Calvinists: The Just Shall Live BEFORE Having Faith

[posthuman]

We need to understand that Calvin slavishly followed the ideas of Augustine in that the human will is "a slave to sin" and that total depravity means that sinners cannot even respond to the Gospel unless they are regenerated. But that is sheer nonsense.

"unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God"
​

how do i respond to something i cannot discern?


((i'm not so much trying to push a certain classical soteriology or another as i am trying to make sure we remain aware that we are not talking about the ideas of Biblically illiterate idiots, but instead these are things that have no small amount of basis in scripture & sound logic))

 

[Depleted]

Faith is not a thing,

I can prove this one semantically and logically.

Nouns are person, places, or things.
Faith is a noun.
Thus faith is either a person place or thing.
Faith sometimes is a person, but that's not the word we're using.
There is probably some place named Faith, but that's not what we're using.
Ta-dah! Faith is a thing!

(Come on, EG. Even if you disagree, you have to think that was funny. lol)

 

[Depleted]

simple application of the transitive property to "faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God" shows that God is the originator of faith. it comes by His word, and His word comes out of Himself & does not return to Him empty but "accomplishes His desire and purpose" - He is "living and active"

who else could be?? "all things are made by Him" both "visible and invisible," even "the hearing ear" the LORD has made.

((re: Romans 10:17, Isaiah 55:11, John 1:1, Hebrews 4:12, Colossians 1:16, Proverbs 20:12))

Ah, man! You just out semanticed me! Yeesh!

lol

 

[Depleted]

So in other words salvation is not likely for most. Quite a list you have there. Of course, the thief on the cross to the right of Jesus must've been a rare exception. I didn't see baptism in your list, must be a slight oversight.

It's Order of Salvation. Every Christian, and supposedly Christian, has one. He just copy-pasted the Calvinist one.

Here's the link, so you can decide which way you believe.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ordo_salutis#Different_schemes

 

[eternally-gratefull]

When God repents and changes His mind, He's not surprised. Why people use this terminology is beyond me. If God knew Nineveh would repent, then did He lie when He said, "Yet forty days and Nineveh shall be overthrown"? God either lied or changed His direction based upon Nineveh's response to His word. Nope, God was not surprised at all.

All I can do is suggest you study the character of God morte.

If God can be surprised. He would not make a very good prophet. And you could NEVER consider his prophesies to be anything but guesses. Because God could be suprised again.


Again, God repented he made man also. Did he repent as in man suprised him, or did he repent, as in we are going to try it as different way.

Do not look at Gods repentance the same way a man repents. The two are not comparable. Do not try to humanize God, thats dangerous.

 

[preacher4truth]

I am correct. Prove that I am wrong.

I'm completely logical.

You just proved me correct...

I understand Calvinism better than you...

I am absolutely correct...

I did win here because...

Thanks for confirming...my...post...is correct.

...because I am correct.

Just a synopsis of what you all are dealing with here...

 

[posthuman]

Ah, man! You just out semanticed me! Yeesh!

lol

Not to mention I tossed some math in there hahaha

 

[eternally-gratefull]

How do you define faith?

I always thought saving faith was trust in God and His plan of salvation.

However some people have faith in the wrong things

Baptism is a thing

Being circumcised is a thing.

Giving to the poor is a thing

Joining a church and taking communion are things.

These are also GOOD things, yet a nine child of God can do those things, so saying they can not do good because they are not born off God is a little misleading.

Either way, To the child of God. Faith is what POWERS those things. And were do we get faith from? God. Why? He is faithful.

Even for a child of God, faith in areas of our lives must be learned. We do not just trust God in all things, if we did. We would immediately be mature Christians, and we would most likely be sinless.

 

[posthuman]

Philippians 1:29
For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on Him, but also to suffer for His sake

Does this say belief is something given to us? Or just 'opportunity to believe'?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Philippians 1:29
For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on Him, but also to suffer for His sake

Does this say belief is something given to us? Or just 'opportunity to believe'?

Everyone is given an opportunity,. The word that we believe in (gospel) Is there for all to see. Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word, Does not mean all who hear will have faith. (Many are called, few are chosen)

God gave us the TOOLS and the CAPABILITY to have faith based on his words and his deeds. The law, true cross, and the HS who was sent to convict the world of righteousness sin and judgment. All working to get her to grow a persons belief until he is forced to make a decision, do I entrust my self to God, or continue to trust self)

Yet as Judas proves, one can walk with God for th4ree years, hear all the words he gave, see all he has done in the power of God. All the tools needed to have faith, yet remain in unbelief.

 

[Nehemiah6]

"unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God"
how do i respond to something i cannot discern?

It is very clear that no one can see or enter the Kingdom of God unless he or she has been "born again" (experienced the New Birth). So you can only discern the Kingdom of God after you are saved.

So the real issue is how does God bring about the New Birth? Jesus said "Except a man be born of WATER and of the SPIRIT he cannot enter the Kingdom of God" (John 3:5). And the Bible tells us that He uses (1) the Gospel and (2) the Holy Spirit to regenerate a sinner and make him a saint, with the Gospel as "the seed" of the New Birth and called "water" as a metaphor, and the Holy Spirit as the Divine Agent of the New Birth. The following Scriptures tell us exactly how this supernatural event occurs.

Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever. For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away: But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you. (1 Peter 1:23-25)

But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared, Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life. (Titus 3:4-7)

 

[posthuman]

You need to realize that you lost the debate

oh it's a game? to win or to lose?

post got hax.

For by the grace given me I say to every one of you: Do not think of yourself more highly than you ought, but rather think of yourself with sober judgment, in accordance with the faith God has distributed to each of you.
(Romans 12:3)

​

 

[posthuman]

It is very clear that no one can see or enter the Kingdom of God unless he or she has been "born again" (experienced the New Birth). So you can only discern the Kingdom of God after you are saved.

So the real issue is how does God bring about the New Birth? Jesus said "Except a man be born of WATER and of the SPIRIT he cannot enter the Kingdom of God" (John 3:5). And the Bible tells us that He uses (1) the Gospel and (2) the Holy Spirit to regenerate a sinner and make him a saint, with the Gospel as "the seed" of the New Birth and called "water" as a metaphor, and the Holy Spirit as the Divine Agent of the New Birth. The following Scriptures tell us exactly how this supernatural event occurs.

Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever. For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away: But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you. (1 Peter 1:23-25)

But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared, Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life. (Titus 3:4-7)

i appreciate how you see "water" in this context as not simply H[SUB]2[/SUB]O

 

[posthuman]

Of course God knows all...and I'm probably steering this away from Jonah, but I really would like to hear a Calvinist's perspective on Jeremiah 18 and why God is giving them the condition of if they repent or turn, then He will repent or change his mind.

it may help to compare Jeremiah 15:19

Therefore thus saith the LORD,
If thou return, then will I bring thee again,
and thou shalt stand before me

​

it reads as if God both requires the returning and accomplishes it, doesn't it?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

oh it's a game? to win or to lose?

post got hax.

For by the grace given me I say to every one of you: Do not think of yourself more highly than you ought, but rather think of yourself with sober judgment, in accordance with the faith God has distributed to each of you.
(Romans 12:3)

​

And to think I liked his post. Thanks for correcting me, Although the point he made about spelling is well proven, it does not prove that anyone lost any debate.

This is not a debate one should win or lose. It should be a discussion between brothers and sisters in Christ. No I must go correct a mistake (remove the like)

 

[posthuman]

it may help to compare Jeremiah 15:19

Therefore thus saith the LORD,
If thou return, then will I bring thee again,
and thou shalt stand before me

​

it reads as if God both requires the returning and accomplishes it, doesn't it?

Douay-Rheims translates this actually "if thou wilt be converted, I will convert thee" -- the sentiment repeated here:

Repent therefore and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, so that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord
(Acts 3:19) ​

"be converted" is passive; you don't convert yourself. "repent" however is active - and there is a distinction between the two, such that the action of "repenting" doesn't equate with self-conversion, but results in conversion by an outside force. repentance itself is only a turning from resistance to submission, a change of heart, or rather, a change from a position of reluctance to relenting: not conversion itself, but desire to be converted

 

[posthuman]

And to think I liked his post. Thanks for correcting me, Although the point he made about spelling is well proven, it does not prove that anyone lost any debate.

This is not a debate one should win or lose. It should be a discussion between brothers and sisters in Christ. No I must go correct a mistake (remove the like)

well his point about sticking to the talking about the idea instead of attacking the person was right

 

[eternally-gratefull]

it may help to compare Jeremiah 15:19

Therefore thus saith the LORD,
If thou return, then will I bring thee again,
and thou shalt stand before me

​

it reads as if God both requires the returning and accomplishes it, doesn't it?

To me this says if you have faith and wish to return, I will bring you and you will stand before me. (God does not force anyone to do anything, if he did not want to return, God would let him go.) Otherwise, this makes no sense.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

well his point about sticking to the talking about the idea instead of attacking the person was right

Yeah I saw that and liked that, but should have noticed the rest.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Douay-Rheims translates this actually "if thou wilt be converted, I will convert thee" -- the sentiment repeated here:

Repent therefore and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, so that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord
(Acts 3:19) ​

"be converted" is passive; you don't convert yourself. "repent" however is active - and there is a distinction between the two, such that the action of "repenting" doesn't equate with self-conversion, but results in conversion by an outside force. repentance itself is only a turning from resistance to submission, a change of heart, or rather, a change from a position of reluctance to relenting: not conversion itself, but desire to be converted

I like this, Now the question is, what is the root of repentance. WHy does a person change their mind about things?