The end of the world is coming. What should we be looking for?

[abcdef]

Good morning Stones.

I believe Scripture has multiple depths of application. For example, in Ezekiel and Isaiah, the prophets are talking about the kings of Tyre and Babylon respectively, but they are also addressing the power behind those thrones, namely satan.

That is generally assumed.

If we have accepted Jesus, and have the Holy Spirit in us, certainly in one sense the Kingdom of God is within us. This in NO way excludes an actual, physical Kingdom on Earth.

Heb 9:1, "Then verily the first covenant had also ordinances of divine service, and a worldly sanctuary."

The 2nd covenant does not. Will you be looking for the earthly one? A place where they go through rituals as worship?

Heb 11:10, "For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God."

Shall we be looking for a city that has been built by men?

That is EXACTLY what we pray for when reciting the Lord's prayer. "Our Father who is in Heaven Hallowed be Your Name, YOUR KINGDOM COME, Your Will be done, on EARTH as it is in Heaven....."

When Jesus says, "your kingdom come", he is talking about the Father's kingdom, which is after the last resurrection. This phase of the kingdom is after Jesus delivers the kingdom up to the Father, after death is destroyed. 1 Cor 15:23-28.

Until then it is Christ's kingdom. When it is delivered up to the Father, then it is the Father's kingdom.

It is always the Father's kingdom, but He has given Jesus all power on heaven and earth, until the last enemy is destroyed Rev 20:14-15.

The earth referred to is the new earth of Rev 21:1-2.

Is His Will being done at all times on Earth, EVEN BY CHRISTIANS now? I don't see how that is occurring. Yes, some Christians are partially doing His Will now by spreading the Gospel, and other various works, but unless we want to go down the sinless perfectionism trail, HIS Will is NOT being perfectly done.

Have you seen the wretched state of this world? Why are we praying for His Will to be done on EARTH if it's already achieved

?

This is exactly why it talking about the new earth. Because as long as there is flesh, there will be sin. Jesus' prayer points to a time after this world.

Jesus told John to record what he SAW, NOT WHAT HE DREAMED! They are 2 distinct concepts. Just as those in the O.T. had trouble expressing the visions they saw, (Isaiah fumbled to try and describe how he SAW God in Heaven for instance) John struggled to describe some of things he SAW.

BUT he did NOT dream these visions up!

So unless imagery is expressly termed as an analogy, WE should NOT allegorize.

The Rev is filled with symbolism. Symbolic images taken from the OT. To deny the relationship with the OT, is to take the truth from it.

Symbols that stand for literal, known, entities.

 

[Willie-T]

Well there are a bunch of them here.

Who? Have they identified themselves so that you can make that statement as a fact...... Or do some people simply see some of the prophecies of the Bible as having already taken place? That is a far cry from Preterism. That is, "You don't agree with me, so I am going to stick a label on you."

 

[Locutus]

Plainword and meself are preterists WIllie - I would fall under Full PT. better known as Covenant Eschatology as against end of the world eschatology.

CE states that "the end" is about the end of the old covenant age rather than the end of the world and that's all the prophets spoke to.

 

[Willie-T]

That is generally assumed.



Heb 9:1, "Then verily the first covenant had also ordinances of divine service, and a worldly sanctuary."

The 2nd covenant does not. Will you be looking for the earthly one? A place where they go through rituals as worship?

Heb 11:10, "For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God."

Shall we be looking for a city that has been built by men?



When Jesus says, "your kingdom come", he is talking about the Father's kingdom, which is after the last resurrection. This phase of the kingdom is after Jesus delivers the kingdom up to the Father, after death is destroyed. 1 Cor 15:23-28.

Until then it is Christ's kingdom. When it is delivered up to the Father, then it is the Father's kingdom.

It is always the Father's kingdom, but He has given Jesus all power on heaven and earth, until the last enemy is destroyed Rev 20:14-15.

The earth referred to is the new earth of Rev 21:1-2.

?

This is exactly why it talking about the new earth. Because as long as there is flesh, there will be sin. Jesus' prayer points to a time after this world.



The Rev is filled with symbolism. Symbolic images taken from the OT. To deny the relationship with the OT, is to take the truth from it.

Symbols that stand for literal, known, entities.

I would have to say, "Symbolic language points to and, in context, indicates certain relationships." I cannot see symbolism used as a "code book" for specific and only, certain definite meanings of words whenever and wherever they are used. I think the key to understanding 98% of Biblical Symbolism is CONTEXT and RELATIVE ASSOCIATION.

 

[Willie-T]

Plainword and meself are preterists WIllie - I would fall under Full PT. better known as Covenant Eschatology as against end of the world eschatology.

CE states that "the end" is about the end of the old covenant age rather than the end of the world and that's all the prophets spoke to.

Do you believe Christ will ever return here?

 

[Ahwatukee]

Plainword and meself are preterists WIllie - I would fall under Full PT. better known as Covenant Eschatology as against end of the world eschatology.

CE states that "the end" is about the end of the old covenant age rather than the end of the world and that's all the prophets spoke to.

If you believe in covenant Eschatology opposed to the coming wrath of God and the Lord's return to the earth to end the age, you have a big surprise waiting for you! For the day of the Lord is coming where the literal wrath of God will be carried out via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, decimating the majority of the earths population and dismantling all human government.

How did you ever buy into the false teaching of covenant eschatology?

 

[Ahwatukee]

Plainword and meself are preterists WIllie - I would fall under Full PT. better known as Covenant Eschatology as against end of the world eschatology.

CE states that "the end" is about the end of the old covenant age rather than the end of the world and that's all the prophets spoke to.

Really?! That's all that the prophets spoke about, the end of covenant eschatology? You better go back and read everything regarding "the day of the Lord" because it does not support your theory. Here is what Zephaniah says regarding the end of the age:

"I will sweep away everything from the face of the earth," "When I destroy all mankind on the face of the earth," declares the LORD. "I will sweep away both man and beast; I will sweep away the birds in the sky and the fish in the sea-- and the idols that cause the wicked to stumble." "When I destroy all mankind on the face of the earth," declares the LORD"

The Lord is going to perform the above via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments. By the time the Lord returns, the majority of the earths population will have been decimated and all human government dismantled. For as the scripture states, if those days were allowed to go on any longer there would be no flesh left alive.

 

[Locutus]

Do you believe Christ will ever return here?

No I don't Wille, his presence is already with us in his people as a holy temple, no need for a temple based on dirt in the middle east.

Eph 2:20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;

Eph 2:21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord.

We are already in the "new heavens and earth" as spoken of by Isaiah and John in his revelation, where we are told that sinners and death still exist outside of the city the new Jerusalem.

 

[abcdef]

I would have to say, "Symbolic language points to and, in context, indicates certain relationships." I cannot see symbolism used as a "code book" for specific and only, certain definite meanings of words whenever and wherever they are used. I think the key to understanding 98% of Biblical Symbolism is CONTEXT and RELATIVE ASSOCIATION.

Context and relative association. True, true.

====

I think that people just don't take the time that they should to really study for themselves, and be independent of denominations and theories that are so ridged, that they can't be changed when the truth comes to light.

It takes time, and a lot of thinking, and study, with information and opinions that are helpful.

It's hard to find reliable commentaries and unbiased opinions these days.

====

There was a time, when some people had more study time, like in the winter. (It's snowing here now)

There was plenty of time to study the context then.

People who say, "I'll just take your word for it", are putting their eternal souls in jeopardy. (RCC)

As long as you have the passion, fire, for Jesus, His Word, and the truth, there is hope, because it will become the most important thing in your life. We can know the truth.

 

[Willie-T]

No I don't Wille, his presence is already with us in his people as a holy temple, no need for a temple based on dirt in the middle east.

Eph 2:20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;

Eph 2:21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord.

We are already in the "new heavens and earth" as spoken of by Isaiah and John in his revelation, where we are told that sinners and death still exist outside of the city the new Jerusalem.

I never said a word about a Temple being constructed or even setting up an Earthly Kingdom. I asked, basically, if anyone ever living on this celestial ball will ever see Jesus return here (in the air or on the ground) for any reason.

 

[abcdef]

Impressed by your answer, had in mind to mention, "To those looking for Him shall He appear the second time."
You said this better than I would have.

Heb 9:28, "So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation."

Think really hard about what this verse is saying.

Thank you stillness for this truth.

 

[Locutus]

I never said a word about a Temple being constructed or even setting up an Earthly Kingdom. I asked, basically, if anyone ever living on this celestial ball will ever see Jesus return here (in the air or on the ground) for any reason.

I realise you never mentioned a temple Wille - no, I don't believe anyone beyond his coming in the 1st century will see Jesus returning "in the air or on the ground".

That was accomplished a little after Paul wrote about it to the Thessalonians.

Luke 17:20 Now having been questioned by the Pharisees as to when the kingdom of God was coming, He answered them and said, “The kingdom of God is not coming with signs to be observed;

According to "futurist theologies" it does come with signs to be observed - this is a major contradiction.

 

[stonesoffire]

Scripture does say "in the air". I may have a different idea now of what this means. However, I can't teach it because I am yet searching myself to understand latter day events. Formerly I believed in the catching up.

Am studying some things currently. And my thinking right now would line up with the Domionists. Now don't jump on me. Am still searching.

My background is Church of God. Now I never heard the term preterist until Jonathan Welton came out with his books. It seems to be what my church in my youth taught. That Revelations was fulfilled.

But, then I heard about the rapture, and saw the catching up. Then on to Sonship teaching. However, I couldn't fully accept that there wasn't a rapture. So I left that. On to sitting under To Word fellowship. Looking down on all other churches because we had the Word. Delivered from that thinking, and on to Spirit, life in the Spirit.

And here I remain, with a dab now of dominion thought.

As as I said, don't jump on me. I'm learning. But, I stand firm on symbolism. Is a gift that I was given by the Lord Himself. At home in my kitchen as I was studying. He spoke to me. And SCRIPTURE states the kingdom of God is within. This is not the Kingdom of heaven. This is what Jesus came to earth from.

It makes great sense to me that we have dominion over the enemy because of His ruling within, and we should be able to bring this rule through our lives here on earth. So I've followed Lance Walnau, while on periscope. Not so much now because of time spent here.

Ive been given some material and am studying. I don't yet have a solid belief concerning Preterists.

I do believe on earth as it is in heaven is possible through Holy Spirit. Spellcheck spelled out Holy aspirin. Lol...still laughing. Maybe we need this.

Anywho, humanism is reigning on earth. We need to rise proclaiming the Cross, and blood, just like Paul.

 

[Locutus]

Holy aspirin...

 

[followjesus]

I realise you never mentioned a temple Wille - no, I don't believe anyone beyond his coming in the 1st century will see Jesus returning "in the air or on the ground".

That was accomplished a little after Paul wrote about it to the Thessalonians.

Luke 17:20 Now having been questioned by the Pharisees as to when the kingdom of God was coming, He answered them and said, “The kingdom of God is not coming with signs to be observed;

According to "futurist theologies" it does come with signs to be observed - this is a major contradiction.

"I realise you never mentioned a temple Wille - no, I don't believe anyone beyond his coming in the 1st century will see Jesus returning "in the air or on the ground".

That was accomplished a little after Paul wrote about it to the Thessalonians."


you think that this already happened?

2 thess. 1:And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 8In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 9Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; 10When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day."

why do you think this happened already?

 

[Willie-T]

Scripture does say "in the air". I may have a different idea now of what this means. However, I can't teach it because I am yet searching myself to understand latter day events. Formerly I believed in the catching up.

Am studying some things currently. And my thinking right now would line up with the Domionists. Now don't jump on me. Am still searching.

My background is Church of God. Now I never heard the term preterist until Jonathan Welton came out with his books. It seems to be what my church in my youth taught. That Revelations was fulfilled.

But, then I heard about the rapture, and saw the catching up. Then on to Sonship teaching. However, I couldn't fully accept that there wasn't a rapture. So I left that. On to sitting under To Word fellowship. Looking down on all other churches because we had the Word. Delivered from that thinking, and on to Spirit, life in the Spirit.

And here I remain, with a dab now of dominion thought.

As as I said, don't jump on me. I'm learning. But, I stand firm on symbolism. Is a gift that I was given by the Lord Himself. At home in my kitchen as I was studying. He spoke to me. And SCRIPTURE states the kingdom of God is within. This is not the Kingdom of heaven. This is what Jesus came to earth from.

It makes great sense to me that we have dominion over the enemy because of His ruling within, and we should be able to bring this rule through our lives here on earth. So I've followed Lance Walnau, while on periscope. Not so much now because of time spent here.

Ive been given some material and am studying. I don't yet have a solid belief concerning Preterists.

I do believe on earth as it is in heaven is possible through Holy Spirit. Spellcheck spelled out Holy aspirin. Lol...still laughing. Maybe we need this.

Anywho, humanism is reigning on earth. We need to rise proclaiming the Cross, and blood, just like Paul.

I would never jump on you about that. My own thinking lines up directly with Christian Reconstructionism (Dominionism) than it does with Retreatism or Defeatistism..... except for the returning to living under the condemnation and punishment of disobeying the Law. If we live with that hanging over our heads, why did Jesus bother to come?

 

[followjesus]

I can agree with this view willie , sometimes i can only shake my head and wonder. Why individuals will not stick with what Jesus taught ? Instead of buying books , videos , watching movies of teachers that just want there hard earn money ???

It's very clear how God plan will occur

Matthew 13

The Parable of the Weeds Explained

(Zephaniah 1:1-6)​

36 Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field. 37 He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man; 38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one; 39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; 42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. 43Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

The Parable of the Net

(Matthew 4:18-22; Mark 1:16-20; Luke 5:1-11; John 1:35-42)​

47Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a net, that was cast into the sea, and gathered of every kind: 48Which, when it was full, they drew to shore, and sat down, and gathered the good into vessels, but cast the bad away. 49 So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,50And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

51Jesus saith unto them, Have ye understood all these things? They say unto him, Yea, Lord. 52Then said he unto them, Therefore every scribe which is instructed unto the kingdom of heaven is like unto a man that is an householder, which bringeth forth out of his treasure things new and old.

Verse 51 Christ Himself stated , have you understood all these things , there answer was yes Lord. So two thousand years ago they understood clearly but suddenly less than two hunders years we have so many diffrent twist to the end of the world ??? My proposal to those that belive in rapture or pre trib post trib , have you finally understood the truth as Christ taught His Disciples ???

Shalom​

great post spot on and i think this kind of settles when Jesus will return to gather His people and destroy evil for good.

As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.

 

[Willie-T]

I realise you never mentioned a temple Wille - no, I don't believe anyone beyond his coming in the 1st century will see Jesus returning "in the air or on the ground".

That was accomplished a little after Paul wrote about it to the Thessalonians.

Luke 17:20 Now having been questioned by the Pharisees as to when the kingdom of God was coming, He answered them and said, “The kingdom of God is not coming with signs to be observed;

According to "futurist theologies" it does come with signs to be observed - this is a major contradiction.

Interesting. I need to learn more about why that is believed.

 

[Bogadile]

I would never jump on you about that. My own thinking lines up directly with Christian Reconstructionism (Dominionism) than it does with Retreatism or Defeatistism..... except for the returning to living under the condemnation and punishment of disobeying the Law. If we live with that hanging over our heads, why did Jesus bother to come?

Retreatism, defeatistism. I got new stuff to google! Dominionism is the "Kingdom now" theology right? Christians everywhere?

 

[Locutus]

2 thess. 1:And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 8In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 9Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; 10When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day."

why do you think this happened already?

Because the letter was addressing the situation that the Thessalonians and other churches were under prior to the destruction of Jerusalem - this is from another thread:

The problem with the late "rapture" theory is that is fails to take note of the full context of the "occasional" nature of the letters to the Thessalonians.

2 Th 1:4 therefore, we ourselves speak proudly of you among the churches of God for your perseverance and faith in the midst of all your persecutions and afflictions which you endure.

2 Th 1:5 This is a plain indication of God’s righteous judgment so that you will be considered worthy of the kingdom of God, for which indeed you are suffering.

2 Th 1:6 For after all it is only just for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you,

2 Th 1:7 and to give relief to you who are afflicted and to us as well when the Lord Jesus will be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire,

Note that in the above Paul is promising relief and repayment to those that are afflicting THEM, and it was the Jews and their "henchman" that were doing the affliction. See his comments from his first letter to the Thessalonians:

1 Th 2:14 For you, brethren, became imitators of the churches of God in Christ Jesus that are in Judea, for you also endured the same sufferings at the hands of your own countrymen, even as they did from the Jews,

​

2 Th 1:8 dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus.

2 Th 1:9 These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,

2 Th 1:10 when He comes to be glorified in His saints on that day, and to be marveled at among all who have believed—for our testimony to you was believed.

Paul is promising the Thessalonians relief from persecution at the coming of the Lord in their lifetime (not hundreds of years into their future) when the persecutors/afflictors would be "punished with eternal destruction from the presence of the Lord."

The only nation on earth at that was said to dwell in "the presence of the Lord" was Judah/Israel.

This is the same coming/presence as in 1 Th 4:15-17.

If this relief did not come in the lifetime of the Thessalonians as Paul promised we would have to conclude that he was mistaken, or worse a false prophet.

He was neither.

The meeting in the air (figurative) was a spiritual event at the coming of the Lord not for the removal of the church but to dwell with it "so shall we ever be with the Lord":

There was/is taking the church out of the world, but there is deliverance:

John 17:15 “I do not ask You to take them out of the world, but to keep them from the evil one.