Pope Amends Bible, Art. LORD's prayer

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And then if any man shall say to you, Lo, here is Christ; or, lo, he is there; believe him not: Mark 13:21

When ones beliefs are founded upon verses quoted in isolation from the context of the verses around then then ones beliefs can be founded upon quicksand..

In context the passage says::

Mark 13: KJV
19 "Forin those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be. {20} And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect’s sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days. {21} And then if any man shall say to you, Lo, here is Christ; or, lo, he is there; believe him not: {22} For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect. {23} But take ye heed: behold, I have foretold you all things. {24} ¶ But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,"

So in context Jesus was talking about a specific period of time in those days which are a future time near the time of His return.. He is not talking about people telling us where the Spirit of Jesus is.. He is specifically pointing to false flesh human prophets and humans who shall claim to be Christ who shall rise in the those days.. The scriptures are not telling you to disregard someone who comes along and tells you that the Body of Jesus is at the right hand of the Father in heaven and that His Spirit is with all Christians at the same time...

 

[dcontroversal]

Yeah all the poops think they are all that and a bag of chips.....contrary to Catholic dogma...they are not the vicars of God on earth......! Oooops I meant POPES.........shucks

 

[Grandpa]

More edifying IMO to discuss the rationale and the text in question than to make this just one more pope-bashing thread to add to CC's enormous mound of those...

By the change in wording it looks like this pope doesn't care for Gods Sovereignty.

He wants to wrest that sovereignty back to the people, to the Catholic church specifically.

Because Catholics are supposed to look to the priests for what they are supposed to do to appease God after they have submitted to temptation.

 

[Zmouth]

When ones beliefs are founded upon verses quoted in isolation from the context of the verses around then then ones beliefs can be founded upon quicksand..

Possibly. Then again, a fool hath no delight in understanding, but that his heart may discover itself. So if the fool can't hear the truth that is the same yesterday, today and forever then the hope was that maybe they could see the truth since faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God.

 

[Zmouth]

By the change in wording it looks like this pope doesn't care for Gods Sovereignty.

Good point. John 7:24 Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment.

 

[joefizz]

How can the LORD tempt someone he doesn't even know? Matt 7:23

Saying God tempted Abraham because you read it in the Bible would be like saying you don't believe what you read in the Bible since it is written that it is not what goes in a man that defiles him but what comes forth from man that defiles him. So do you consider that the following is true?

Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: James 1:13

It is written in John 3:11 that Jesus said, "Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen;" So if God didn't tell you he tempted Abraham then you must have some knowledge from your experience that would lead you to believe God tempted Abraham. Care to give your testimony?

From where I sit I can't say I have any knowledge of anything that would tempt me

uh huh,So when it is written "clear as day" mind you that "God tempted Abraham" it wasn't God,fascinating...

 

[Zmouth]

uh huh,So when it is written "clear as day" mind you that "God tempted Abraham" it wasn't God,fascinating...

Then if it is written 'clear as day' that God tempted Abraham then how did he tempt Abraham?

 

[Zmouth]

And it came to pass after these things, that God did tempt Abraham, and said unto him, Abraham: 22:1


So did God tempt Abraham by speaking to him?

"and he said, Behold, here I am." Gen 22:1

So who said "Behold, here I am"?

• Was it God speaking to Abraham since being invisible he would have to tell him where he was since Abraham wouldn't have been able to see him?
• Or was it Abraham replying to God after hearing him call his name?

 

[valiant]

And it came to pass after these things, that God did tempt Abraham, and said unto him, Abraham: 22:1


So did God tempt Abraham by speaking to him?

"and he said, Behold, here I am." Gen 22:1

So who said "Behold, here I am"?

• Was it God speaking to Abraham since being invisible he would have to tell him where he was since Abraham wouldn't have been able to see him?
• Or was it Abraham replying to God after hearing him call his name?

This should actually be translated 'God tested Abraham'. When KJV was translated the word 'tempt' meant among other things 'testing' without 'temptation' being involved.

Thus we do not pray 'lead us not into temptation', which God would never do, but 'lead us not into testing'. We are thereby indicating our own weakness and our awareness that we can only face testing when God approves.

 

[joefizz]

Then if it is written 'clear as day' that God tempted Abraham then how did he tempt Abraham?

Very well...
Genesis chp.22 verse 1(KJV)
And it came to pass after these things,that God did tempt Abraham,and said unto him,Abraham:and he said,Behold, here I am.

 

[posthuman]

How can the LORD tempt someone he doesn't even know? Matt 7:23

who does omniscient God not know?

John 2:24-25

But Jesus did not commit Himself to them, because He knew all [men,] and had no need that anyone should testify of man, for He knew what was in man.

 

[posthuman]

Very well...
Genesis chp.22 verse 1(KJV)
And it came to pass after these things,that God did tempt Abraham,and said unto him,Abraham:and he said,Behold, here I am.

In English, we understand 'tempt' and 'test' and 'prove' as different words, but the Greek word carries both meanings tempt & test, and the Hebrew is a word that can mean to test or to prove.

but to understand both the 'test/temptation' of Abraham and of Christ, i think we should understand also that this means 'prove' - which is to test ((or in archaic English, to tempt, which is not the same connotation necessarily in the older sense as it is in our contemporary language)) a thing with complete confidence that it will not fail, to demonstrate, as Yah did with Job.
Especially with Jesus this should be understood, because though the Serpent may not have known Who was here enfleshed, we blaspheme in our minds if we think God can be tempted, as though it were possible for Him to sin!

 

[Zmouth]

This should actually be translated 'God tested Abraham'. When KJV was translated the word 'tempt' meant among other things 'testing' without 'temptation' being involved.

Thus we do not pray 'lead us not into temptation', which God would never do, but 'lead us not into testing'. We are thereby indicating our own weakness and our awareness that we can only face testing when God approves.

Oh ok, so God didn't know whether or not Abraham would kill his own kid or was that God testing Abram since he already knew that Abram would lie because Abram had already done that? Wouldn't God already know without having to test?

Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it. John 8:44


So is being married to his sister the reason why the LORD told Abram to get out his country?

Now the LORD had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee: Gen 12:1

So who told Pharaoh that Sarai was Abram's wife?

And Pharaoh called Abram, and said, What is this that thou hast done unto me? why didst thou not tell me that she was thy wife? Why saidst thou, She is my sister? so I might have taken her to me to wife: now therefore behold thy wife, take her, and go thy way. And Pharaoh commanded his men concerning him: and they sent him away, and his wife, and all that he had.
Gen 12:18-20

So if God's word is the same yesterday, today and forever it changes not, then maybe they translated sister wrong and it really did mean sister in the sense of being the biological offspring of his father or his mother? Could it be possible?

*Remember this is a discussion, not an inquisition.

 

[Zmouth]

who does omniscient God not know?

John 2:24-25

But Jesus did not commit Himself to them, because He knew all [men,] and had no need that anyone should testify of man, for He knew what was in man.

So if Jesus is going to say he never knew me, then is he a eurythmic?

And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. Matt 7:23

He has never screwed me, how bout you?

 

[valiant]

Oh ok, so God didn't know whether or not Abraham would kill his own kid or was that God testing Abram since he already knew that Abram would lie because Abram had already done that? Wouldn't God already know without having to test?

God was testing Abraham for Abraham's benefit He Himself knew what he would do.

So is being married to his sister the reason why the LORD told Abram to get out his country?

Now the LORD had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee: Gen 12:1

No

So who told Pharaoh that Sarai was Abram's wife?

And Pharaoh called Abram, and said, What is this that thou hast done unto me? why didst thou not tell me that she was thy wife? Why saidst thou, She is my sister? so I might have taken her to me to wife: now therefore behold thy wife, take her, and go thy way. And Pharaoh commanded his men concerning him: and they sent him away, and his wife, and all that he had.
Gen 12:18-20

His followers

So if God's word is the same yesterday, today and forever it changes not, then maybe they translated sister wrong and it really did mean sister in the sense of being the biological offspring of his father or his mother? Could it be possible?

She was his half sister (Gen 20.12)

 

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Possibly. Then again, a fool hath no delight in understanding, but that his heart may discover itself. So if the fool can't hear the truth that is the same yesterday, today and forever then the hope was that maybe they could see the truth since faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God.

Yeah there is hope if they get to hear the message.. But in the end we all need the guidance of the Holy Spirit.. But the Message of the Bible contains good advice when it tells us..

James 1: KJV
5 "If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him. {6} But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed."

God can transfom a fool into someone wise in the knowledge of salvation, if He wills..

 

[Kavik]

I think a lot of people are making WAY too big a deal out of this – do you know how many variations there are of the Pater Noster in various languages, English included???

Here’s the verse in “da kine talk” (Hawaiian Pidgin): “No let us get chance fo do bad kine stuff, But take us outa dea”. No one seems to have an issue with that version.

Here’s the verse in Galilean Aramaic: w-La ‘ul lan l-nisyon. “and do not pass us through trial”, which is not even close to a lot of modern versions

Many ‘on-line’ versions you find of the prayer in “Aramaic”, by the way, are actually in Syriac; a language which developed (from Aramaic) about 300-400 years later than the time of Jesus.

To reword the line for better clarity or to avoid any possible ambiguity I don’t see is a big deal considering the myriad variations on the prayer as a whole in existence today. It’s essentially a minor hair-splitting change in semantics.

Don’t look at the Greek version either – the original was said in Aramaic; the Greek version is just an attempt at translating the Aramaic.

 

[Adstar]

Oh ok, so God didn't know whether or not Abraham would kill his own kid or was that God testing Abram since he already knew that Abram would lie because Abram had already done that? Wouldn't God already know without having to test?

Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it. John 8:44

Let me use an analogy to try to explain it..

Think of an athletic coach and the athletes he is training to become more capable athletes.. He knows if he pushes his athletes to the very edge of their limits of effort and endurance they will gain physical capabilities superior to what they currently have now.. So he takes his athletes onto a beach with high sand dunes and forces them to run up and down the dunes keeping a close eye on them and forcing them to the very limit of their physical endurance but being a good coach he never pushes them to their breaking point and after a few weeks of this kind of training they are far superior athelites then they where before they started this arduous training..

If you see God as the Coach and Abraham as His athletes in Faith then you can see how God was pushing Abraham to the limit of what he would do as an act of faith.. That being in this case sacrificing his own son.. Now God as the supreme Coach knew that Abraham probably would have reached breaking point if he had actually carried out that sacrifice.. But being the Perfect coach in causing Abraham's faith to grow stronger he ended the training session to protect Abraham from reaching his faith breaking point.. So after the incident Abraham had greater faith and confidence that God would not push him beyond what he could stand..

As a side note there is great symbolic meaning in the story.. Abraham went to the point of sacrificing His only Son in the hills of the land of Moriah ( this is where Abraham was told to go ) Later in the same area Solomon would build the temple on the Hill of Moriah.. and later God offered His only Son Jesus as a sacrifice on a mount just outside the city.. It is cool to imagine that Jesus was executed maybe on the very same spot Abraham had nearly executed his only son on.. Yeah it cannot be proven it was on the same hill,, but it seems to have been in the same area.. Abraham during the incident said to his son in what i believe to be a symbolic and prophetic way that :::

Genesis 22: KJV
7 "And Isaac spake unto Abraham his father, and said, My father: and he said, Here am I, my son. And he said, Behold the fire and the wood: but where is the lamb for a burnt offering? {8} And Abraham said, My son, God will provide himself a lamb for a burnt offering: so they went both of them together."

Yes at the time Abraham was telling his son what he thought was a lie to guard his son as long a possible from the knowledge of what was really happening.. But i sense Abraham was unknowingly inspired to say what he did.. Because as we know Jesus is identified by John the baptist as the Lamb of God..

John 1: KJV
29"¶ The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world."

So is being married to his sister the reason why the LORD told Abram to get out his country?

Now the LORD had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee: Gen 12:1

So who told Pharaoh that Sarai was Abram's wife?

And Pharaoh called Abram, and said, What is this that thou hast done unto me? why didst thou not tell me that she was thy wife? Why saidst thou, She is my sister? so I might have taken her to me to wife: now therefore behold thy wife, take her, and go thy way. And Pharaoh commanded his men concerning him: and they sent him away, and his wife, and all that he had.
Gen 12:18-20

Abraham was still just a man who suffered from fear as much as any other man.. He feared that the Egyptians would kill him to gain his wife..

Genesis 12: KJV
11 "And it came to pass, when he was come near to enter into Egypt, that he said unto Sarai his wife, Behold now, I know that thou art a fair woman to look upon: {12} Therefore it shall come to pass, when the Egyptians shall see thee, that they shall say, This is his wife: and they will kill me, but they will save thee alive. {13} Say, I pray thee, thou art my sister: that it may be well with me for thy sake; and my soul shall live because of thee."

So Sarah was not Abraham's sister he only identified her as his sister out of fear of the Egyptians..

 

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So if Jesus is going to say he never knew me, then is he a eurythmic?

And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. Matt 7:23

He has never screwed me, how bout you?

If Jesus says that to you it will be because he never knew you as a genuine believer and follower of Jesus.. He would not be saying that because he has no knowledge of you.. Jesus definitely knows you and your thoughts..

It's funny to me that the i liked Both the songs you have posted.. I like Simon and garfunkle and i loved the Eurythmics too..

 

[loveme1]

This is about exercising power... I will not be changing to conform with the pope... he wants to worry about not leading people astray with idol worship and falsehood.. abominable alert.

The protest is over when the King Returns and only then.