iraq. Allah. The rising flood trying to overtake the world whose god is really the prince of the air.

man...

Referring to mystery Babylon in Revelation. Not the same thing as regular Babylon that is found in the world as you have pointed out.

 

[Enow]

nope you are reading into it; and saying not what has been said

By saying reading into it, are you validating that it is written correctly?

Pentecostalism or Classical Pentecostalism is a renewal movement[SUP][1][/SUP] within Protestant[SUP][2][/SUP] Christianity that places special emphasis on a direct personal experience of God through the baptism with the Holy Spirit

Charles Parham, an American evangelist and faith healer, began teaching that speaking in tongues was the Bible evidence of Spirit baptism. The three-year-long Azusa Street Revival, founded and led by William J. Seymour in Los Angeles, California, resulted in the spread of Pentecostalism throughout the United States and the rest of the world as visitors carried the Pentecostal experience back to their home churches or felt called to the mission field. While virtually all Pentecostal denominations trace their origins to Azusa Street, the movement has experienced a variety of divisions and controversies.

Tell me how believers cannot reading to it as you suggest I am doing? You guys both claim Spirit filling, but originally it was that speaking in tongues was evidence of Spirit baptism. So am I reading into it or not that this is the claim to having the Pentecostal experience?

Just curious about why you say I was reading into it. Do they have it right or not?

and FYI Wikipedia is not a reliable source try 1cor chapter 12,13, 14 the " gifts of the Holy Spirit" . The word of God is authoritative not Wikipedia . Your post did not mention it but those here did therefore the discussion can be made about it can it not ? due to the fact the issues with the gift of Tongues as stated by some who have posted.

The origin of the history of the Pentecostal churches is not in the Bible. And I told you to correct me if it is wrong and for you guys to correct it at Wikipedia for what greater witness is that to the world & other believers than Wikipedia? You guys are using christian forums, and others use Youtube, so why not use Wikipedia for giving an accurate representation of the history of the Pentecostal churches?

But you being a moderator, if you do not have time for it, I understand, but I had not originally mention Pentecostals that you & Nehemiah6 had claimed that I had done so. I said "anyone".

So how was I reading into it when tongues was evidence of Spirit baptism as being the Pentecostal experience? How can I not read into it? How do I know that filled with the Spirit as you had claimed and Spirit baptism as per Wikipedia is one and the same to you for which tongues is evidence of ?

I "think" Nehemiah6 would see that as different altogether, and may be see you guys are really saying the same thing after all. I guess you have to ask him.

 

[CS1]

By saying reading into it, are you validating that it is written correctly?



Tell me how believers cannot reading to it as you suggest I am doing? You guys both claim Spirit filling, but originally it was that speaking in tongues was evidence of Spirit baptism. So am I reading into it or not that this is the claim to having the Pentecostal experience?

Just curious about why you say I was reading into it. Do they have it right or not?






The origin of the history of the Pentecostal churches is not in the Bible. And I told you to correct me if it is wrong and for you guys to correct it at Wikipedia for what greater witness is that to the world & other believers than Wikipedia? You guys are using christian forums, and others use Youtube, so why not use Wikipedia for giving an accurate representation of the history of the Pentecostal churches?

But you being a moderator, if you do not have time for it, I understand, but I had not originally mention Pentecostals that you & Nehemiah6 had claimed that I had done so. I said "anyone".

So how was I reading into it when tongues was evidence of Spirit baptism as being the Pentecostal experience? How can I not read into it? How do I know that filled with the Spirit as you had claimed and Spirit baptism as per Wikipedia is one and the same to you for which tongues is evidence of ?

I "think" Nehemiah6 would see that as different altogether, and may be see you guys are really saying the same thing after all. I guess you have to ask him.

let me be even more clear you are not properly exegesis in your understanding reading into is known As Eisegeses which is reading into ones own idea. I do not claim to be Spirit filled The word of God says I am because Jesus is my Lord and savior .

The historical context of the empowerment of the Holy Spirit to the Church is Biblical . right there in Acts 1:8 and Acts chapter 2 . You have an issue with Pentecostals , that is your hang up. I prefer to talk about what the Word of God say about the topic also Biblical found in 1cor 12, 13, and 14 chapters. Enow as I said you did not mention the word "Pentecostals" however, it was by other here .

The reason why it is called a "Pentecostal experience" is because it is found in the Book of Acts. And repeated many times. just like salvation and water baptism.

 

[Dino246]

... I do not claim to be Spirit filled The word of God says I am because Jesus is my Lord and savior .

I really like the way you put this.

 

[mcubed]

I used to go to a Pentecostal church and left cause I can't accept speaking in tongues. I understand it in Bible days cause of lack of translators but now? What would be the purpose and I think its weird speaking in an unknown language? Any opinions?

Speaking in tongues is not foreign languages only, but we pray in the Spirit, what He knows. True example: when I was married to my ex-husband he was chocking me. I thought I was going to die. Well, it started off he was running bath water, for no reason (I had told him I was going to leave him) I asked him if he was going to drowned me.? He looked up at me said no. Turned the water off, tackled me, kicked me in the ribs (broke 3 ribs right side) than began to choke me. For no reason he stopped,got into bed said if you want to run run now. I did not run because I know he could make it to the door before I could. He passed out, because he was drunk, then I left.

Next day, my best friend told me G-d told me to pray for you but I did not know what to pray so we just prayed in the Spirit for you for hours. I asked her what time. I was the same time, exactly, he was trying to kill me. There is NO DOUBT in my mind that is why I am alive today!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I have had similar situations, G-d told me to pray for someone did not know what to pray so I prayed in the Spirit asked for the interpretation and shocked. The Holy Spirit knows what is happening in His world, even when we don't, and will use us as an instrument to pray.

 

[jaybird88]

Speaking in tongues is not foreign languages only, but we pray in the Spirit, what He knows. True example: when I was married to my ex-husband he was chocking me. I thought I was going to die. Well, it started off he was running bath water, for no reason (I had told him I was going to leave him) I asked him if he was going to drowned me.? He looked up at me said no. Turned the water off, tackled me, kicked me in the ribs (broke 3 ribs right side) than began to choke me. For no reason he stopped,got into bed said if you want to run run now. I did not run because I know he could make it to the door before I could. He passed out, because he was drunk, then I left.

Next day, my best friend told me G-d told me to pray for you but I did not know what to pray so we just prayed in the Spirit for you for hours. I asked her what time. I was the same time, exactly, he was trying to kill me. There is NO DOUBT in my mind that is why I am alive today!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I have had similar situations, G-d told me to pray for someone did not know what to pray so I prayed in the Spirit asked for the interpretation and shocked. The Holy Spirit knows what is happening in His world, even when we don't, and will use us as an instrument to pray.

whats the difference between praying for someone and praying for someone in the angel language? same person in both prayers and you have no idea what they need other they are hurting and need the Lord.

unless someone speaks the angel language they can never be in the spirit? when you pray for the spirit to guide you before reading the bible, thats in the spirit, it has nothing to do with an angel language.

 

[KelbyofGod]

whats the difference between praying for someone and praying for someone in the angel language? same person in both prayers and you have no idea what they need other they are hurting and need the Lord.

unless someone speaks the angel language they can never be in the spirit? when you pray for the spirit to guide you before reading the bible, thats in the spirit, it has nothing to do with an angel language.

1Corinthians 14:14 "For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, ..."

That verse is stating that speaking in tongues IS prayer in the spirit. That's not being said as an argument, just pointing out the biblical statement of what's going on. I would say it this way "When I pray in tongues, his spirit in me is praying, but I don't know what's being said".

That's a different kind of prayer than praying with our native language (in my case English).

When praying in English, I'm praying what I think needs to be prayed, to the best of my knowledge and understanding...but the bible says in Romans 8:26 "...we know not what we should pray for as we ought:" which is why we need the kind of prayer that the Holy Spirit gives..(what some call an angel language.. I prefer prayer language).

When praying in the spirit tongue/language, I don't know what's being prayed but I know it's being prayed well because of 1Corinthians 14:17 "For thou verily givest thanks well,..." and Romans 8:26 "...the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered." plus verse 27 "And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he [the Spirit] maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God."

The spirit prayer isn't limited to my understanding of the situation.. it can pray better things.

Sorry for the length,
Kelby

 

[jaybird88]

1Corinthians 14:14 "For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, ..."

That verse is stating that speaking in tongues IS prayer in the spirit. That's not being said as an argument, just pointing out the biblical statement of what's going on. I would say it this way "When I pray in tongues, his spirit in me is praying, but I don't know what's being said".

That's a different kind of prayer than praying with our native language (in my case English).

When praying in English, I'm praying what I think needs to be prayed, to the best of my knowledge and understanding...but the bible says in Romans 8:26 "...we know not what we should pray for as we ought:" which is why we need the kind of prayer that the Holy Spirit gives..(what some call an angel language.. I prefer prayer language).

When praying in the spirit tongue/language, I don't know what's being prayed but I know it's being prayed well because of 1Corinthians 14:17 "For thou verily givest thanks well,..." and Romans 8:26 "...the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered." plus verse 27 "And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he [the Spirit] maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God."

The spirit prayer isn't limited to my understanding of the situation.. it can pray better things.

Sorry for the length,
Kelby

doesnt Paul say several times its important to use your mind when praying, in other words whats the point in praying in a language you dont understand when it does not improve you being as your mind is not fruitful. how do you know these languages in question are angel/spirit languages and not languages of this world. languages of this world would have been a pretty big deal to these guys being as they went everywhere from India, Africa to the UK.

 

[KelbyofGod]

doesnt Paul say several times its important to use your mind when praying, in other words whats the point in praying in a language you dont understand when it does not improve you being as your mind is not fruitful. how do you know these languages in question are angel/spirit languages and not languages of this world. languages of this world would have been a pretty big deal to these guys being as they went everywhere from India, Africa to the UK.

One point is that it's not necessary for you (or me) to understand what's being said because it's not US we are talking to. 1Cor_14:2 For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God:

2nd point is that even though WE don't understand, God does...and it's good prayer Rom_8:27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he {the Spirit} maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.

In 1 Corinthians 14 Paul was trying to clarify the purpose of each spiritual aspect, and saying we should use each for it's own assigned use. (not to choose one and despise the other). Kind of like a carpenter trying to explain what pliers do vs. a hammer's use. it's not that one is bad and the other good.

Concerning spiritual prayer(tongues), and prayer in the understanding(English)... each has it's purpose and Paul did both. 1Cor_14:15 What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.
As for "how do you know these languages in question are angel/spirit languages and not languages of this world"...truth is, we don't. When speaking in tongues, we allow it to happen(or not) but we don't choose the content. When I first got it, i would pray on purpose just to hear the different sounds/syllables/words that were coming out. Whether it was earthly languages or not wasn't clear to me. I personally wouldn't know the difference between an angelic language, or Swahili or Mandarin. And that's what I think God was having happen on the day of pentecost when the crowd came to see what was going on. I think that as they were praying in the spirit, the spirit was switching their words from one language to the next as a witness to the crowd....and the crowd bore witness that what was happening was godly. Acts 2:11 "...we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God."

 

[KelbyofGod]

in other words whats the point in praying in a language you dont understand when it does not improve you being as your mind is not fruitful

I forgot to answer the point of "it doesn't improve you"...

I think the bible is clear in stating that it does improve you.. 1Cor_14:4 He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself;

 

[jaybird88]

One point is that it's not necessary for you (or me) to understand what's being said because it's not US we are talking to. 1Cor_14:2 For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God:

then what would be the point of saying anything when it cant be understood?

2nd point is that even though WE don't understand, God does...and it's good prayer Rom_8:27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he {the Spirit} maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.

the Most High knows your thoughts as well as evry spoken language of this world. whats the angel language going to tell Him that He would not hear in your own language?

dont you think it a bit strange that every example of angels in scripture they are speaking in our language and not the "angel" language?

 

[jaybird88]

I forgot to answer the point of "it doesn't improve you"...

I think the bible is clear in stating that it does improve you.. 1Cor_14:4 He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself;

of course spreading the gospel to someone of another culture and language would improve the teacher.

give me an example of how the angel language improves someone.

 

[KelbyofGod]

then what would be the point of saying anything when it cant be understood?

It's only important that the hearer (God) understands... not other listeners (men).

 

[KelbyofGod]

the Most High knows your thoughts as well as evry spoken language of this world. whats the angel language going to tell Him that He would not hear in your own language?

The problem isn't with God's ability to hear in English, it's our inability to ask accurately in English. That's one purpose of praying in tongues... to pray the things we couldn't (and some actually wouldn't) pray in English.

I hope you'll forgive me for answering each point in a separate post. I'm just doing that so it's clear which point in a post is being addressed.

 

[jaybird88]

It's only important that the hearer (God) understands... not other listeners (men).

The problem isn't with God's ability to hear in English, it's our inability to ask accurately in English. That's one purpose of praying in tongues... to pray the things we couldn't (and some actually wouldn't) pray in English.

with respect does Jesus not cover this when teaching on prayer:

Matthew 6:8
Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him.

if your praying before bed and dont pray about some unfortunate accident that your unaware of being as it hasent happened yet, but you have faith that the Almighty will look over you, dont you think the Father will do exactly that?

I hope you'll forgive me for answering each point in a separate post. I'm just doing that so it's clear which point in a post is being addressed.

no worries