Paul the Liar?

[lightbearer]

Saul, called Paul.



it's not my opinion that the OP is challenging the authority of any of the scriptures Paul wrote.

Praise GOD!!!

yeah i call him Paul too.

Did you know that Saul means asked and Paul name means little? I find that interesting. He that was asked ( a man of stature)when found in the presence of the Father through Christ changed his name to little. Humbled through the mind of Christ; becoming a servant to all mankind. A true friend to all. Even to the point of death.

contextually, in Romans, the case that all mankind - Paul/Saul included - is guilty of sin and that no one can stand before Him apart from grace through faith: no flesh is justified by works; all have sin. the lie? sin itself is the lie; the lie is that anyone is not guilty or has excuse. the original lie, metastasized in every human. and any contradiction of that gospel, which is that Jesus the Christ has freely given this mercy, is an instance of that lie, accusing God of evil.

I am happy someone else had seen it. The whole Paul a liar thing set in a negative overture was what made me look at the chapter more in depth. The whole," that was not what he was saying" never set well with me either.

You can't tell some one who has made it their prerogative to denounce Paul, that Paul wasn't really saying he lied. The text is clear. Paul admits to a lie. And that is a fact.

 

[preacher4truth]

Please don't do that.

Please don't expose you and show what you've done and tell the truth? Own it. You've called Paul a liar, used commentary out of context to "prove it" then say God called him a liar. You're bearing false witness.

Though not easily understood. There is a lot between them quotes.

Oh please, you're not that deep, spare us the condescension. We understand you perfectly: you've called Paul a liar.

I got to the bottom line of what you were saying, the quotes you've offered were an effort to support your error in calling Paul a liar. They all failed and just as you got the text of Scripture wrong, you got the gist of what they were saying wrong as well.

The citations themselves don't bare witness to the witness that you are sharing against me.

Your own words are witness against you, all I did was break them down and expose them.

You false teachers are all the same, never really come out and say what you mean, and then deny it when confronted by those who oppose you. You all lie in wait for someone else "to see" what you've said covertly, then you think you've "won a soul" to your teaching when they receive it. That's a fact.

 

[Ahwatukee]

No! Someone might argue is not in the Greek text. The NIV added that.
In verse 5 He includes himself by his use of the word "our". And verse seven is being spoken in the first person and starts with the word "for" which assigns a reason for what was previously stated. . Please take the time to view the op. My commentary could be hard to follow; so it will take time to get through it while you look at the text also.

Trofimus is correct! Paul, in referring back to his statement, in verse 8 he says "their condemnation is deserved." Which demonstrates that he is not speaking about his lie but others who would have that attitude to do so.

The bottom line is that Paul is not condoning or justifying his lying for the purpose of increasing God's glory.

You are badly misinterpreting the scripture. Regarding this, I would also remind you of what Peter said regarding those who would distort Paul or his writings:

"Bear in mind that our Lord’s patience means salvation, just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him. He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction."

Peter referred to Paul's writings as wisdom from God and as scripture and anyone distorting those do so to their own destruction. Paul's words are the Lord's words. You attack Paul, you attack the Lord.

 

[notmyown]

You can't tell some one who has made it their prerogative to denounce Paul, that Paul wasn't really saying he lied. The text is clear. Paul admits to a lie. And that is a fact.

Paul, the man who called himself the chief of sinners, would not dispute this, i think.

so long as you're not saying his writings under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit are untrue. that would be bad.

 

[preacher4truth]

Here is another who says Paul is a liar:

http://jdstone.org/cr/files/pauladmitstolyingfraud.html

Now, to say Paul had lied in his lifetime. Perfectly acceptable. To call him a liar. Unacceptable. It is derogation and is meant to malign Paul and his writings (Scripture). Nothing good comes of this.

 

[notmyown]

Here is another who says Paul is a liar:

http://jdstone.org/cr/files/pauladmitstolyingfraud.html

Now, to say Paul had lied in his lifetime. Perfectly acceptable. To call him a liar. Unacceptable. It is derogation and is meant to malign Paul and his writings (Scripture). Nothing good comes of this.

i don't say this is the intent of the OP, but normally on these boards calling Paul into question is done for the purpose of undermining the Gospel.

which is why 'let's talk about Paul' makes me itchy. lol

 

[preacher4truth]

i don't say this is the intent of the OP, but normally on these boards calling Paul into question is done for the purpose of undermining the Gospel.

which is why 'let's talk about Paul' makes me itchy. lol

Right? Generally what these do is offer it covertly at first so as to not get immediately banned. They lie in wait for others to be deceived nugget by nugget, then they start to unload what they really believe and speak plainly.

Not sure this is what the OP is up to 100% but still there is a fair bit of certainty as to be cautious.

 

[Grandpa]

Paul is simply including himself with all of mankind.

This is the 'complicated theology to redneck' translation for Bogadile and me and others;

You all are a bunch of liars, only God is Truth.

I, Paul, am just like you, except I have been shown my error and have the solution for it. It is the Lord Jesus Christ and only the Lord Jesus Christ.

If I turn from Him I just go back to being a liar, just like you.


2 Corinthians 11:31 [FONT=&quot]The God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which is blessed for evermore, knoweth that I lie not.[/FONT]

 

[stonesoffire]

All I can say is welcome Lightbearer!

It's been a while.

A tough first posting. Am sure things will smooth out for us all.

 

[stonesoffire]

Right? Generally what these do is offer it covertly at first so as to not get immediately banned. They lie in wait for others to be deceived nugget by nugget, then they start to unload what they really believe and speak plainly.

Not sure this is what the OP is up to 100% but still there is a fair bit of certainty as to be cautious.

Preacher, in time I am sure you will find your first thought wrong.

 

[Snoozy]

this is why its so important to rightly divide the word of truth or else u will get mixed up in all kinds of false doctrines.

folks see the differences in the preaching of Paul and Jesus. and then they say oh look its different, Jesus is Jesus so we go with Him and throw out Paul he was a false apostle.

they need to rightly divide and realize that Jesus only came for the lost sheep of Israel.

Mat 15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
Mat 10:5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:
Mat 10:6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

paul was the apostle to the gentiles and he started his ministry after israel had rejected the messiah(last straw was when they stoned stephen) and after Jesus died and resurrected so he was the apostle of the new covenant.
the book of acts is a transitional book and alotta folks get tripped up in acts 2 and make it the end all be all for the church age. things are changing in the book of acts. compare pentecost to cornelius' story. its not the same.

if u really wanna go with Jesus' words only shouldnt u obey the law of moses too? Jesus did! and u must follow Him. Jesus even said to his disciples to do all the things that the pharisees say cause they sit in the seat of moses.

u cant make all the bible say the same thing cause it doesnt. u have to wrest teh scrpitures to make it fit. u gotta rightly divide. all scripture is written for our benefit. but not all applies to us or else u should be building an ark and not eating the fruit of knowledge of good and evil.

 

[posthuman]

Here is another who says Paul is a liar:

http://jdstone.org/cr/files/pauladmitstolyingfraud.html

Now, to say Paul had lied in his lifetime. Perfectly acceptable. To call him a liar. Unacceptable. It is derogation and is meant to malign Paul and his writings (Scripture). Nothing good comes of this.

lol how "chief of sinners" "wretched man" or "murderer" is fine but "liar" nope

i started a thread once and named it "you all have mental problems"
i was trying to make a complex point about regeneration & humility. boy did i get a lot of people upset on the "we are worthy" forums! so misunderstood! poor phrasing? probably. but i did it on purpose, knowing it would generate activity and interest.

take the time to see what lightbearer is trying to say; it may be worth it

 

[posthuman]

Trofimus is correct! Paul, in referring back to his statement, in verse 8 he says "their condemnation is deserved." Which demonstrates that he is not speaking about his lie but others who would have that attitude to do so.

the way i've understood this bit ".. as some accuse us of saying .. their condemnation is just"
is that he means it is justified to condemn us if we are really saying what they say.

i.e. if anyone was actually saying that we should sin all the more, in order to glorify God - because the unrighteousness of our lie ((our "untruth")) magnifies the righteousness of God - then it is entirely justifiable to condemn the preaching of such a thing, encouraging sin!

"their condemnation is just"
to condemn the preaching of licentiousness is indeed just!

. . . but are we actually saying sin all the more, that grace may abound? may it never be so!
so that just condemnation is misapplied

make sense?

it's the old grace vs. works strawman. you'd be absolutely right to rebuke us for saying we shouldn't or don't need to pursue godliness. but no one is saying that!

 

[preacher4truth]

. take the time to see what lightbearer is trying to say; it may be worth it

You're assuming too much. You know what they say about assuming.

 

[posthuman]

You're assuming too much. You know what they say about assuming.

maybe i am. i haven't carefully read every post in this thread yet.

but it seems like he feels i'm comprehending him correctly, while all the people jumping on him for attacking Paul are not quite getting what he's trying to say, and the ones up in arms thinking he is challenging the authority of scripture are radically misunderstanding him.

in the context of the the first section of chapter 3, Paul is 'speaking like a human' ((letting us know that parenthetically, to be aware that 'like a human' is not quite the right way)) and he's talking about the Jews as a particular instance of a broader point. he certainly identifies himself as both an human and a Jew, particularly as an hyper-religious Jew, which is the class most radically affected by the point he is making.

and he's saying there is a "lie" -- call it a "lack of truth" -- that all mankind is guilty of and continues in, but for the grace of God ((see following chapters of Romans)). why shouldn't he be including himself in all this??

wretched man that i am, who will save me from this body of death??
thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! there is now no more condemnation for those who believe!

Romans 3 is still not even halfway through the argument that establishes the full truth of the gospel
if we're following along, Saul doesn't die and become Paul for another 3 chapters or so. so at this point in the 'narrative' -- or 'rhetoric' probably a more appropriate word ((we need a communications expert here)), yeah, he's still a person in which untruth dwells. it's kinda the point. now, he's not done talking. he is going to explain very carefully to us that the old man has dead and in Christ there is newness of life - a life in which there is no lie, so that the sin of the liar is pardoned and removed below the bottom of the seas.

 

[posthuman]

Praise GOD!!!



Did you know that Saul means asked and Paul name means little? I find that interesting. He that was asked ( a man of stature)when found in the presence of the Father through Christ changed his name to little. Humbled through the mind of Christ; becoming a servant to all mankind. A true friend to all. Even to the point of death.

yes!

and Saul, king of Israel, his namesake was a head taller than any other man in the land of his day!
so, irony.
God seems to love irony

if i had to guess, i would imagine Paul was a comparatively large & fit man - at least, notwithstanding what the years of hard travelling and imprisonment must have done to his body. he was probably quite wealthy, well fed and apparently pretty active & agressive as "Saul"

I, Paul, who am "timid" when face to face with you,
but "bold" toward you when away!
(2 Corinthians 10:1)​

he is a radically changed man! and the LORD removed the lie from within him, and replaced it with His Truth: this is the very promise of redemption in Christ that "small" man is writing to us about. isn't that awesome?!

 

[preacher4truth]

Preacher, in time I am sure you will find your first thought wrong.

Sister, I do not mind being wrong, yet it sounds more like you're asserting I'm wrong about his person than about what he poorly conveyed in his OP topic.

 

[lightbearer]

All I can say is welcome Lightbearer!

It's been a while.

Yes it has! How goes it my good Spirited friend?

A tough first posting. Am sure things will smooth out for us all.

Me too. Tough topic. Many have no idea what Paul was saying so they just gross over the text and give it no mind or take the word of some theologian who goes out side of the context of the text to explain it.

What is really disappointing here is the knee jerked responses and the way the band wagon was so easily filled....

 

[lightbearer]

Paul, the man who called himself the chief of sinners, would not dispute this, i think.

so long as you're not saying his writings under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit are untrue. that would be bad.

Yes it would. Because it was GOD that worked in him both to will and do HIS good pleasure. Not him (Paul) but Christ! This is the Gift that is to all mankind. Christ in us; the Hope of Glory!

 

[MarcR]

You're assuming too much. You know what they say about assuming.

The OP: Paul the Liar ?

Are we missing the intent of the '?' ?

I am beginning to believe that the OP was looking into the intent of Rom 3:4.

When I posted my belief that the 'lie' was hypothetical rather than actual; he agreed with me.

If his motive was to challenge us to think the passage through, he certainly succeeded.

I believe that Posthuman is correct. I am not ready to ascribe ignoble intent to Lightbearer or his post.

I readily agree with those who criticize the OP for being clumsily worded. However lack of skill in expressing oneself is not a disqualification to participation.