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It pains me to have to point this out, but Christians used this exact same logic to deny the reality of heliocentrism for centuries,
Historically, the attitude expressed above has a very high rate of being flat out wrong. What is it about your interpretation of scripture that makes it an inerrant scientific description of the physical universe? We have been using science to help us interpret scripture for centuries, what great revelation do you now have that should change this?
``People gave ear to an upstart astrologer who strove to show that the earth revolves, not the heavens or the firmament, the sun and the moon. Whoever wishes to appear clever must devise some new system, which of all systems is of course the very best. This fool wishes to reverse the entire science of astronomy; but sacred Scripture tells us that Joshua commanded the sun to stand still, and not the earth.'' - Martin Luther
``The eyes are witnesses that the heavens revolve in the space of twenty-four hours. But certain men, either from the love of novelty, or to make a display of ingenuity, have concluded that the earth moves; and they maintain that neither the eighth sphere nor the sun revolves.... Now, it is a want of honesty and decency to assert such notions publicly, and the example is pernicious. It is the part of a good mind to accept the truth as revealed by God and to acquiesce in it.'' - Melanchthon
Eventually, however, people came to realize that the earth did in fact revolve around the sun because the physical evidence produced by science was simply too abundant to deny and we dealt with those passages that people like Luther and Melanchthon held to be absolute propositions by understanding that they were likely simply non-technical literary devices or point-of-view descriptions of events the original authors and audience simply did not understand. ``The eyes are witnesses that the heavens revolve in the space of twenty-four hours. But certain men, either from the love of novelty, or to make a display of ingenuity, have concluded that the earth moves; and they maintain that neither the eighth sphere nor the sun revolves.... Now, it is a want of honesty and decency to assert such notions publicly, and the example is pernicious. It is the part of a good mind to accept the truth as revealed by God and to acquiesce in it.'' - Melanchthon
Historically, the attitude expressed above has a very high rate of being flat out wrong. What is it about your interpretation of scripture that makes it an inerrant scientific description of the physical universe? We have been using science to help us interpret scripture for centuries, what great revelation do you now have that should change this?
“The way in which I could quickly and surely demonstrate that Copernicus’s position is not contrary to the Scriptures would be to show with a thousand proofs that it is true, and that the opposite cannot hold good; thus, since two truths cannot contradict each other, it is necessary that both his theory and the Scriptures are in agreement.” - Galileo
Lurker
G
Thats a good point, If we interpret scripture wrong, then our conclusions will be wrong.
I was thinking of a recorded radio program from the past (Scopes monkey trial) where a Christian was debating evolution and the Christian had no idea about science, i also don't think he had much of an idea about scripture knowledge of the Bible either. The evolutionist ran him into the ground, he didn't have a chance, as a result they teach evolution in our schools.
It wouldn't surprise me one bit if certain people put this all together knowing the outcome so they could stick evolution in our schools.
I also find it remarkable i can find everything online about the scopes monkey trial except the actual broadcast. because you would see what i'm talking about.
I was thinking of a recorded radio program from the past (Scopes monkey trial) where a Christian was debating evolution and the Christian had no idea about science, i also don't think he had much of an idea about scripture knowledge of the Bible either. The evolutionist ran him into the ground, he didn't have a chance, as a result they teach evolution in our schools.
It wouldn't surprise me one bit if certain people put this all together knowing the outcome so they could stick evolution in our schools.
I also find it remarkable i can find everything online about the scopes monkey trial except the actual broadcast. because you would see what i'm talking about.
20O Timothy, keep that which is committed to thy trust, avoiding profane and vain babblings, and oppositions of science falsely so called: 21Which some professing have erred concerning the faith. Grace be with thee. Amen(1 Timothy 6:20-21).
God created all things.If they say anything contradictory to that it is not true science.If it is anything to do with evolution it is not true science for God does not need to go through an evolution process to have things come about.
God created Eve from Adam and not an evolution process so He would not create Adam by an evolution process.Jesus healed people not be an evolution process but whole at that time.
If they say God created all things could they actually stumble upon how God did it.I do not believe they could understand how God did it although they might understand the very basics of it.
There is no way they can understand how God created all things seeing God deals with matter and atoms that we cannot see and forms things which they could not understand that small of things and how God did it from that point.
Matt
God created all things.If they say anything contradictory to that it is not true science.If it is anything to do with evolution it is not true science for God does not need to go through an evolution process to have things come about.
God created Eve from Adam and not an evolution process so He would not create Adam by an evolution process.Jesus healed people not be an evolution process but whole at that time.
If they say God created all things could they actually stumble upon how God did it.I do not believe they could understand how God did it although they might understand the very basics of it.
There is no way they can understand how God created all things seeing God deals with matter and atoms that we cannot see and forms things which they could not understand that small of things and how God did it from that point.
Matt
No, the Bible says the earth is a circle. This is what a circular earth looks like,
while this is what a spherical earth looks like,
Notice a difference?
True. . .but then the bible also says the earth is ". . .firmly established; it cannot be moved." Isn't this an inaccurate scientific statement? What then is our solution? Should we simply give up the Bible as inaccurate or perhaps should we recognize that it was not written to scientifically describe the universe but to, instead, describe man's relationship with God? I think the latter makes more sense.
while this is what a spherical earth looks like,
Notice a difference?
True. . .but then the bible also says the earth is ". . .firmly established; it cannot be moved." Isn't this an inaccurate scientific statement? What then is our solution? Should we simply give up the Bible as inaccurate or perhaps should we recognize that it was not written to scientifically describe the universe but to, instead, describe man's relationship with God? I think the latter makes more sense.
"Yet in this vanity some of the moderns have with extreme levity indulged so far as to attempt to found a system of natural philosophy on the first chapters of Genesis, on the book of Job, and other parts of the sacred writings; seeking for the dead among the living: which also makes the inhibition and repression of it the more important, because from this unwholesome mixture of things human and things divine there arises not only a fantastic philosophy but also an heretical religion. Very meet it is therefore that we be sober-minded, and give to faith that only which is faith's." - Francis Bacon, Novum Organum
Lurker
G
Where does it say the Earth is a circle and we can look up the word in the strong's concordance. i.m making it quick cause i have to run off to work. im eating and typing at the same time.
secondly has the Earth ever been destroyed before where its not been hanging in space. (though one day soon it will be reeling to and frow like a drunkard, what a wild ride that will be for everyone under judgement.)
secondly has the Earth ever been destroyed before where its not been hanging in space. (though one day soon it will be reeling to and frow like a drunkard, what a wild ride that will be for everyone under judgement.)
Is there a particular reason you're translating "knowledge" as "science"? I mean other than because it seems to support your point whereas when we look at the actual word ("knowledge") as well as the actual context (oddly enough 1 Tim. seems to be concerned with the workings of the church and not with developing explanations for phenomena observed in the physical universe), indicate otherwise.
One thing that God did not create directly, but is still a wonderful invention, is the spacebar on your keyboard. Please consider using it.
As for God not "needing" to use evolution to create the current diversity of life you are very much correct, God certainly doesn't "need" to use evolution, but the process of evolution is an inevitable effect of how life reproduces on this planet. Consequently, God doesn't need "gravity" to keep us from flying off into space or to keep the earth revolving around the sun or to keep Jupiter's +60 moons from heading out into deep space either - yet He chose to create a universe that with a peculiar space-time that was affected by mass. The point being that God doesn't need to do anything, yet He undeniably still does some things.
I'm really not sure what you're trying to say here. Atomic theory is pretty well understood, and physicists deal with particles smaller than an atom on a regular basis. . .perhaps you could explain a little more about what you mean here.
Lurker
One thing that God did not create directly, but is still a wonderful invention, is the spacebar on your keyboard. Please consider using it.
As for God not "needing" to use evolution to create the current diversity of life you are very much correct, God certainly doesn't "need" to use evolution, but the process of evolution is an inevitable effect of how life reproduces on this planet. Consequently, God doesn't need "gravity" to keep us from flying off into space or to keep the earth revolving around the sun or to keep Jupiter's +60 moons from heading out into deep space either - yet He chose to create a universe that with a peculiar space-time that was affected by mass. The point being that God doesn't need to do anything, yet He undeniably still does some things.
I'm really not sure what you're trying to say here. Atomic theory is pretty well understood, and physicists deal with particles smaller than an atom on a regular basis. . .perhaps you could explain a little more about what you mean here.
Lurker
Sure, it's in Isaiah 40:22
I have absolutely no idea what this means.
Lurker
22 He sits enthroned above the circle of the earth,
and its people are like grasshoppers.
He stretches out the heavens like a canopy,
and spreads them out like a tent to live in.
The word used for "circle" is chuwg which refers to a "a circle:--circle, circuit, compass." If Isaiah had wanted to refer to a sphere he would have used duwr which refers to a "circle, ball or pile:--ball, turn, round about." and which he did use in Isaiah 22:18and its people are like grasshoppers.
He stretches out the heavens like a canopy,
and spreads them out like a tent to live in.
18 He will roll you up tightly like a ball
and throw you into a large country.
What this obvious error implies is not that the bible cannot be trusted, but merely that it's human author's were writing from within their own ideas of what the physical universe was like. Isaiah, obviously & very understandably, thought the world looked very much like most other people of his time did, something like thisand throw you into a large country.
I have absolutely no idea what this means.
Lurker
A
The science of atheism (e.g. reductive materialism) is a truncated reality. Atheists and many scholars force this distorted view of the world, via public educational settings, onto populaces.
The Christian worldview is not a false one. Authentic spiritually reborn Bible believing Christians are individuals from all walks of life and include some of the brightest minds on the planet (including scientists) whom have aligned themselves with a worldview rooted in reality and truth.
This idea that Christianity and science are separate is a fallicious political ploy which qualifies as nothing more than scientific chauvinism.
As Dr. Francis Collins, the famous director of the National Human Genome Research Institute that decoded the human DNA asserts, science is not a substitute for theology but rather a subset of it.
In my opinion, it is tragic Christians continue to permit atheists to misrepresent science as some form of a justification to perpetuate mistruth regarding Christianity.
Further Reading:
The Reality and Life Institute - Home
The Christian worldview is not a false one. Authentic spiritually reborn Bible believing Christians are individuals from all walks of life and include some of the brightest minds on the planet (including scientists) whom have aligned themselves with a worldview rooted in reality and truth.
This idea that Christianity and science are separate is a fallicious political ploy which qualifies as nothing more than scientific chauvinism.
As Dr. Francis Collins, the famous director of the National Human Genome Research Institute that decoded the human DNA asserts, science is not a substitute for theology but rather a subset of it.
In my opinion, it is tragic Christians continue to permit atheists to misrepresent science as some form of a justification to perpetuate mistruth regarding Christianity.
Further Reading:
The Reality and Life Institute - Home
C
The Bible using the same common language to describe the world around it, phenominological language. So when I say that the sun rises, it does not mean that the sun in moving around the earth. Describing the earth as a circle is phenominologically correct, as anyone who has climbed a really tall mountain will tell you. The Bible is not a science textbook, but it is nevertheless true and factual. The problem with science is that we were for fifty years enamoured with it. Science became an idol. And many prominent scientists began to indulge in social, cultural and religious commentary. But science has not been the salvation which some sought. We now live in a post-scientific culture because of the disappointment. Micro-evolution as a study is harmless. Evolution as a philosophy is devilish. Psychology as a branch of medicine has a place. Psychology as the great healer of minds is an abysmal failure. Medicine as a science is wondrous. Medicine as the tool of life and death is socially devistating.
G
This was the word i looked up:
chuwg -- pronounced: khoog
from 2328; a circle: KJV -- circle, circuit, compass.
See Hebrew No. 2328 <H2328>
And what I was tried to say was where the scripture says the Earth is firmly established it can't be moved meaning it's always going to be there (even if it gets changed)
chuwg -- pronounced: khoog
from 2328; a circle: KJV -- circle, circuit, compass.
See Hebrew No. 2328 <H2328>
And what I was tried to say was where the scripture says the Earth is firmly established it can't be moved meaning it's always going to be there (even if it gets changed)
A
The ancient Greeks argued about particulars. They struggled to make sense of the particulars they encountered in nature (e.g. general revelation) and which particulars, interpreted correctly, would lead them to the universal truth they so earnestly sought.
In scripture, we find God's revealed universal truth. We now possess what the ancient Greeks so earnestly wanted to understand. As a result of possessing special revelation, the trend reversed itself. Now we examine what and how God did what He did looking at particulars. An example of this examination would include the discussion currently taking place regarding creation and the various creation models presented in Christiandom which range from theistic evolution to old earth/progressive creation to young earth creation.
Now the enemy, historically, has always constructed counterfeit models to deceive humans with. They have ranged from occultic ancient pagan religious systems to the modern atheistic reductive materialistic worldview or pantheistic worldview we encounter today in the 21st century. These constructs are designed to deceive, entrap, and then enlist people against God's kingdom and those in it... exactly what we see them engaging in the world around us.
The deceptions, lies, false assertions, etc... regarding nature, the world we live in, and our belief system are easily revealed once one is studied and filled with God's spirit.
In scripture, we find God's revealed universal truth. We now possess what the ancient Greeks so earnestly wanted to understand. As a result of possessing special revelation, the trend reversed itself. Now we examine what and how God did what He did looking at particulars. An example of this examination would include the discussion currently taking place regarding creation and the various creation models presented in Christiandom which range from theistic evolution to old earth/progressive creation to young earth creation.
Now the enemy, historically, has always constructed counterfeit models to deceive humans with. They have ranged from occultic ancient pagan religious systems to the modern atheistic reductive materialistic worldview or pantheistic worldview we encounter today in the 21st century. These constructs are designed to deceive, entrap, and then enlist people against God's kingdom and those in it... exactly what we see them engaging in the world around us.
The deceptions, lies, false assertions, etc... regarding nature, the world we live in, and our belief system are easily revealed once one is studied and filled with God's spirit.
B
Science....The observation, identification, description, experimental investigation, and theoretical explanation of phenomena.
The Bible...the observation, description, investigation and factual explanation of GOD... who just happened to create all the phenomena being observed, described, investigated and theoretically explained by science.
The Bible...the observation, description, investigation and factual explanation of GOD... who just happened to create all the phenomena being observed, described, investigated and theoretically explained by science.
C
medical science??? God made the doctors and the herbs to heal the body. I dont think God is so cruel to have made it so hard to cure any ailment of the body yet for every medical breakthru thousands perish in the process.
alot of medical drugs address the symptoms not the root. Any one suffering acute pain taking pain relief over a long period ends up not dying from the source of the pain, the drugs taken do more damage in the long run.
alot of medical drugs address the symptoms not the root. Any one suffering acute pain taking pain relief over a long period ends up not dying from the source of the pain, the drugs taken do more damage in the long run.
Science does not equal evolution
Science equals the study of truth
Now as for the bible talking of a circle.. and not a sphere...
Remember one thing.. people believed the earth was flat.. while the bible was claiming it was circular.....
another thing-- a word by itself cannot be taken to mean what it is without the surrounding context it sits in--
is not a circle- close enough to a sphere-- to be considered accurate science?
What about other parts of the bible like Genesis-- which mentions water being in the atmosphere.. which scientists have now recently confirmed?
What about Job mentioning an animal that is as close to the description of a terrible lizard (dinosaur) as you can get?
What about the science of archealogy.. that has been continuously validating claims the bible has made about city locations.. people who lived...journeys people made like Paul.. etc etc.. not to mention the reliability and validity of the books of the gospel?
When the bibe is right on truckloads of references.. why would it then be wrong about a reference to the shape of the earth? Surely the error is not with the bible.. but with the person who is reading it--
Study the historial reality of JESUS CHRIST using the scientific disciplines of archealogy and history study and then see if science and the bible mix...
History reveals.. Jesus was either a liar, lunatic, the Devil, or God Himself.. there are no other alternatives.
Science equals the study of truth
Now as for the bible talking of a circle.. and not a sphere...
Remember one thing.. people believed the earth was flat.. while the bible was claiming it was circular.....
another thing-- a word by itself cannot be taken to mean what it is without the surrounding context it sits in--
is not a circle- close enough to a sphere-- to be considered accurate science?
What about other parts of the bible like Genesis-- which mentions water being in the atmosphere.. which scientists have now recently confirmed?
What about Job mentioning an animal that is as close to the description of a terrible lizard (dinosaur) as you can get?
What about the science of archealogy.. that has been continuously validating claims the bible has made about city locations.. people who lived...journeys people made like Paul.. etc etc.. not to mention the reliability and validity of the books of the gospel?
When the bibe is right on truckloads of references.. why would it then be wrong about a reference to the shape of the earth? Surely the error is not with the bible.. but with the person who is reading it--
Study the historial reality of JESUS CHRIST using the scientific disciplines of archealogy and history study and then see if science and the bible mix...
History reveals.. Jesus was either a liar, lunatic, the Devil, or God Himself.. there are no other alternatives.
A circle is flat.
No, since they are two different shapes.
"Recently"?
While I agree that archaeology has shown us that much of the bible is reliable, it has also shown us that some of the stories in the OT aren't literal. For instance, we have certainly found that the city of Jericho was a real place. . .but we've also found that it has been continuously inhabited since at least 3000 B.C. which means that it's inhabitants neglected to all die during a global flood 4,350 years ago. Then there's always Byblos, which is also mentioned in the bible, which has a continuous record of habitation stretching back to 5,000 B.C..
Lurker
No, since they are two different shapes.
"Recently"?
While I agree that archaeology has shown us that much of the bible is reliable, it has also shown us that some of the stories in the OT aren't literal. For instance, we have certainly found that the city of Jericho was a real place. . .but we've also found that it has been continuously inhabited since at least 3000 B.C. which means that it's inhabitants neglected to all die during a global flood 4,350 years ago. Then there's always Byblos, which is also mentioned in the bible, which has a continuous record of habitation stretching back to 5,000 B.C..
Lurker