The Gross Error of Limited Atonement

[notmyown]

Well, I wouldn't say it's wrong. It's how I understand it.

Will this post post or disappear?

maaayybe?

'likes' aren't sticking, either! lol

 

[Magenta]

but i was thinking about this last night (and yes, i had a thought! lol).
why is God's electing a people for Himself and choosing to have mercy on some such a hard pill to swallow? it makes God a 'monster', 'capricious', and so on, because in choosing a people, He doesn't have mercy on all, and thus, in that way of thinking, condemns some. (i don't believe that, but i see the logic...)

all Christians affirm God's omniscience, right? so if God, er, looks down the corridors of time, sees who will choose Him and who definitely will not, and intentionally creates those who will not choose Him and are destined for hell, knowing that will be their destination...

is that really any different? as a dear friend who has gone Home used to say, we're stuck with the same 'pig'; we've just put lipstick on it.

i really appreciate you taking the time to discuss this with me.

I was thinking about this last night also I understand the logic of saying that Christ's death is efficacious only for those who believe, for as all affirm, salvation is contingent upon repentance and belief, and since God knew before hand who would respond to the call and who would not, that makes sense. But Jesus came for the whole world desiring all to be saved regardless of whether all would be saved or not. Some claim that makes God a weak God but, hmmm, I don't think so. I do not believe that God creates people, gives them no option, and then punishes them forever after for not making a choice that was not present for them to make in the first place. He has given all the gift of life, whether they believe in Him or not, but only those who acknowledge Who He is as creator of the universe and giver of life shall receive more life via the resurrection to new life through faith in Christ, for in Him we live and move and have out being. Yes He draws us and yes He makes it possible, but ultimately at some point the choice is put before us and we must choose.

I saw someone else post as if everyone who does not identify with Calvinistic thought was automatically Arminian. That seems a fairly gross error to me, also. I find elements of both reflect the truth of God's Word, but neither does wholly or sufficiently, in my view Doctrines of men...

Have you ever heard Adrian Rogers preach? His ministry carries on even after his death

[video=youtube;WRS_ULKek0U]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WRS_ULKek0U&t=1136s[/video]

I hope this message finds you well

 

[Dai3234]

LIMITED ATONEMENT = PRE-DESTINATION = JOHN 15:16 (chosen),
Roman's 8:29 (chosen),
Loved Isaac and hated Esau. Loved apparently means agape = commandments followed or given, phileo = love -emotion.

Predestined works of God, not of our own also mentioned.

Vessels of wrath fitted for destruction = people God choses to go to Hell,

They don't have ears to hear or eyes to see, as God gives them Both.

Limited atonement shows that saved people are saved, vessels of wrath are not. From the beginning of man. We are chosen from the beginning, not knowing it.

As a gift.

Don't confuse the NEW AGE - Calvinists with old Calvinists, new suggest you keep yourself SAVED, saved = sozo, = to be taken from beginning to end. You can't even accept the gift of faith, because your chosen, you can't choose, your DEAD IN YOUR SINS, recieveth = I think? Grab with 10 fingers, decomi,. Dead people can't grab/recieveth the free gift of faith, or it becomes works based and not a gift.

There is no free will, or we decide our fate, even though neberchudnezzer, thought the same in pride etc, and he GOD, changed his mind, not himself.

(Jim Brown, grace & truth ministries, YouTube and archive.org).

This may help.
If im wrong, please let me know why?

 

[stonesoffire]

I do believe that God knows the end from the beginning, and He does call, choose, and cause faithfulness through His interventions in our life. Some just have no choice. Like Paul.

But, I think I see another plan of God too. He has given His body the ministry of reconciliation. He isn't willing any lost, but desires all saved. So in Revelations it says it is the Spirit and the Bride who says come. And whosoever will, take the water of life freely.

I see too that as Kings, which is having authority, and priests, which ministry is to God for men, or standing in the gap in intercession, we can claim others according to the Word and the revealed will of God.

My children are of my "seed" or family. There are many promises concerning our seed. Plus the prophetic has given me words concerning them. Then the "you and all your household" promise in Acts for Holy Spirit.

We just be available to be used for whosoever.

And give the good news of the gospel. Not the restraint of laws, do this, don't do that. The gift now of Holy Spirit Himself to be with us for all life's situations.

 

[Nehemiah6]

...why is God's electing a people for Himself and choosing to have mercy on some such a hard pill to swallow? it makes God a 'monster', 'capricious', and so on, because in choosing a people, He doesn't have mercy on all, and thus, in that way of thinking, condemns some...

The truth of the matter is that neither God's omniscience, nor have sovereignty have anything to do with this. The reasons why Christians will not swallow this nonsense about God electing some for salvation is that according to Scripture:

1. Christ died for the sins of the whole world.

2. God offers salvation to all -- "whosoever will".

3. God commands all men everywhere to repent.

Therefore this false doctrine -- actually heresy -- about God electing some for salvation does this:

1. It contradicts Scripture, dismisses Scripture, and falsifies the truth presented in Scripture.

2. It makes God a liar, and is actually blasphemous.

3. It mocks God's plan of salvation, and set's up a *special group* of people.

4. It denies the extent of the atonement, and denigrates the finished work of Christ.

5. It presents a false gospel, which is accursed.

6. It teaches false doctrine to Christians, when they should know the truth.

7. It elevates the doctrines of men above the Word of God (no different than Catholicism).

 

[Dai3234]

I do believe that God knows the end from the beginning, and He does call, choose, and cause faithfulness through His interventions in our life. Some just have no choice. Like Paul.

But, I think I see another plan of God too. He has given His body the ministry of reconciliation. He isn't willing any lost, but desires all saved. So in Revelations it says it is the Spirit and the Bride who says come. And whosoever will, take the water of life freely.

I see too that as Kings, which is having authority, and priests, which ministry is to God for men, or standing in the gap in intercession, we can claim others according to the Word and the revealed will of God.

My children are of my "seed" or family. There are many promises concerning our seed. Plus the prophetic has given me words concerning them. Then the "you and all your household" promise in Acts for Holy Spirit.

We just be available to be used for whosoever.

And give the good news of the gospel. Not the restraint of laws, do this, don't do that. The gift now of Holy Spirit Himself to be with us for all life's situations.

The SAVED are reconciled, not vessels of wrath. Saved are pre-destined to be saved. You can't lose salvation or we are stronger than God. The same is said for trying to save others, we can't do it. It's pre-destined by God. Every sickness and step is also, otherwise it's our will and we can do what we will, against the will of God, even though neberchudnezzer was shown, he was allowed by the will of God, to do what he did.

Man cannot have will, right?

 

[Dai3234]

The truth of the matter is that neither God's omniscience, nor have sovereignty have anything to do with this. The reasons why Christians will not swallow this nonsense about God electing some for salvation is that according to Scripture:

1. Christ died for the sins of the whole world.

2. God offers salvation to all -- "whosoever will".

3. God commands all men everywhere to repent.

Therefore this false doctrine -- actually heresy -- about God electing some for salvation does this:

1. It contradicts Scripture, dismisses Scripture, and falsifies the truth presented in Scripture.

2. It makes God a liar, and is actually blasphemous.

3. It mocks God's plan of salvation, and set's up a *special group* of people.

4. It denies the extent of the atonement, and denigrates the finished work of Christ.

5. It presents a false gospel, which is accursed.

6. It teaches false doctrine to Christians, when they should know the truth.

7. It elevates the doctrines of men above the Word of God (no different than Catholicism).

That's not really what the Bible says. Your being selective. The Bible cannot contradict itself. All nations does not say all people, it says basically means all creeds and colours, not every individual, otherwise Christ failed to save millions/billions. Your point of denigrating Christ, is not sensible. Why would the atonement apply to people going or already in HELL? Therefore, it's limited to saved people, pre-destined. Otherwise the Bible contradicts itself.

Grace and truth ministries, videos may help.

 

[Nehemiah6]

If im wrong, please let me know why?

Yes you are extremely wrong, since you have failed to deal with the Scriptures which plainly speak of unlimited atonement. Furthermore predestination is NEVER for salvation, but for glorification -- "PREDESTINED TO BE CONFORMED TO THE IMAGE OF HIS SON". Does that say predestined to be saved, predestined for Heaven, or does it say that those who have been saved will be transformed into the likeness of Christ. Now please pay close attention to this passage, which is in this context (1 John 3:1-3):

Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not. Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

So what is this passage teaching us?

1. It is addressed to believers, and they are told that they are presently "sons of God" (children of God).

2. Since they are not as totally perfect as Christ, nor have they been glorified, they do not appear presently as anything other than human beings (who can and do sin even though they are children of God).

3. "What we shall be" is (a) either resurrected, (b) or transformed at the Rapture, (c) perfected totally in body, mind, and spirit, (d) having glorious, immortal, supernatural "heavenly" bodies, and resembling the character of Christ perfectly, with absolutely no sin within.

4. It is only "when He shall appear that we shall be like Him". This is a reference to the Blessed Hope, when Christ will come to take away His Bride from the earth. That is when we shall be like Him. And that is what it means to be "predestined to be conformed to the image [likeness] of God's Son".

5. In the meantime we are to "purify" ourselves. How? By walking in the Spirit and mortifying the flesh. By self-examination, repentance, and confession of present sins. By focusing on things above which are eternal, and not loving the world and its sinful pleasures.

 

[Laish]

The truth of the matter is that neither God's omniscience, nor have sovereignty have anything to do with this. The reasons why Christians will not swallow this nonsense about God electing some for salvation is that according to Scripture:
.

So if we believe differently than you believe here we are not Christians?
Bill

 

[Nehemiah6]

So if we believe differently than you believe here we are not Christians?
Bill

It is not a matter of believing differently from other Christians, but it is a matter of either believing God or making God a liar. So let us focus on just one verse in Scripture (1 John 2:2) to prove conclusively that there is no such thing as limited atonement, and that is not only a gross error but a mockery of the finished work of Christ.

We will (A) look at the Greek in both the critical and the received texts, (B) see that they are identical, (C) look at the literal interlinear translation, (D) look at various translations, (E) examine the meaning of "propitiation", and come to the logical and spiritual conclusion that Christ did indeed die not only for the sins of those who have believed on Him, but for the sins of the whole world. In view of that Calvinists should TOTALLY DISCARD the false doctrine of limited atonement, which means that logically they will have to give up Five Point Calvinism for Gospel truth.

Nestle Greek New Testament 1904
καὶ αὐτὸς ἱλασμός ἐστιν περὶ τῶν ἁμαρτιῶν ἡμῶν, οὐ περὶ τῶν ἡμετέρων δὲ μόνον ἀλλὰ καὶ περὶ ὅλου τοῦ κόσμου.

Stephanus Textus Receptus 1550
καὶ αὐτὸς ἱλασμός ἐστιν περὶ τῶν ἁμαρτιῶν ἡμῶν οὐ περὶ τῶν ἡμετέρων δὲ μόνον ἀλλὰ καὶ περὶ ὅλου τοῦ κόσμου

INTERLINEAR LITERAL TRANSLATION
And He [the] propitiation is for the sins of us, but not only for the [sins] of ours, but also for all the world.

[TABLE="align: center"]
[TR]
[TD]

New International Version​

He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

New Living Translation​

He himself is the sacrifice that atones for our sins--and not only our sins but the sins of all the world.

English Standard Version​

He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.

New American Standard Bible ​

and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.

King James Bible​

And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

Holman Christian Standard Bible​

He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not only for ours, but also for those of the whole world.

International Standard Version​

It is he who is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not for ours only, but also for the whole world's.

NET Bible​

and he himself is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for our sins but also for the whole world.[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

So some of the translations say "propitiation" and some say "atoning sacrifice. What exactly does this word mean?

Strong's Concordance

hilasmos: propitiation​

Original Word: ἱλασμός, οῦ, ὁ
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: hilasmos
Phonetic Spelling: (hil-as-mos')
Short Definition: a propitiation, atoning sacrifice
Definition: a propitiation (of an angry god), atoning sacrifice.HELPS Word-studies
2434 hilasmós – properly, propitiation; an offering to appease (satisfy) an angry, offended party. 2434 (hilasmós) is only used twice (1 Jn 2:2, 4:10) – both times of Christ's atoning blood that appeases God's wrath, on all confessed sin. By the sacrifice of Himself, Jesus Christ provided the ultimate 2434 /hilasmós("propitiation").


Thayer's Greek Lexicon
STRONGS NT 2434: ἱλασμός

ἱλασμός, ἱλασμοῦ, ὁ (ἱλάσκομαι);

[TABLE="align: center"]
[TR]
[TD]2. in Alex. usage the means of appeasing, a propitiation: Philo, alleg. leg. 3: § 61;προσοίσουσιν ἱλασμόν, for חַטָּאת, Ezekiel 44:27; περί τῶν ἁμαρτιῶν, of Christ, 1 John 2:2;1 John 4:10 (κριός τοῦ ἱλασμοῦ, Numbers 5:8; (cf. ἡμέρα τοῦ ἱλασμοῦ, Leviticus 25:9); also forסְלִיחָה, forgiveness, Psalm 129:4 (); Daniel 9:9,Theod.). (Cf. Trench, § lxxvii.) [/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

 

[Laish]

It is not a matter of believing differently from other Christians, but it is a matter of either believing God or making God a liar. So let us focus on just one verse in Scripture (1 John 2:2) to prove conclusively that there is no such thing as limited atonement, and that is not only a gross error but a mockery of the finished work of Christ.

We will (A) look at the Greek in both the critical and the received texts, (B) see that they are identical, (C) look at the literal interlinear translation, (D) look at various translations, (E) examine the meaning of "propitiation", and come to the logical and spiritual conclusion that Christ did indeed die not only for the sins of those who have believed on Him, but for the sins of the whole world. In view of that Calvinists should TOTALLY DISCARD the false doctrine of limited atonement, which means that logically they will have to give up Five Point Calvinism for Gospel truth.

Nestle Greek New Testament 1904
καὶ αὐτὸς ἱλασμός ἐστιν περὶ τῶν ἁμαρτιῶν ἡμῶν, οὐ περὶ τῶν ἡμετέρων δὲ μόνον ἀλλὰ καὶ περὶ ὅλου τοῦ κόσμου.

Stephanus Textus Receptus 1550
καὶ αὐτὸς ἱλασμός ἐστιν περὶ τῶν ἁμαρτιῶν ἡμῶν οὐ περὶ τῶν ἡμετέρων δὲ μόνον ἀλλὰ καὶ περὶ ὅλου τοῦ κόσμου

INTERLINEAR LITERAL TRANSLATION
And He [the] propitiation is for the sins of us, but not only for the [sins] of ours, but also for all the world.

[TABLE="align: center"]
[TR]
[TD]

New International Version​

He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

New Living Translation​

He himself is the sacrifice that atones for our sins--and not only our sins but the sins of all the world.

English Standard Version​

He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.

New American Standard Bible ​

and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.

King James Bible​

And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

Holman Christian Standard Bible​

He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not only for ours, but also for those of the whole world.

International Standard Version​

It is he who is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not for ours only, but also for the whole world's.

NET Bible​

and he himself is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for our sins but also for the whole world.[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

So some of the translations say "propitiation" and some say "atoning sacrifice. What exactly does this word mean?

Strong's Concordance

hilasmos: propitiation​

Original Word: ἱλασμός, οῦ, ὁ
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: hilasmos
Phonetic Spelling: (hil-as-mos')
Short Definition: a propitiation, atoning sacrifice
Definition: a propitiation (of an angry god), atoning sacrifice.HELPS Word-studies
2434 hilasmós – properly, propitiation; an offering to appease (satisfy) an angry, offended party. 2434 (hilasmós) is only used twice (1 Jn 2:2, 4:10) – both times of Christ's atoning blood that appeases God's wrath, on all confessed sin. By the sacrifice of Himself, Jesus Christ provided the ultimate 2434 /hilasmós("propitiation").


Thayer's Greek Lexicon
STRONGS NT 2434: ἱλασμός

ἱλασμός, ἱλασμοῦ, ὁ (ἱλάσκομαι);

[TABLE="align: center"]
[TR]
[TD]2. in Alex. usage the means of appeasing, a propitiation: Philo, alleg. leg. 3: § 61;προσοίσουσιν ἱλασμόν, for חַטָּאת, Ezekiel 44:27; περί τῶν ἁμαρτιῶν, of Christ, 1 John 2:2;1 John 4:10 (κριός τοῦ ἱλασμοῦ, Numbers 5:8; (cf. ἡμέρα τοῦ ἱλασμοῦ, Leviticus 25:9); also forסְלִיחָה, forgiveness, Psalm 129:4 (); Daniel 9:9,Theod.). (Cf. Trench, § lxxvii.)[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

Don’t go in to your song and dance do you think that those that disagree with you on this are Christian ?
Its simple
Bill

 

[peacefulbeliever]

Okay, honestly here. I can't usually refute you, not because you're not wrong, but because you tend to start with the side of the negative.

And that's a debate/Logic problem, not literally "negative." (You aren't being negative, yet your argument is one from nothing.)

Before I explain the problem with discussing things with you, I have to show the bigger problem in terms you'll understand.

Example: I used to argue with atheists, until I figured out why that was futile, logically speaking. You see, they start with "There is no God." (There the negative is plain.) I start with, "Not only is there God, we know him."

You can't prove a negative. You can't prove nothing with literally nothing to prove. Since there is no god, then what evidence can prove something doesn't exist, right? So the honus on proving God is, always landed on me. (I could. I still can, but it became futile when I put in all the effort, and all they did afterward was say they disagreed.)

But one can say the Bible says "There is no God" . . . but there is more to it: The fool says in his heart, “There is no God.” They are corrupt, and their ways are vile;there is no one who does good. Psalm 53:1 . . . so one that says such a thing is a fool.

Which brings me to the point of why I can rarely discuss things with you.

When one believes in Jesus Christ, confesses him as Lord and believes in his heart that God raised Jesus from the dead then one is saved...

No, really. I can't argue with this, because that's not in the Bible. That's your opinion or something you were taught. So, it is nothing, and I can't prove something out of nothing. And I can't prove that's nothing, unless I quote the entire Bible so you read it, look for that in there, and find it doesn't exist.

What does Romans 10:9,10 mean to you then?

That's why I can't go beyond, "You're wrong." Nothing personal, not angry, not scolding, I just can't prove nothing/the negative. Basic Logic problem.

To say someone is wrong either in their "opinion" or their understanding - there has to be a right that goes against what they have said or understood.

 

[Nehemiah6]

Don’t go in to your song and dance do you think that those that disagree with you on this are Christian ?
Its simple
Bill

1. To respond to Bible truth as a "song and dance" indicates that you are really not interest in Gospel truth, just your dogmas.

2. Those who disagree with me (which is irrelevant in this context, since the issue is about disagreeing with God) can also be Christians, and only God knows the hearts. We have no business determining who is a Christian and who is not. But we have every business in exposing the lies of the Devil.

3. There are many Christians in the Reformed Camp who are genuinely saved and genuinely believe the lies of the Devil also. Which is a shame.

 

[Laish]

Ok got ya strait . So how can a house divided stand ? One can’t be of the devil and a follower of God though Christ Jesus .
So Are we Christians? Your side stepping like a lawyer
Bill

 

[Nehemiah6]

Ok got ya strait . So how can a house divided stand ? One can’t be of the devil and a follower of God though Christ Jesus .
So Are we Christians? Your side stepping like a lawyer
Bill

Not at all (as regards side-stepping). There is no question that Christianity is a house divided. And there is also no question that people who are genuinely saved can also allow themselves to be deceived through man-made doctrines. We see this all the time.

Ideally, no Christian should be deceived about the truth, but whenever people believe the doctrines and theologies of men, they go off the rails. The Reformers failed to question the ideas of Augustine of Hippo, and accepted them hook, line, and sinker. And Augustine was the one who originated the ideas found in Five Point Calvinism. See below:
https://www.thebereancall.org/content/july-2012-classic

 

[preacher4truth]

The truth of the matter is that neither God's omniscience, nor have sovereignty have anything to do with this. The reasons why Christians will not swallow this nonsense about God electing some for salvation is that according to Scripture:


Therefore this false doctrine -- actually heresy -- about God electing some for salvation does this:

1. It contradicts Scripture, dismisses Scripture, and falsifies the truth presented in Scripture....

I snipped your blasphemous remarks under your other "points" Romans 9:20 man. Nothing but inflammatory drivel and calling of others as lost by your implication. Your disdain for the one true Gospel is remarkable.

Ephesians 1:4 and 2 Thessalonians 2:13 refute your diatribe, disdain of God's electing grace and your false teaching.

But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

What you call heresy is actually God's gospel while you are preaching your own msn made version in rejection of truth.

 

[stonesoffire]

The SAVED are reconciled, not vessels of wrath. Saved are pre-destined to be saved. You can't lose salvation or we are stronger than God. The same is said for trying to save others, we can't do it. It's pre-destined by God. Every sickness and step is also, otherwise it's our will and we can do what we will, against the will of God, even though neberchudnezzer was shown, he was allowed by the will of God, to do what he did.

Man cannot have will, right?

1.. I didn't say the saved are vessels of wrath.

2. Predestined is Jesus who was predestined before the foundation of the world to die on that Cross and be raised in ressurection life to be the atonement for all mankind, and for this cursed world.

3. I didn't say we could lose salvation. For one thing it's not my belief.

4. If we are predestined to be sick, then we should get rid of the medical profession. Are doctors more merciful than God? Get a grip man.

What I said, is that the body of Christ has the mission of offering the gospel of reconciliation to whosoever will received. It's seen in Revelations, and the Priesthood of the Ministry of Jesus. We are His hands, feet, and mouth in this world. By the power of the grace of the gospel through Jesus Christ, and the empowerment of Holy Spirit in our "work".

What kind of doctrine are you touting?

 

[preacher4truth]

Ok got ya strait . So how can a house divided stand ? One can’t be of the devil and a follower of God though Christ Jesus .
So Are we Christians? Your side stepping like a lawyer
Bill

His diatribe of hatred for the Gospel, with all of its vitriol is calling others lost. Romans 9:20 man gone to seed.

 

[peacefulbeliever]

Bottom line - We are all Christians if we believe in the only begotten Son of God, Jesus Christ. The debate is in which comes first: regeneration or faith [trust, belief] in Christ.

 

[Johnny_B]

Vessels of wrath fitted for destruction = people God choses to go to Hell,

If Romans 9:22 is your proof text, it does not say that God prepares vessels of wrath, here it is “What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction,”

This verse does not say that God has created vessels of wrath, it is a hypothetical, "What if God" it does not read, "God, wanting to show His wrath" if it did then we could say that God created people for hell. Also what did Jesus teach us in John 3:18-20,

“He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.19 And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.20 For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed.”

God does not need to chose people for hell they chose it themselves. Notice those that do not believe are condemned already, no need to chose them to hell they are already going there.