Did Jesus abolish the law? Should we keep the commandments?

[Grandpa]

RED. Really! So we can go round stealing, murdering, worshipping false gods and graven images......

Come on, you know better than that.

Originally Posted by Grandpa

The ten commandments are not for all time.

They are only for people who HAVE NOT come to Christ. For people who don't believe in the New Covenant in Christ.

2 Corinthians 3:6-9
6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:
8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?
9 For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.

If the letter kills but the spirit gives life then to put yourself back under the 10 commandments after coming to Christ and receiving Life is to put yourself back under death.

Romans 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

Romans 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

So you are saying you don't care about scripture you only care about your philosophy?

That's fine. Its better to be honest than to twist scripture to try to uphold the lie.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Grandpa is saying the Ten Commandments are only for non-Christians. Does that mean Christians are exempt? Perhaps he would like to expand on that?

As a christian. Do you have a question about adultry being a sin? About not loving God being a sin? Do you believe Coveting is a sin? Do you believe bearing false witness is a sin? Do you have problems understanding these things?

 

[Grandpa]

As a christian. Do you have a question about adultry being a sin? About not loving God being a sin? Do you believe Coveting is a sin? Do you believe bearing false witness is a sin? Do you have problems understanding these things?

If he doesn't understand scripture then he won't understand our explanations.

What I want to know is where, exactly, in scripture does it say it is ok to separate the law into parts and then abolish certain parts but keep other parts?

The Lord Himself says not ONE jot or tittle shall fall from the law until All is fulfilled. And He said He came to fulfill it.

So if any part is fulfilled, and we are therefore not under it, then ALL OF IT IS FULFILLED AND WE AREN'T UNDER ANY OF IT. When we come to Christ and abide in Him.

Oh well. You either understand or you don't.

 

[loveme1]

If he doesn't understand scripture then he won't understand our explanations.

What I want to know is where, exactly, in scripture does it say it is ok to separate the law into parts and then abolish certain parts but keep other parts?

The Lord Himself says not ONE jot or tittle shall fall from the law until All is fulfilled. And He said He came to fulfill it.

So if any part is fulfilled, and we are therefore not under it, then ALL OF IT IS FULFILLED AND WE AREN'T UNDER ANY OF IT. When we come to Christ and abide in Him.

Oh well. You either understand or you don't.

That is interesting...

 

[eternally-gratefull]

If he doesn't understand scripture then he won't understand our explanations.

What I want to know is where, exactly, in scripture does it say it is ok to separate the law into parts and then abolish certain parts but keep other parts?

The Lord Himself says not ONE jot or tittle shall fall from the law until All is fulfilled. And He said He came to fulfill it.

So if any part is fulfilled, and we are therefore not under it, then ALL OF IT IS FULFILLED AND WE AREN'T UNDER ANY OF IT. When we come to Christ and abide in Him.

Oh well. You either understand or you don't.

We know the Pharisee knew the OT like no one else in their day, Yet they did not KNOW the OT at all.

Knowing the Bible does not make one have KNOWELEDGE of scripture.

Thats why we need to have an open mind. And understand we may KNOW the word (what it says) it does not mean we know it (have knowledge of what it really is saying)

 

[Grandpa]

That is interesting...

Interesting because it is a good point...???

Or interesting because it can't be right...???

 

[PS]

So you are saying you don't care about scripture you only care about your philosophy?

That's fine. Its better to be honest than to twist scripture to try to uphold the lie.

I care very much about scripture and not at all about philosophy and I thought you were the same. This is why I was stunned when you said, "The ten commandments are not for all time." I'm hoping you will explain the "why's and wherefores" for saying that from scripture, because hopefully I have misunderstood.

 

[PS]

Let me explain:
God's law says to; “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind’; and to, ‘Love your neighbour as yourself.’”

We are also told to keep the Sabbath holy. The Jews took it to the extreme and Jesus illustrated this in the Parable of the Good Samaritan. Both the Priest and the Levite (remember the Levitical law) passed by on the other side, but the Samaritan took pity on him. He went to him and bandaged his wounds, he poured on oil and wine. He put the man on his own donkey. He brought him to an inn and took care of him. The next day he took out two denarii and gave them to the innkeeper saying ‘Look after him, and when I return, I will reimburse you for any extra expense you may have.’

The Good Samaritan went more than the extra mile. He followed God's Law which is to love your neighbour as yourself. God's law is Holy and as a result the Sabbath remained holy. According to Jewish Law the Good Samaritan was working and it is this man-made Jewish law that Jesus ended. If you remember, they also perverted the law, so enabling them to rob their parents.

God's law is for all people for all time. It was Jewish Law that was more than just the 613 Mitzvot Laws which Jesus ended.

I hope this helps.

 

[Hizikyah]

Let me explain:
God's law says to; “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind’; and to, ‘Love your neighbour as yourself.’”

We are also told to keep the Sabbath holy. The Jews took it to the extreme and Jesus illustrated this in the Parable of the Good Samaritan. Both the Priest and the Levite (remember the Levitical law) passed by on the other side, but the Samaritan took pity on him. He went to him and bandaged his wounds, he poured on oil and wine. He put the man on his own donkey. He brought him to an inn and took care of him. The next day he took out two denarii and gave them to the innkeeper saying ‘Look after him, and when I return, I will reimburse you for any extra expense you may have.’

The Good Samaritan went more than the extra mile. He followed God's Law which is to love your neighbour as yourself. God's law is Holy and as a result the Sabbath remained holy. According to Jewish Law the Good Samaritan was working and it is this man-made Jewish law that Jesus ended. If you remember, they also perverted the law, so enabling them to rob their parents.

God's law is for all people for all time. It was Jewish Law that was more than just the 613 Mitzvot Laws which Jesus ended.

I hope this helps.

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Mark 7:1-9, “And the Pharisees and some of the scribes assembled to Him, having come from Yerushalayim. And seeing some of His taught ones eat bread with defiled, that is, with unwashed hands, they found fault. For the Pharisees, and all the Yehuḏim, do not eat unless they wash their hands thoroughly, holding fast the tradition of the elders, and coming from the market-place, they do not eat unless they wash. And there are many other traditions which they have received and hold fast – the washing of cups and utensils and copper vessels and couches. Then the Pharisees and scribes asked Him, “Why do Your taught ones not walk according to the tradition of the elders, but eat bread with unwashed hands? And He answering, said to them, “Well did Yeshayahu prophesy concerning you hypocrites, as it has been written, ‘This people respect Me with their lips, but their heart is far from Me. And in vain do they worship Me, teaching as doctrine the commands of men.’ Forsaking the command of YHWH, you hold fast the tradition of men. And He said to them, “Well do you set aside the command of YHWH, in order to guard your tradition."[/FONT]

 

[PS]

Mark 7:1-9, “And the Pharisees and some of the scribes assembled to Him, having come from Yerushalayim. And seeing some of His taught ones eat bread with defiled, that is, with unwashed hands, they found fault. For the Pharisees, and all the Yehuḏim, do not eat unless they wash their hands thoroughly, holding fast the tradition of the elders, and coming from the market-place, they do not eat unless they wash. And there are many other traditions which they have received and hold fast – the washing of cups and utensils and copper vessels and couches. Then the Pharisees and scribes asked Him, “Why do Your taught ones not walk according to the tradition of the elders, but eat bread with unwashed hands? And He answering, said to them, “Well did Yeshayahu prophesy concerning you hypocrites, as it has been written, ‘This people respect Me with their lips, but their heart is far from Me. And in vain do they worship Me, teaching as doctrinethe commands of men.’ Forsaking the command of YHWH, you hold fast the tradition of men. And He said to them, “Well do you set aside the command of YHWH, in order to guard your tradition."

Yes, you are right. The excellent passage you posted speaks of Jewish traditions and the commands of men, not of God. Good job, well done.

 

[Hizikyah]

Yes, you are right. The excellent passage you posted speaks of Jewish traditions and the commands of men, not of God. Good job, well done.

I also enjoyed your post.

You now I think people get the man made laws of judasim/talmud mixed up with the Laws of YHWH and throw the baby out with the bath water kind of thing. Yahshua/Jesus made a clear distinction between what YHWH says and what man says, and that what man says is useless. From speaking with you here I know you understand not just that the Talmud (main book of Judaisim) is man made but also evil, but again I think many dont know there difference between talmud and what Yah says, because I have seen many look at Matt 15 or Mark 7 and say the pharisee laws were in the OT, andthey are not.

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Acts 5:29, "And Kĕpha and the other emissaries answering, said, “We have to obey YHWH rather than men.” [/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]John 2:5, “His mother said to the servants, “Do whatever He says to you.”[/FONT]

 

[Grandpa]

I care very much about scripture and not at all about philosophy and I thought you were the same. This is why I was stunned when you said, "The ten commandments are not for all time." I'm hoping you will explain the "why's and wherefores" for saying that from scripture, because hopefully I have misunderstood.

The 10 commandments are what bring us to Christ.

So, they are for all time in that respect. They are to draw everyone who is going to be drawn, to Christ.

But once someone comes to Christ they are no longer binding. Once faith has come we are no longer under the schoolmaster.

And by binding I mean we don't work at them in our, or anyone elses, understanding and strength.

Instead of working at the 10 commandments, which we can't perform, we have faith that the Lord Jesus Christ changes us and grows spiritual fruit in our lives. And we find out that it is this spiritual fruit that fulfills the law and not our carnal understanding or carnal will or carnal strength.

 

[Grandpa]

Yes, you are right. The excellent passage you posted speaks of Jewish traditions and the commands of men, not of God. Good job, well done.

Which is the same exact thing the judaizers and legalists of our time do.

They set aside the command of God so that they can guard their tradition.

Matthew 11:28 [FONT=&quot]Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.[/FONT]

 

[PS]

I also enjoyed your post.

You now I think people get the man made laws of judasim/talmud mixed up with the Laws of YHWH and throw the baby out with the bath water kind of thing. Yahshua/Jesus made a clear distinction between what YHWH says and what man says, and that what man says is useless. From speaking with you here I know you understand not just that the Talmud (main book of Judaisim) is man made but also evil, but again I think many dont know there difference between talmud and what Yah says, because I have seen many look at Matt 15 or Mark 7 and say the pharisee laws were in the OT, andthey are not.

Acts 5:29, "And Kĕpha and the other emissaries answering, said, “We have to obey YHWH rather than men.”


John 2:5, “His mother said to the servants, “Do whatever He says to you.”

You are right and as a Gentile myself, I bow to your greater knowledge.

 

[PS]

Which is the same exact thing the judaizers and legalists of our time do.

They set aside the command of God so that they can guard their tradition.

Matthew 11:28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.

RED. Yes. Jesus also said no man can serve two masters and after 2000 years they have had time enough.

 

[Hizikyah]

You are right and as a Gentile myself, I bow to your greater knowledge.

I don't know if you meant this sarcastically or not but, we should not "bow" to each other, for we are but brothers both seeking the same Messiah, we may be in different places and have different pieces of truth, and different views but we seek the same Master and are but brothers. Also none are "gentiles" any longer in Messiah but grafter in to Israyl:


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Romans 9:6-8, "However, it is not as though YHWH's plan had failed. For it is not everyone who is a descendant of Yisra’yl who belongs to Yisra’yl. Nor, just because they are his descendants, are they all Abraham's children; but: In Isaac will your seed be called. That is, it is not those who are the children of the flesh who are YHWH's children; but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham's seed."[/FONT]

 

[BillG]

Let me explain:
God's law says to; “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind’; and to, ‘Love your neighbour as yourself.’”

We are also told to keep the Sabbath holy. The Jews took it to the extreme and Jesus illustrated this in the Parable of the Good Samaritan. Both the Priest and the Levite (remember the Levitical law) passed by on the other side, but the Samaritan took pity on him. He went to him and bandaged his wounds, he poured on oil and wine. He put the man on his own donkey. He brought him to an inn and took care of him. The next day he took out two denarii and gave them to the innkeeper saying ‘Look after him, and when I return, I will reimburse you for any extra expense you may have.’

The Good Samaritan went more than the extra mile. He followed God's Law which is to love your neighbour as yourself. God's law is Holy and as a result the Sabbath remained holy. According to Jewish Law the Good Samaritan was working and it is this man-made Jewish law that Jesus ended. If you remember, they also perverted the law, so enabling them to rob their parents.

God's law is for all people for all time. It was Jewish Law that was more than just the 613 Mitzvot Laws which Jesus ended.

I hope this helps.

Hi PS,

I hope you are having a good day.
Good post above and one of my favorites.
One thing I do like is that too me Jesus took the 2 greatest commandant's further by telling us to love our enemies.

Luke 10:25-30
The Parable of the Good Samaritan
25 And behold, a certain lawyer stood up and tested Him, saying, “Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?”
26 He said to him, “What is written in the law? What is your reading of it?”
27 So he answered and said, “‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your strength, and with all your mind,’ and ‘your neighbor as yourself.’ ”
28 And He said to him, “You have answered rightly; do this and you will live.”
29 But he, wanting to justify himself, said to Jesus, “And who is my neighbor?”
30 Then Jesus answered and said: “A certain man went down from Jerusalem to Jericho, and fell among thieves, who stripped him of his clothing, wounded him, and departed, leaving him half dead.


Or seems to me the lawyer was looking for an escape clause as such, to limit the demands of the law by saying some people are our neighbours and send are not.
In a sense what's the least we need to do in order to obey the law.

As usual Jesus saw right through this. He was great at doing that.

The Samaritan would have been an enemy to the Jews.
The priest and the Levite would have been the good guys and the Samaritan the baddy.
To me Jesus was reversing this, the priest and the Levite were the bad guys and the Samaritan the good guy.

My guess is that the Samaritan would not have known this guy or they they were of the same race.
But he saw a men in need and helped him.

Jesus saying you look for minimal obedience but I am looking for obedience to the true intent of the law.

I'm gonna reply again to your above post.

 

[PS]

I don't know if you meant this sarcastically or not but, we should not "bow" to each other, for we are but brothers both seeking the same Messiah, we may be in different places and have different pieces of truth, and different views but we seek the same Master and are but brothers. Also none are "gentiles" any longer in Messiah but grafter in to Israyl:


Romans 9:6-8, "However, it is not as though YHWH's plan had failed. For it is not everyone who is a descendant of Yisra’yl who belongs to Yisra’yl. Nor, just because they are his descendants, are they all Abraham's children; but: In Isaac will your seed be called. That is, it is not those who are the children of the flesh who are YHWH's children; but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham's seed."

No I did not mean it sarcastically and maybe I should have said 'accept' instead of bow, which I meant in an intellectual sense. Nice thought about being grafted to the vine.

 

[BillG]

Let me explain:
God's law says to; “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind’; and to, ‘Love your neighbour as yourself.’”

Your post above is what Jesus said.

To me this sums up the 10 commandments as I understand it.
1-4 & 5-10.

What I see is a lot of talk of obeying the command (s) of God (and on a side note to me when people say we must obey the commands of God the Sabbath always comes up and test seems the biggest one to break and fall foul of that even if you keep 5-10 tough luck your out, not wishing to start a discussion on that here as there's already one going)

You mention the 613 laws and that was what Jesus abolished. The Mitzvot

My understanding is that they are the Levitical law which can be divided into 3 categories.

Ceremonial, judicial/civic and moral.

To me the the ceremonial was specific to Israel.
The judicial was specific to Israel culturally (and we have such laws today)

The moral?
To me it's universal and has not been done away with.
To me it's the 10 commandments given to Moses.

Romans 2:15-16
15 who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them) 16 in the day when God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my gospel.

Hebrews 10:16-18


16 “This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, says the Lord: I will put My laws into their hearts, and in their minds I will write them,” 17 then He adds, “Their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more.” 18 Now where there is remission of these, there is no longer an offering for sin.

Jeremiah 31:31-34
A New Covenant
31 “Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah— 32 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, though I was a husband to them, says the Lord.
33 But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.
34 No more shall every man teach his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them, says the Lord. For I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more.”

I think for me the issue is should we keep the commandment's and that's the focus.

We get busy doing rather than being.

What are we?
Children of the Father, the one who we call Abba Father.
If the focus is just sent do this and don't do that then we miss the bigger picture.
That being relationship.
God wants kids who want a relationship.

Not only does he want us to be like him he wants to deal and heal and get rid off stuff that hinders that.
He wants us to know we are truly loved where we are at yet his love for us is so great he wants to move us beyond where we are at.

If we could truly trust that then obeying is not the focus and his not the issue.
Obedience will be in our hearts.
Because we love him and know he loves us and we want to be like him.

What's your thoughts?

 

[PS]

Your post above is what Jesus said.

To me this sums up the 10 commandments as I understand it.
1-4 & 5-10.

What I see is a lot of talk of obeying the command (s) of God (and on a side note to me when people say we must obey the commands of God the Sabbath always comes up and test seems the biggest one to break and fall foul of that even if you keep 5-10 tough luck your out, not wishing to start a discussion on that here as there's already one going)

You mention the 613 laws and that was what Jesus abolished. The Mitzvot

My understanding is that they are the Levitical law which can be divided into 3 categories.

Ceremonial, judicial/civic and moral.

To me the the ceremonial was specific to Israel.
The judicial was specific to Israel culturally (and we have such laws today)

The moral?
To me it's universal and has not been done away with.
To me it's the 10 commandments given to Moses.

Romans 2:15-16
15 who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them) 16 in the day when God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my gospel.

Hebrews 10:16-18


16 “This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, says the Lord: I will put My laws into their hearts, and in their minds I will write them,” 17 then He adds, “Their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more.” 18 Now where there is remission of these, there is no longer an offering for sin.

Jeremiah 31:31-34
A New Covenant
31 “Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah— 32 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, though I was a husband to them, says the Lord.
33 But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.
34 No more shall every man teach his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them, says the Lord. For I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more.”

I think for me the issue is should we keep the commandment's and that's the focus.

We get busy doing rather than being.

What are we?
Children of the Father, the one who we call Abba Father.
If the focus is just sent do this and don't do that then we miss the bigger picture.
That being relationship.
God wants kids who want a relationship.

Not only does he want us to be like him he wants to deal and heal and get rid off stuff that hinders that.
He wants us to know we are truly loved where we are at yet his love for us is so great he wants to move us beyond where we are at.

If we could truly trust that then obeying is not the focus and his not the issue.
Obedience will be in our hearts.
Because we love him and know he loves us and we want to be like him.

What's your thoughts?

My thoughts are that I need to go to bed, sorry.

I am glad you said about the New Covenant, they hated the prophets because they told the truth. Did you know they cut Isaiah in half with a saw? And the apostles died horrible deaths too. Looking at the bold in the verse below, I sometimes wonder if Jesus was talking pre-incarnation? I wonder what others think?

O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, which killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee; how often would I have gathered thy children together, as a hen doth gather her brood under her wings, and ye would not! (Luk 13:34 KJV)

About the commandments, I feel the Ten set the minimum standard for all, they do after all form the basis of all our laws. But as Christians I feel we have a higher calling. Personally at 73 years of age, the things of the world have become strangely dim, they hold no attractions for me and therefore I am not tempted, so for myself I seek a closer walk with God and try to live according to the commands he set out in the Sermon on the Mount, which I find exceedingly hard in relation to other people, the majority of whom have no thought for others and only think of themselves, a little like the scribes and Pharisees who were so proud. So yes I am still being tested and you will find that also. So what I do is to look more and more to Jesus each day till the race is run. Speak to you again and may God bless.