Calvinists: The Just Shall Live BEFORE Having Faith

[eternally-gratefull]

It seems that way to me too - restricting Him from moving about by imprisoning Him in the written word when the Word is living and we follow Him...

He still has to live by his word, he can not contradict his word. And he will not add to his word, because then there would be no way to test to see if it is from him or not.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

He still has to live by his word, he can not contradict his word. And he will not add to his word, because then there would be no way to test to see if it is from him or not.

He IS the word!

Your statement is funny to me because it's like saying...God must live by every word that proceeds from His own mouth.

 

[garee]

Christ illuminates every man providing them with the ability to respond to the gospel. In John 3:19-21 we see mans response.

He gives them the power of faith to respond.We can.....love him because he first worked of loving the creatures by freely giving us a new spirit that will never die .That power is not of ourselves lest any man boast in false pride.

2Corinthians 4:7 But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.

Those who eat of it are those who had been elected from the foundation of the world as the many the father gave to the Son. The father will in no wise cast them out as if he could not finish the good work he did begin in them.

In context John 1:11 is speaking to Israel as the elect peoples who should have seen Messiah. Through the rejection of Christ by His own the blessing of the gospel was opened to all men.

The ones that tasted of the good word and fell away to re-crucify Christ every time they deny him in unbelief, they are not part of the many that will come. There is no Limbo in between.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

He IS the word!

Your statement is funny to me because it's like saying...God must live by every word that proceeds from His own mouth.

Lol, I see your point, However, the Bible. Says we are to test each spirit, If God tells a person something, or a person tells us God told them something, and we cannot test it with the word. How are we to know if it was from God or not? We can not, So I do not see God telling us something outsider his word.

 

[notuptome]

He gives them the power of faith to respond.We can.....love him because he first worked of loving the creatures by freely giving us a new spirit that will never die .That power is not of ourselves lest any man boast in false pride.

2Corinthians 4:7 But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.

Those who eat of it are those who had been elected from the foundation of the world as the many the father gave to the Son. The father will in no wise cast them out as if he could not finish the good work he did begin in them.

God is not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance. There is a universal call for all men to repent. It is a fact that all men will not repent. No universal all men will be saved by irresistible grace. There is no fatalism in the gospel. God did not create men just to condemn them. God created man to glorify God and God loves every soul He has created. Some men glorify God when they repent of their sin and trust Christ for salvation. The others glorify God in their condemnation because despite the great goodness of God they preferred their sin to the love of God.

The ones that tasted of the good word and fell away to re-crucify Christ every time they deny him in unbelief, they are not part of the many that will come. There is no Limbo in between.

Israel did not taste of the mercy of God in the crucifixion of Christ. Israel rejected Christ before the cross. Israel does not re-crucify Christ that is the Roman Catholics.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

Lol, I see your point, However, the Bible. Says we are to test each spirit, If God tells a person something, or a person tells us God told them something, and we cannot test it with the word. How are we to know if it was from God or not? We can not, So I do not see God telling us something outsider his word.

Hmm...I'm not sure how one would test out with the written word if say...someone came to them and said, God told me to tell you that you should move to Philadelphia. Or if you believe God is telling you to go up and speak to someone, how do you test that by the written word...?

Not sure testing spirits is exactly done by searching the written word either.

Discerning of spirits is a gift according to the word.

 

[Angela53510]

That person was attacking me for being correct about the Greek grammar on a verse while agreeing with me about it. It really was bizarre.

I was pointing out that you didn’t know Greek. And that the order of salvation in Greek clearly says faith, grace and salvation are intertwined and come from totally God. Not sure what you don’t get about it.

I went through the Greek, to show that it did not prove your point, except the part that God saves us. Which pretty much every Christian believes. In fact, I don’t know how a true believer could believe anything different.

Sorry you don’t “get” it. Don’t say you know what the Greek says, without proving it with the Greek.

And while I am at it, people need to stop using Strong’s and Thayer’s as sources for Greek. Strong’s is a backwards translation of the KJV. Sometimes it is right, sometimes not. Thayer’s is totally discredited, too many major errors.

Use Bauer (BDAG) for Greek, and Brown-Driver-Briggs for Hebrews. They are Lexicons, which means learning the alphabets for those languages, but such better sources. (This does not apply to DevotiontoBible, since he has used neither!)

 

[Iconoclast]

notuptome;

Hello Friend,
wanted to interact with you here;

God is not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

You did not quote the whole verse, only part of it...God is very willing that multitudes perish,look;
[FONT=&quot]21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]22Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.[/FONT]

There is a universal call for all men to repent. It is a fact that all men will not repent. No universal all men will be saved by irresistible grace. There is no fatalism in the gospel.

No God has determined who will be saved....He elects them, and calls them by name...

God did not create men just to condemn them.

Correct...Gen 1:31 says it was very good

God created man to glorify God and God loves every soul He has created.

Originally, but the fall into sin and death happened in Adam.

[FONT=&quot]5 This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him;[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]2 Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]3 And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, and after his image; and called his name Seth:[/FONT]

Some men glorify God when they repent of their sin and trust Christ for salvation. The others glorify God in their condemnation because despite the great goodness of God they preferred their sin to the love of God.

No one seeks God unless God first seeks Him and grants repentance and faith.

 

[Angela53510]

Originally Posted by DevotiontoBible

That is why the GW gets the Greek across better than other translations there. It isnt God causing people or willing them to be disobedient they cause themselves to be disobedient.

i think you mean "GW gets my interpretation across better" -- even though it is true that men love darkness rather than light, that fact doesn't make being liberal in translation and unfaithful to the actual Greek text "better"

replacing the actual words of the scripture with paraphrasing and inserting words that simply aren't there in no case whatsoever makes something a better "translation"

you lose information when you do that and you stand a very good chance of adding misinformation.

you can contact a mod about possibly having your username changed, by the way, mr. devotion-to-private-interpretation

Devo, you keep saying that your paraphrased translations get the “Greek” across better than the more formal or even dynamic equivalent translations.

Yet, so far, the only non-English word I have seen you post anywhere is piñata. (Direct translation - a big paper animal and/or figure filled with candy, hanging from a string from above, ready to be hit by a bat by blindfolded children/people so they can release the candy inside!)

It was my whole objection to what you said on that post where I actually exegeted the Greek, and showed you what it really said. Yes, it said God saves us. But it said a lot more!

So, here is my challenge to you, Devo. The next time you say “The Greek says it,” or “The Messsage or GNT or NLT or whatever gets the Greek across better,” I NEED you to show me how the translation gets the Greek across better.

That means, put the verse in Greek. Translate it, and then exegete it.

Otherwise please shut up about Greek, which I am reasonably certain you know nothing about. Ok?

PS. If you do exegete the Greek, and I would be delighted if you did, prepare to be challenged. And don’t use Strong’s the backwards KJV concordance, or Thayer’s which is highly discredited as your sources, ok?

Like PH, I am pretty sure you are picking and choosing versions so they match your preconceived notions. Bad news, translators do this. Time to go back to the actual Greek, then we can discuss it.

 

[notuptome]

You did not quote the whole verse, only part of it...God is very willing that multitudes perish,look;
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Ro 11:32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

No God has determined who will be saved....He elects them, and calls them by name...

Election is post not pre.

Originally, but the fall into sin and death happened in Adam.

5 This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him;
2 Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created.
3 And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, and after his image; and called his name Seth:

A copy of a copy. Some transitional drift or loss of definition but still a copy of the original.

No one seeks God unless God first seeks Him and grants repentance and faith.

True but it does not teach that God does not seek all men whom He has created. God does not love the Gentile Calvinist more than other men who might be Jewish or Evangelical.

Does not the Good Shepherd leave the ninety and nine to seek even one lost sheep?

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[Angela53510]

Here's some facts concerning Erasmus:

His behavior was somewhat bizarre by Augustinian standards. He refused to keep vigils, never hesitated to eat meat on Fridays, and though ordained, chose never to function as a priest. The Roman Church had captured his body, but quite apparently his mind and heart were still unfettered.


He is known to history as one of the most prolific writers of all times.


Erasmus was a constant and verbal opponent of the many excesses of his church. He berated the papacy, the priesthood and the over indulgences of the monks. He stated that the monks would not touch money, but that they were not so scrupulous concerning wine and women. He constantly attacked clerical concubinage and the cruelty with which the Roman Catholic Church dealt with so called "heretics." He is even credited with saving a man from the Inquisition.


One of his many writings consisted of a tract entitled "Against the Barbarians" which was directed against the overt wickedness of the Roman Catholic Church.


He was a constant critic of Pope Julius and the papal monarchy. He often compared the crusade leading Pope Julius to Julius Caesar. He is quoted as saying, "How truly is Julius playing the part of Julius." He also stated, "This monarchy of the Roman pontiff is the pest of Christendom." He advised the church to "get rid of the Roman See." When a scathing satire, in which Pope Julius was portrayed as going to Hell, written in anonymity was circulated, it was fairly common knowledge that its author was Erasmus.


He was offered a bishopric in hopes that it would silence his criticism. He rejected the bribe flat.


Erasmus published five editions of the New Testament in Greek. They were brought out successively in 1516, 1519, 1522, 1527 and 1535. His first two editions did not contain I John 5:7 although the reading had been found in many non-Greek texts dating back as early as 150 A.D. Erasmus desired to include the verse but knew the conflict that would rage if he did so without at least one Greek manuscript for authority. Following the publication of his second edition, which like his first consisted of both the Greek New Testament and his own Latin translation, he said that he would include I John 5:7 in his next edition if just one Greek manuscript could be found which contained it. Opponents of the reading today erringly charge that the two manuscripts found had been specially produced just to oblige Erasmus's request, but this charge has never been validated and was not held at the time of Erasmus's work.


The Roman Catholic Church criticized his works for his refusal to use Jerome's Latin translation, a translation that he said was inaccurate. He opposed Jerome's translation in two vital areas.


He detected that the Greek text had been corrupted as early as the fourth century. He knew that Jerome's translation had been based solely on the Alexandrian manuscript, Vaticanus, written itself early in the fourth century.


He also differed with Jerome on the translation of certain passages which were vital to the claimed authority of the Roman Catholic Church.


Jerome rendered Matthew 4:17 thus: "Do penance, for the kingdom of Heaven is at hand."
Erasmus differed with: "Be penitent for the kingdom of heaven is at hand."
Erasmus was also a staunch defender of both Mark 16:9-21 and John 8:1-12. Zeal which our modern day scholars cannot seem to find.


Possibly Erasmus's greatest gift to mankind was his attitude toward the common man. In the rigidly "classed" society in which he lived, he was an indefatigable advocate of putting the Scripture in the hands of the common man. While Jerome's Latin had been translated at the bidding of the Roman hierarchy, Erasmus translated his Latin with the express purpose of putting it into the hands of the common people of his day. A practice that the Roman Catholic Church knew could be dangerous to its plan to control the masses.


Erasmus is quoted as saying, "Do you think that the Scriptures are fit only for the perfumed?" "I venture to think that anyone who reads my translation at home will profit thereby." He boldly stated that he longed to see the Bible in the hands of "the farmer, the tailor, the traveler and the Turk." Later, to the astonishment of his upper classed colleagues, he added "the masons, the prostitutes and the pimps" to that declaration.


Knowing his desire to see the Bible in the hands of God's common people, it seems not so surprising that God was to use his Greek text for the basis of the English Bible that was translated with the common man in mind, the King James Bible.


It has been said that "Erasmus laid the egg that Luther hatched." There is probably far more truth to this statement than can be casually discerned. For the reformers were armed with Erasmus's Bible, his writings and his attitude of resistance to Roman Catholic intimidation. Of Luther he said, "I favor Luther as much as I can, even if my cause is everywhere linked with his." He wrote several letters on Luther's behalf, and wholeheartedly agreed with him that salvation was entirely by grace, not works.


He refused pressure by his Roman Catholic superiors to denounce Luther as a heretic. If Erasmus had turned the power of his pen on Luther, it would undoubtedly have caused far more damage than the powerless threats of the pope and his imps were able to do. As it is, only his disagreement with Luther's doctrine of predestination ever prompted him to criticize the Reformer with pen and ink.


Erasmus's greatest point of dissension with the Roman Church was over its doctrine of salvation through works and the tenets of the church.


He taught that salvation was a personal matter between the individual and God and was by faith alone. Of the Roman system of salvation he complained, "Aristotle is so in vogue that there is scarcely time in the churches to interpret the gospel." And what was "the gospel" to which Erasmus referred? We will let him speak for himself.

And yet, when Erasmus wanted to leave out the Johannian Comma, 1 John 5:7, because it appeared only in the Vulgate, translated by Jerome, who spoke very bad Greek and a few late corrupted manuscripts, and the imprimatur of the Catholic Church, who allow books to be published with the approval of the Catholic Church, after consulting with the ptb, said, he would not stamp it with his approval unless the spurious verse was left out.

”For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.” 1 John 5:7-8 KJV

“For there are three that testify: the Spirit and the water and the blood; and these three agree..” 1 John 5:7-8 ESV

And just for contrast, let’s try the Greek: (Notice how short verse 7 is - 5 words, with 6 words in ESV and HCSB, because[FONT=&quot] [/FONT][FONT=&quot]εἰσιν[/FONT][FONT=&quot] from the verb from eimi, contains the subject, in this case, the third person plural “they.” SIX words, Five in the Greek, not 22 words like the KJV. Proving again, that the KJV has a lot of faults and issues. [/FONT]

”[FONT=&quot]ὅτι τρεῖς εἰσιν οἱ μαρτυροῦντες,[/FONT][FONT=&quot] [/FONT][FONT=&quot]8 τὸ πνεῦμα καὶ τὸ ὕδωρ καὶ τὸ αἷμα, καὶ οἱ τρεῖς εἰς τὸ ἕν εἰσιν.” 1 John 5:7-8 [/FONT]

HCSB puts it very nicely in its footnote:

“For there are three that testify:the Spirit, the water, and the blood—and these three are in agreement. 1 John 5:7-8 HCSB
Footnotes:

1. 1 John 5:7 Other mss (Vg and a few late Gk mss) read testify in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit, and these three are One. 8 And there are three who bear witness on earth:

That was Erasmus buckling down to get his NT published first, he was in a race with someone, he wanted the Imprimateur’s stamp of approval to sell more copies. Wow! Sounds kind of Healthy and Wealthy doesn’t it? All about the money/fame/whatever! Not about getting out an accurate translation.

He may not have been a dedicated RCC priest, but one wonders if he was saved at all! And certainly not saved in the Protestant sense. A man without ethics. The basis of the KJV!

 

[DevotiontoBible]

I was pointing out that you didn’t know Greek. And that the order of salvation in Greek clearly says faith, grace and salvation are intertwined and come from totally God. Not sure what you don’t get about it.

I went through the Greek, to show that it did not prove your point, except the part that God saves us. Which pretty much every Christian believes. In fact, I don’t know how a true believer could believe anything different.

Sorry you don’t “get” it. Don’t say you know what the Greek says, without proving it with the Greek.

And while I am at it, people need to stop using Strong’s and Thayer’s as sources for Greek. Strong’s is a backwards translation of the KJV. Sometimes it is right, sometimes not. Thayer’s is totally discredited, too many major errors.

Use Bauer (BDAG) for Greek, and Brown-Driver-Briggs for Hebrews. They are Lexicons, which means learning the alphabets for those languages, but such better sources. (This does not apply to DevotiontoBible, since he has used neither!)

I don't use them here because it just confuses people. I'm not here to act like a pompus Greek scholar.

 

[notuptome]

I don't use them here because it just confuses people. I'm not here to act like a pompus Greek scholar.

Not much of a biblical scholar either.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[DevotiontoBible]

Not much of a biblical scholar either.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Maybe, but what I have said about it has been correct. Calvinists order of Salvation is contrary to Hab 2:4.

 

[Angela53510]

I don't use them here because it just confuses people. I'm not here to act like a pompus Greek scholar.

Well, I do know Greek rather well. Two years of seminary Greek and a lot of self study. There are actually quite a few people who read Greek in this forum. Old Hermit, Marc, Trofimus, and others who have a basic understanding of it, too numerous to name.

So, no, I promise I won’t get confused. And people that don’t read Greek contrary to your hypothesis often read my posts exegeting the Greek and learn stuff from it. Sometimes words, sometimes messages, sometimes grammar. Even if they disagree with me.

So therefore, if you post the Greek and exegete it, then we can talk about it. If you don’t, I will continue to challenge you, because the truth is that you do NOT know Greek at all.

Can’t imagine where you get “pompous Greek scholar” from. Because all those Bible translations you use are translated by people who know Greek. Whether one person, like Eugene Peterson and the Messsage or a committee of 12, like the ESV, NIV and CSB, which my Greek professor has been on. And he is the most unpompus person I know!

Quoting Greek does not make you pompous at all, it makes you a “worker approved.”

“[FONT=&quot][/FONT]Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a worker who has no need to be ashamed, rightly handling the word of truth.” 2 Tim. 2:15
[FONT=&quot]
I am not ashamed that I have studied the Word, studied the Greek and Hebrew. It is both a calling and a gift from God. And I will not be slandered by people like you who are ignorant, and so resort to name calling like “pompous.” Again, if you had actually discussed the Greek, we could be having a decent conversation, instead of you posting from random paraphrases you have sought out to support your opinions, instead of actually following the Word of God.

And, if you do not want to engage in discussing the Greek, for whatever reason, then don’t throw out “in the Greek” anymore, and I will leave you alone. I am certain the reason you don’t quote the Greek, is because you don’t know Greek. But, I would be delighted if you proved me wrong.

Never assume that you can throw out words like “the Greek says” and no one will call you on it, because they do know Greek. Like me! Not pompous, but rightly handling the word of truth!![/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]

 

[preacher4truth]

Well, I do know Greek rather well. Two years of seminary Greek and a lot of self study. There are actually quite a few people who read Greek in this forum. Old Hermit, Marc, Trofimus, and others who have a basic understanding of it, too numerous to name.

So, no, I promise I won’t get confused. And people that don’t read Greek contrary to your hypothesis often read my posts exegeting the Greek and learn stuff from it. Sometimes words, sometimes messages, sometimes grammar. Even if they disagree with me.

So therefore, if you post the Greek and exegete it, then we can talk about it. If you don’t, I will continue to challenge you, because the truth is that you do NOT know Greek at all.

Can’t imagine where you get “pompous Greek scholar” from. Because all those Bible translations you use are translated by people who know Greek. Whether one person, like Eugene Peterson and the Messsage or a committee of 12, like the ESV, NIV and CSB, which my Greek professor has been on. And he is the most unpompus person I know!

Quoting Greek does not make you pompous at all, it makes you a “worker approved.”

“Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a worker who has no need to be ashamed, rightly handling the word of truth.” 2 Tim. 2:15

I am not ashamed that I have studied the Word, studied the Greek and Hebrew. It is both a calling and a gift from God. And I will not be slandered by people like you who are ignorant, and so resort to name calling like “pompous.” Again, if you had actually discussed the Greek, we could be having a decent conversation, instead of you posting from random paraphrases you have sought out to support your opinions, instead of actually following the Word of God.

And, if you do not want to engage in discussing the Greek, for whatever reason, then don’t throw out “in the Greek” anymore, and I will leave you alone. I am certain the reason you don’t quote the Greek, is because you don’t know Greek. But, I would be delighted if you proved me wrong.

Never assume that you can throw out words like “the Greek says” and no one will call you on it, because they do know Greek. Like me! Not pompous, but rightly handling the word of truth!!

It is apparent if a person knows something another is unwilling to study, then the studied person is "pompous" and must be ridiculed by the "spiritual."

Today ignorance is lauded as spirituality, yet, there is much in the NT and the OT about the importance and admonition to gain knowledge from God's Word, to study, and to labor in it. Of course this will be pitted with an out of context "Lean not on your own understanding!!!!" (which is a straw man) and "Peter and the apostles were ignorant and lowly fishermen!!!" (Yes, but when the Christ got done with them, they were no longer ignorant, it was noted "They had been with Jesus").