Speaking in tongues?!

[CS1]

I believe in the gospel of Jesus Christ and the tradition taught of us that we had received the sanctification of the Spirit and the belief of the truth at the calling of the gospel.

If any one wants to depart from faith in Jesus Christ in seeking to receive what they claim is the Holy Spirit apart from salvation by a sign of tongues, you do so in dishonoring the Lord Jesus Christ.

yea yea . no one has said that you assume they have. Tongues does not save you there you go . Please remember it was said by a Pentecostal tongues does not save you , nor do you have to speak in tongues to be saved. That is not what the Bible teaches nor does the Mainline Pentecostal denominations. I do not care what you have heard; that context(tongues to be saved/speak in tongue to be saved) is with UPC and apostolic churches and those churches are in error.

Salvation is in Christ alone saved by Grace through faith. Not of works less any man should boast. The Gifts of the Holy Spirit are for today they were taught by the Apostle Paul as God lead him to do. found in 1cor chapter 12, 13, and 14. I do not care what those of immaturity , ignorance and error say about it. The Word of God is clear .

 

[Endoscopy]

yea yea . no one has said that you assume they have. Tongues does not save you there you go . Please remember it was said by a Pentecostal tongues does not save you , nor do you have to speak in tongues to be saved. That is not what the Bible teaches nor does the Mainline Pentecostal denominations. I do not care what you have heard; that context(tongues to be saved/speak in tongue to be saved) is with UPC and apostolic churches and those churches are in error.

Salvation is in Christ alone saved by Grace through faith. Not of works less any man should boast. The Gifts of the Holy Spirit are for today they were taught by the Apostle Paul as God lead him to do. found in 1cor chapter 12, 13, and 14. I do not care what those of immaturity , ignorance and error say about it. The Word of God is clear .

Amen brother!!

 

[Nehemiah6]

If any one wants to depart from faith in Jesus Christ in seeking to receive what they claim is the Holy Spirit apart from salvation by a sign of tongues, you do so in dishonoring the Lord Jesus Christ.

That is not what Pentecostals teach at all. They too believe that salvation is by grace through faith. But they also believe that subsequently, the evidence of being filled with the Spirit is speaking in tongues. This is not the same as receiving the gift of the Holy Spirit and being born again.

 

[Dino246]

That is not what Pentecostals teach at all. They too believe that salvation is by grace through faith. But they also believe that subsequently, the evidence of being filled with the Spirit is speaking in tongues. This is not the same as receiving the gift of the Holy Spirit and being born again.

I've addressed this with Enow at least twice. It baffles me why he continues to use the phrase "by tongues" when nobody claims this (that I have seen).

 

[Endoscopy]

That is not what Pentecostals teach at all. They too believe that salvation is by grace through faith. But they also believe that subsequently, the evidence of being filled with the Spirit is speaking in tongues. This is not the same as receiving the gift of the Holy Spirit and being born again.

They need to read the love Chapter.

1 Corinthians 13New International Version (NIV)

13 If I speak in the tongues of men or of angels, but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. 2 If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. 3 If I give all I possess to the poor and give over my body to hardship that I may boast, but do not have love, I gain nothing.
4 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5 It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs.6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.
8 Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues,they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10 but when completeness comes, what is in part disappears. 11 When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put the ways of childhood behind me. 12 For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.
13 And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.

 

[wolfwint]

That is not what Pentecostals teach at all. They too believe that salvation is by grace through faith. But they also believe that subsequently, the evidence of being filled with the Spirit is speaking in tongues. This is not the same as receiving the gift of the Holy Spirit and being born again.

Yes, and this" the evidence of beeing filled with the spirit is speaking in tongues" is the problem. Because this means out of pentecostal and charismatics no christians are filled with the Holy Spirit. This is a false doctrine. What signs are there to be filled with the spirit ? High morality standart? Be obiedient to the Lord?. The believers in Corinth seems not to be obidient to the Lord and unmorality is accepted in the church, but it seems that many have the gift of speaking in tongues. So it is not a scripture based teaching that a spirit filled person has the gift of speaking in tongues.

 

[EarnestQ]

In Acts two, Luke defines "tongues" as supernaturally speaking in a known language, without training, for the purpose of cross cultural evangelism. In Acts 10 and 19, he does not redefine it so the assumption can only be that the speakers are speaking in known languages.

The only other places tongues are mentioned are 1 Cor 12, 13 and 14.

In 1 Cor 12, it also mentions interpretation of tongues. One cannot interpret gibberish so the expectation is that tongues means known languages. This expectation remains in Chapter 13. When Paul talks about speaking in the tongues of angels, he is using hyperbole. He is saying, "even if I (hypothetically) spoke in the tongues of angels, if I don't have love", I am only a loud noise.

In chapter 14, he refers to not speaking in tongues unless there is an interpreter handy, so again, he is talking about a known language, not meaningless syllables strewn together.

Nevertheless, I will grant that there is a place for "prayer language tongues" (as opposed to true language tongues). It is possible to express our emotions to God without using words. One may choose to play a piano as an emotional expression to God. There may even be room for "righteous" dancing before the Lord as a way of expressing ones emotions to God. In that view, just making a "noise" to God can be honoring to Him, even to the same extent that we may at times "groan" to God as a part of our prayer to Him.

A study of "baptism" in the New Covenant does not support the assertion that "prayer language tongues" is a sign of true Spirit baptism. Anyone who is saved is baptized in Christ. I can't say if there is a "second blessing" after salvation. If so it may be when the person submits to the full Lordship of Christ. If so, perhaps some people experience "ecstatic utterance" at this point which we can call prayer language tongues.

 

[notuptome]

yea yea . no one has said that you assume they have. Tongues does not save you there you go . Please remember it was said by a Pentecostal tongues does not save you , nor do you have to speak in tongues to be saved. That is not what the Bible teaches nor does the Mainline Pentecostal denominations. I do not care what you have heard; that context(tongues to be saved/speak in tongue to be saved) is with UPC and apostolic churches and those churches are in error.

Salvation is in Christ alone saved by Grace through faith. Not of works less any man should boast. The Gifts of the Holy Spirit are for today they were taught by the Apostle Paul as God lead him to do. found in 1cor chapter 12, 13, and 14. I do not care what those of immaturity , ignorance and error say about it. The Word of God is clear .

So you really believe that those who disagree with you are immature, ignorant and in error?

You are correct the word of God is clear.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[Dino246]

In Acts two, Luke defines "tongues" as supernaturally speaking in a known language, without training, for the purpose of cross cultural evangelism. In Acts 10 and 19, he does not redefine it so the assumption can only be that the speakers are speaking in known languages.

Generally, I agree with your post. I only disagree with your assertion on the purpose of tongues, because Acts 2 is narrative and doesn't explicitly define the purpose. Further, the cases later in Acts don't have any cross-cultural evangelism component.

 

[KelbyofGod]

Paul does not forbid or decry speaking in tongues without an interpreter. He says that in order for the church to be edified, there must be an interpretation; only speaking tongues aloud in the assembly is conditional. Without one, what is the tongue-speaker to do? He is to keep it between himself and God - privately.

If speaking in tongues without an interpreter were "not Biblical" as you put it, there would need to be a direct admonition not to speak in tongues at all rather than an admonition to keep it to oneself, and the direction to "pray that he might interpret" would be meaningless.

Dino246, You said that very well.

 

[KelbyofGod]

I have never been involved in it.

Endoscopy,
You sound like you have an open heart on the matter. If you haven't received it yourself, you may need to keep after God until you get it. As much as some say otherwise, the play-by-play examples in the bible show that receiving the Holy Ghost (with tongues) doesn't automatically come at the moment of belief. {Yes, I know that may sound like blasphemy, but I'm believing you are prudent enough to open your bible and see.}

Please read (as one example) Acts 8:5-17, paying attention to when the bible says they believed (v.12) ...as compared to when the bible says they received the Holy Ghost (v.17).

And the bible even clearly states that they had not received the Holy Ghost between these two verses (v,16).

Although it doesn't clarify in this example HOW it was known that the Holy Ghost was given, it does clarify that exact point in Acts 10:44-47:

Act 10:44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word. Act 10:45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost. <--(and HOW did they know?)
Act 10:46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. ... <--(That's how they knew.)

Thanks,
Kelby ([email protected])

 

[Enow]

I had posted:

"I believe in the gospel of Jesus Christ and the tradition taught of us that we had received the sanctification of the Spirit and the belief of the truth at the calling of the gospel.

If any one wants to depart from faith in Jesus Christ in seeking to receive what they claim is the Holy Spirit apart from salvation by a sign of tongues, you do so in dishonoring the Lord Jesus Christ."

I did not say Pentecostals.

yea yea . no one has said that you assume they have. Tongues does not save you there you go . Please remember it was said by a Pentecostal tongues does not save you , nor do you have to speak in tongues to be saved. That is not what the Bible teaches nor does the Mainline Pentecostal denominations. I do not care what you have heard; that context(tongues to be saved/speak in tongue to be saved) is with UPC and apostolic churches and those churches are in error.

Salvation is in Christ alone saved by Grace through faith. Not of works less any man should boast. The Gifts of the Holy Spirit are for today they were taught by the Apostle Paul as God lead him to do. found in 1cor chapter 12, 13, and 14. I do not care what those of immaturity , ignorance and error say about it. The Word of God is clear .

That is not what Pentecostals teach at all. They too believe that salvation is by grace through faith. But they also believe that subsequently, the evidence of being filled with the Spirit is speaking in tongues. This is not the same as receiving the gift of the Holy Spirit and being born again.

Since you guys are bringing up Pentecostals, Oneness Pentecostals and some hyper Charismatic groups teaches it.

Are Tongues a necessary sign of salvation? | Youth Apologetics Training

Not the same thing as Pentecostals though.

Looking at the history of Pentecostalism....at Wikipedia... yeah I know.. not exactly reliable...but any correction, feel free to give... and do it at Wikipedia too.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pentecostalism

Pentecostalism or Classical Pentecostalism is a renewal movement[SUP][1][/SUP] within Protestant[SUP][2][/SUP] Christianity that places special emphasis on a direct personal experience of God through the baptism with the Holy Spirit

Charles Parham, an American evangelist and faith healer, began teaching that speaking in tongues was the Bible evidence of Spirit baptism. The three-year-long Azusa Street Revival, founded and led by William J. Seymour in Los Angeles, California, resulted in the spread of Pentecostalism throughout the United States and the rest of the world as visitors carried the Pentecostal experience back to their home churches or felt called to the mission field. While virtually all Pentecostal denominations trace their origins to Azusa Street, the movement has experienced a variety of divisions and controversies.

So am I reading this right at that site? The Pentecostal experience is about speaking in tongues as Bible evidence of Spirit baptism?

Now it did say that movement has experienced a variety of divisions, and so I can accept that there must be some Pentecostals today that do not preach that, albeit, I do not know why they call themselves Pentecostals still, concerning their roots in history as per Wikipedia.

Anyway, my post did not mention Pentecostals, but I said "any one".

 

[DJ2]

The endless banter on this subject is rather telling about those who support the continuation of the 1st century age of the miraculous. The existence of the miraculous has no need of a scriptural defense, either supernatural events are happening as in the 1st century or they are not.

Defending a physical event with non-physical evidence is absurd. Believing manna is still falling from heaven and being confused as to why people doubt your word is just as absurd.

So to those who defend such nonsense as the belief that we are currently living and experiencing a time as the 1st century age of the miraculous, please use your god-given gift of common sense and admit that the emperor of the pentecostal movement is naked. To those wise enough to not wear the blinders this movement requires, keep count of your pearls.

 

[stonesoffire]

So you are of the God is dead movement?

 

[stonesoffire]

So you really believe that those who disagree with you are immature, ignorant and in error?

You are correct the word of God is clear.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

immature, ignorant, and in error...said in the most unaccusing manner.

One can be simple in faith, believing in the blood and the Cross...Passover. Ignorant or not have heard there is more. Error- there is such a thing as the "spirit of error".

Truth is that God hasn't changed. There was a dark period of time that happened soon after the temple being destroyed and the Jews scattered.

But, the revival started. Am not good in the history of the church. That's about all I care to know. Am more interested in what happened that I've experienced.

I was ignorant, immature, and in error until the day I was born again, then baptized by Holy Spirit, and began to learn what we have through Jesus. Heading for glory I hope. Or what some call the rapture. My hope is I will be here for it, otherwise will enter on my death.

Why, my question is to the saved by blood...why not Pentecost? Why refuse? Now some can receive both at conversion, it is true. And others is a second blessing.

My point is to not give up until you know that you know, you have the giftings of Holy Spirit. For there is how we minister to self, and to others. Out of His anointing.

 

[DJ2]

So you are of the God is dead movement?

By no means. God is alive and I await the return of His Son.

Are you of the God is dead if you don't believe our baseless claims movement?

And you call others immature?

 

[Enow]

The endless banter on this subject is rather telling about those who support the continuation of the 1st century age of the miraculous. The existence of the miraculous has no need of a scriptural defense, either supernatural events are happening as in the 1st century or they are not.

Defending a physical event with non-physical evidence is absurd. Believing manna is still falling from heaven and being confused as to why people doubt your word is just as absurd.

So to those who defend such nonsense as the belief that we are currently living and experiencing a time as the 1st century age of the miraculous, please use your god-given gift of common sense and admit that the emperor of the pentecostal movement is naked. To those wise enough to not wear the blinders this movement requires, keep count of your pearls.

Ever wonder why the phrase "mystery Babylon" was used in the Book of Revelation?

Its connection to language when it is a mystery should not be overlook nor how this "whore" sits on seven mountains that causes other to commit fornication by having a drink & getting drunk..by that wine and thus by that spirit.

Revelation 17:1And there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials, and talked with me, saying unto me, Come hither; I will shew unto thee the judgment of the great whore that sitteth upon many waters:[SUP] 2 [/SUP]With whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication.....[SUP]5 [/SUP]And upon her forehead was a name written, Mystery, Babylon The Great, The Mother Of Harlots And Abominations Of The Earth..........9.And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.

Some have contended that this was the Vatican as it does sits on seven mountains, supposedly.

Representing the RCC, it does teach to seek spiritual gifts but from the Holy Spirit. It is noted in one of their early church histories for which they claim to be of the RCC by reference, is how one of the so called early church fathers testified that because tongues were manifested "still" in the church, it was a sign that they were keeping the doctrines within the church well.

So I do recollect that as significant that the RCC was using tongues in the early days as a sign too, thus signifying tongues without interpretation since if that tongue came with interpretation, they would not be using it as a sign when Paul said tongues do not serve as signs to believers for anything.

Jesus said that His sheep will not follow a stranger's voice but His voice. That is why I see tongues without interpretation, assumed it is for private use, supposedly gained by apostasy is committing spiritual fornication by having another drink of what they believe was the One Spirit, but it was not as many others can have more drinks and be drunk by it; losing self control.

That mystery Babylon sits on many waters now as the vain & profane babbling has increased all over the world.

Signs of the times as the falling away from the faith is occurring in great droves where a disciple of His would have a hard time finding a place of fellowship without some of those heresy among them.

They defend tongues for private use gained by receiving what they believe was the Holy Spirit separate from salvation.... whereas I would defend the faith in Jesus Christ in the hopes that those who follow His voice, will not heed that other calling nor promotion to seek that kind of tongues and continue to remain as filled as promised at their salvation to be ready for the Bridegroom when He comes.

He is helping me to apply my faith not to worry about His sheep that follow His voice because they will not follow that stranger's voice which is tongues without interpretation for private use gained by apostasy.

 

[stonesoffire]

Babylon is Iraq. Allah. The rising flood trying to overtake the world whose god is really the prince of the air.

man...

 

[CS1]

I had posted:

"I believe in the gospel of Jesus Christ and the tradition taught of us that we had received the sanctification of the Spirit and the belief of the truth at the calling of the gospel.

If any one wants to depart from faith in Jesus Christ in seeking to receive what they claim is the Holy Spirit apart from salvation by a sign of tongues, you do so in dishonoring the Lord Jesus Christ."

I did not say Pentecostals.





Since you guys are bringing up Pentecostals, Oneness Pentecostals and some hyper Charismatic groups teaches it.

Are Tongues a necessary sign of salvation? | Youth Apologetics Training

Not the same thing as Pentecostals though.

Looking at the history of Pentecostalism....at Wikipedia... yeah I know.. not exactly reliable...but any correction, feel free to give... and do it at Wikipedia too.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pentecostalism





So am I reading this right at that site? The Pentecostal experience is about speaking in tongues as Bible evidence of Spirit baptism?

Now it did say that movement has experienced a variety of divisions, and so I can accept that there must be some Pentecostals today that do not preach that, albeit, I do not know why they call themselves Pentecostals still, concerning their roots in history as per Wikipedia.

Anyway, my post did not mention Pentecostals, but I said "any one".

nope you are reading into it; and saying not what has been said and FYI Wikipedia is not a reliable source try 1cor chapter 12,13, 14 the " gifts of the Holy Spirit" . The word of God is authoritative not Wikipedia . Your post did not mention it but those here did therefore the discussion can be made about it can it not ? due to the fact the issues with the gift of Tongues as stated by some who have posted.

 

[stonesoffire]

By no means. God is alive and I await the return of His Son.

Are you of the God is dead if you don't believe our baseless claims movement?

And you call others immature?

I think I explained as to my understanding of what the poster was calling immature. Did I call you immature? Do you think you are immature?