Calvinists: The Just Shall Live BEFORE Having Faith

[eternally-gratefull]

Agreed. We are either dead or alive. There is no in between. And yes, we were dead in sin. Dead, not somewhere in between. And the penalty for sin is separation from God, death and hell. We were separated from God. We were dead in sin. We were headed for hell the second this body died too.

We were all that. Totally, absolutely, 100% agreement.

BUT, Then Jesus.

-- Then Jesus came to earth as a human being, and lived his entire life sinless.

-- Then Jesus lived in the perfect will of the Father, showing us what that looks like, and giving full glory to his Father in the process.

-- Then Jesus took a punishment he did NOT deserve, as the Law showed us he could with the two sacrificial goats -- one bleeding on the altar for our sins and the other one laid hands on for our sin and then set loose. (Scapegoat.)

-- Then Jesus was separated for the one and only moment in "forever" from his Father. The full union of the Trinity was broken for one moment for our good and God's glory.

-- Then Jesus died the horrible death we all deserved.

-- Then he went to hell and released the ones his Father had given him.

-- Then, of all things, he rose again, to show the Father accepted his offer in our stead.

And always, always, always to show what John 3 is!

Then Jesus. He changed everything! We were dead in sin. He gave us new life, second birth, regeneration. He justified us! We did not give us that. He did!

So are you a universalist? The because Jesus did all those things, you are automatically given new birth and justified?

That is not what I see. I see God offering salvation to all people. But not forcing his salvation on anyone, thus he gives it only to those who desire it.

I see everything which you said, and agree, up to the point of your last sentence

Then Jesus. He changed everything! We were dead in sin. He gave us new life, second birth, regeneration. He justified us! We did not give us that. He did!

Here is what I think, Yes, he changed everything, We were dead in sin, with no hope. no way to get outselves out of that debt we owe God (death) then Jesus died, and took that debt for us, And since he did this, because he loved the whole world. And died for it, WHOEVER BELIEVES in him has past from death to life (will never perish, but has eternal life = new birth)

eternal life is new birth, He just added the word eternal to it to show us this new life is eternal, it will never be lost. it is what Jesus meant when he said you must be born again, and although he died for the world he loved, he only gives it to those who believe.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Ha! And you thought Devo was hard to understand.

Good luck with that one.

You and I believe roughly the same things. We just see it differently. Derrick is on Jupiter comparatively. Left field was miles ago.

I agree, devo is way out there, Then again he thinks baptism of the spirit is a command, not a gift.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

So when did you ask God to forgive you of your sins, and give you eternal life? And why did you think you even needed to be forgiven?

I am confused (and maybe worried) because all I hear you say you went from unbelief in who Jesus was to belief, No one is saved based solely on this. Many people believe Jesus is who he says he is, yet have never met God.

If sin is unbelief, and I could only shriek over and over: i m so sorry I didn't know oh god I'm so sorry, then wouldn't you think that is asking to be forgiven for my unbelief...?

You say to go from unbelief in who Jesus is to belief in him is not enough to be saved and it shocks me so bad that I don't know what to say. I'm going to have to think and see if I can form any words. As it is, I wonder at how what I consider the only important thing is what you consider not enough for a man to be saved.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

That is why the GW gets the Greek across better than other translations there. It isnt God causing people or willing them to be disobedient they cause themselves to be disobedient.

that is not even what it says, in either interpretation. The words did not day God caused them to be disobedient, or they caused themselves to be disobedient, it said God put them under disobedience (Ie, he placed them in Adam)

 

[DevotiontoBible]

I agree, devo is way out there, Then again he thinks baptism of the spirit is a command, not a gift.

You are putting words in my mouth. I never said that.

 

[Depleted]

Well-maybe that is easy to you. But I would rather like to stick to what I see the word says, And this is not adequate. This is just an opinion. I do not wish to base my eternal life based on opinions.


To me the Bible saysdthere is a process. Things Ike redemption, Justification, Regeneration, Salvation. All all these things fit together to make a person a child of God.

Just saying God elected us and thats it does nto explain the process.




Yep. But it is not Gods repentance, it is yours. You must repent, or you will remain in your sin.

See? Again, we agree. The only thing different is in which order all that happens.

As for repentance being ours? Right again, but who gave us that sudden desire? It's not normal for us. Before the Lord, we felt guilty. We might even do something about it, although not often. And what we usually did about it was to justify why we did it.

To this day, many people who claim they're Christians think an apology is repent. It's not necessarily. It's not often. What we're usually sorry about is getting caught or hurting someone we care about. That turns us all right. It turns us into being sneakier. It turns us into walking on egg shelves while we're doing the exact same thing, so the other person doesn't get hurt, because they don't notice we haven't changed.

God changed us. He really changed us. Somewhere along the line, we start realizing it IS our fault. We DID do something abhorrent to the Lord. We DID do something hurtful to another person. We DID mean to do that, and now we are sorry enough to ask his help to change us so we don't hurt him again. And we mean that. We want the change.

That's just weird. That is NOT human nature. That is not what our dead man ever did.

That is supernatural!

 

[eternally-gratefull]

God's righteousness is through the faith of Christ. This righteousness is imputed to the believer.

Romans 3
21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

it does not say OF CHRIST, And it says it is given to all those who believe, not all those who have Christ's faith.

The word faith is feminine, the words Jesus Christ is masculine thus it is not the faith in christ, it is the faith (feminine) the writer purposefully used a different form to denote that it is not christs faith. it is the faiht of all who believe.

 

[Depleted]

What a childish response...

Which of his posts haven't been?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

If sin is unbelief, and I could only shriek over and over: i m so sorry I didn't know oh god I'm so sorry, then wouldn't you think that is asking to be forgiven for my unbelief...?

You say to go from unbelief in who Jesus is to belief in him is not enough to be saved and it shocks me so bad that I don't know what to say. I'm going to have to think and see if I can form any words. As it is, I wonder at how what I consider the only important thing is what you consider not enough for a man to be saved.

The catholics believe in jesus, are they saved
many jews believed in jesus, yet many added works of the law to the gospel. were they saved even though they added works, and God said they should be damned?
The muslims believe in Jesus, Are they saved?
SOme believe in jesus yet want nothign to do with him, or his church, are they saved?

Again, Your continue to not understand what I think about belief, that one can believe something and not trust it.

I think we have to get that straightened out first.

ps. I see no place in your post where you called out to God to be saved. did you? and if you did, why did you even think you needed to be saved?

 

[Depleted]

Point it out. But you can't because you're just making a baseless drive-by personal attack.

[h=1]Hebrews 11English Standard Version (ESV)[/h][h=3]By Faith[/h][FONT=&quot]11 Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen. 2 For by it the people of old received their commendation. 3 By faith we understand that the universe was created by the word of God, so that what is seen was not made out of things that are visible.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]4 By faith Abel offered to God a more acceptable sacrifice than Cain, through which he was commended as righteous, God commending him by accepting his gifts. And through his faith, though he died, he still speaks. 5 By faith Enoch was taken up so that he should not see death, and he was not found, because God had taken him. Now before he was taken he was commended as having pleased God. 6 And without faith it is impossible to please him, for whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him. 7 By faith Noah, being warned by God concerning events as yet unseen, in reverent fear constructed an ark for the saving of his household. By this he condemned the world and became an heir of the righteousness that comes by faith.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]8 By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to a place that he was to receive as an inheritance. And he went out, not knowing where he was going. 9 By faith he went to live in the land of promise, as in a foreign land, living in tents with Isaac and Jacob, heirs with him of the same promise. 10 For he was looking forward to the city that has foundations, whose designer and builder is God. 11 By faith Sarah herself received power to conceive, even when she was past the age, since she considered him faithful who had promised. 12 Therefore from one man, and him as good as dead, were born descendants as many as the stars of heaven and as many as the innumerable grains of sand by the seashore.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]13 These all died in faith, not having received the things promised, but having seen them and greeted them from afar, and having acknowledged that they were strangers and exiles on the earth. 14 For people who speak thus make it clear that they are seeking a homeland. 15 If they had been thinking of that land from which they had gone out, they would have had opportunity to return. 16 But as it is, they desire a better country, that is, a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for he has prepared for them a city.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]17 By faith Abraham, when he was tested, offered up Isaac, and he who had received the promises was in the act of offering up his only son, 18 of whom it was said, “Through Isaac shall your offspring be named.” 19 He considered that God was able even to raise him from the dead, from which, figuratively speaking, he did receive him back. 20 By faith Isaac invoked future blessings on Jacob and Esau. 21 By faith Jacob, when dying, blessed each of the sons of Joseph, bowing in worship over the head of his staff. 22 By faith Joseph, at the end of his life, made mention of the exodus of the Israelites and gave directions concerning his bones.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]23 By faith Moses, when he was born, was hidden for three months by his parents, because they saw that the child was beautiful, and they were not afraid of the king's edict. 24 By faith Moses, when he was grown up, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh's daughter, 25 choosing rather to be mistreated with the people of God than to enjoy the fleeting pleasures of sin. 26 He considered the reproach of Christ greater wealth than the treasures of Egypt, for he was looking to the reward. 27 By faith he left Egypt, not being afraid of the anger of the king, for he endured as seeing him who is invisible. 28 By faith he kept the Passover and sprinkled the blood, so that the Destroyer of the firstborn might not touch them.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]29 By faith the people crossed the Red Sea as on dry land, but the Egyptians, when they attempted to do the same, were drowned. 30 By faith the walls of Jericho fell down after they had been encircled for seven days. 31 By faith Rahab the prostitute did not perish with those who were disobedient, because she had given a friendly welcome to the spies.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]32 And what more shall I say? For time would fail me to tell of Gideon, Barak, Samson, Jephthah, of David and Samuel and the prophets— 33 who through faith conquered kingdoms, enforced justice, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions, 34 quenched the power of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, were made strong out of weakness, became mighty in war, put foreign armies to flight.35 Women received back their dead by resurrection. Some were tortured, refusing to accept release, so that they might rise again to a better life. 36 Others suffered mocking and flogging, and even chains and imprisonment. 37 They were stoned, they were sawn in two,[a] they were killed with the sword. They went about in skins of sheep and goats, destitute, afflicted, mistreated— 38 of whom the world was not worthy—wandering about in deserts and mountains, and in dens and caves of the earth.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]39 And all these, though commended through their faith, did not receive what was promised, 40 since God had provided something better for us, that apart from us they should not be made perfect.[/FONT]

 

[SovereignGrace]

See? Again, we agree. The only thing different is in which order all that happens.

As for repentance being ours? Right again, but who gave us that sudden desire? It's not normal for us. Before the Lord, we felt guilty. We might even do something about it, although not often. And what we usually did about it was to justify why we did it.

To this day, many people who claim they're Christians think an apology is repent. It's not necessarily. It's not often. What we're usually sorry about is getting caught or hurting someone we care about. That turns us all right. It turns us into being sneakier. It turns us into walking on egg shelves while we're doing the exact same thing, so the other person doesn't get hurt, because they don't notice we haven't changed.

God changed us. He really changed us. Somewhere along the line, we start realizing it IS ourk fault. We DID do something abhorrent to the Lord. We DID do something hurtful to another person. We DID mean to do that, and now we are sorry enough to ask his help to change us so we don't hurt him again. And we mean that. We want the change.

That's just weird. That is NOT human nature. That is not what our dead man ever did.

That is supernatural!

Who in the name of Matthew, Mark, Luke, & John walks on egg shelves?

 

[DevotiontoBible]

that is not even what it says, in either interpretation. The words did not day God caused them to be disobedient, or they caused themselves to be disobedient, it said God put them under disobedience (Ie, he placed them in Adam)

Agree, the Calvinists here say Ro 11:32 says God causes disobedience but not any translation does. However, you are mistaken in that the GW does show it is due to people's own disobedience.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

You are putting words in my mouth. I never said that.

What church do you go to again?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Agree, the Calvinists here say Ro 11:32 says God causes disobedience but not any translation does. However, you are mistaken in that the GW does show it is due to people's own disobedience.

can you quote a calvanist who says this?

 

[Depleted]

Apparently, we're all lost and deceived and only he is capable and spiritual enough to show us the way, his way of course, but not God's.

If only!

Seriously, even if it was that, I'd be more satisfied by him. But he isn't showing a way to God. He's not even showing his way.

He's babbling, like a two-year-old in full temper-tantrum mode.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Hebrews 11English Standard Version (ESV)

By Faith

11 Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen. 2 For by it the people of old received their commendation. 3 By faith we understand that the universe was created by the word of God, so that what is seen was not made out of things that are visible.
4 By faith Abel offered to God a more acceptable sacrifice than Cain, through which he was commended as righteous, God commending him by accepting his gifts. And through his faith, though he died, he still speaks. 5 By faith Enoch was taken up so that he should not see death, and he was not found, because God had taken him. Now before he was taken he was commended as having pleased God. 6 And without faith it is impossible to please him, for whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him. 7 By faith Noah, being warned by God concerning events as yet unseen, in reverent fear constructed an ark for the saving of his household. By this he condemned the world and became an heir of the righteousness that comes by faith.
8 By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to a place that he was to receive as an inheritance. And he went out, not knowing where he was going. 9 By faith he went to live in the land of promise, as in a foreign land, living in tents with Isaac and Jacob, heirs with him of the same promise. 10 For he was looking forward to the city that has foundations, whose designer and builder is God. 11 By faith Sarah herself received power to conceive, even when she was past the age, since she considered him faithful who had promised. 12 Therefore from one man, and him as good as dead, were born descendants as many as the stars of heaven and as many as the innumerable grains of sand by the seashore.
13 These all died in faith, not having received the things promised, but having seen them and greeted them from afar, and having acknowledged that they were strangers and exiles on the earth. 14 For people who speak thus make it clear that they are seeking a homeland. 15 If they had been thinking of that land from which they had gone out, they would have had opportunity to return. 16 But as it is, they desire a better country, that is, a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for he has prepared for them a city.
17 By faith Abraham, when he was tested, offered up Isaac, and he who had received the promises was in the act of offering up his only son, 18 of whom it was said, “Through Isaac shall your offspring be named.” 19 He considered that God was able even to raise him from the dead, from which, figuratively speaking, he did receive him back. 20 By faith Isaac invoked future blessings on Jacob and Esau. 21 By faith Jacob, when dying, blessed each of the sons of Joseph, bowing in worship over the head of his staff. 22 By faith Joseph, at the end of his life, made mention of the exodus of the Israelites and gave directions concerning his bones.
23 By faith Moses, when he was born, was hidden for three months by his parents, because they saw that the child was beautiful, and they were not afraid of the king's edict. 24 By faith Moses, when he was grown up, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh's daughter, 25 choosing rather to be mistreated with the people of God than to enjoy the fleeting pleasures of sin. 26 He considered the reproach of Christ greater wealth than the treasures of Egypt, for he was looking to the reward. 27 By faith he left Egypt, not being afraid of the anger of the king, for he endured as seeing him who is invisible. 28 By faith he kept the Passover and sprinkled the blood, so that the Destroyer of the firstborn might not touch them.
29 By faith the people crossed the Red Sea as on dry land, but the Egyptians, when they attempted to do the same, were drowned. 30 By faith the walls of Jericho fell down after they had been encircled for seven days. 31 By faith Rahab the prostitute did not perish with those who were disobedient, because she had given a friendly welcome to the spies.
32 And what more shall I say? For time would fail me to tell of Gideon, Barak, Samson, Jephthah, of David and Samuel and the prophets— 33 who through faith conquered kingdoms, enforced justice, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions, 34 quenched the power of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, were made strong out of weakness, became mighty in war, put foreign armies to flight.35 Women received back their dead by resurrection. Some were tortured, refusing to accept release, so that they might rise again to a better life. 36 Others suffered mocking and flogging, and even chains and imprisonment. 37 They were stoned, they were sawn in two,[a] they were killed with the sword. They went about in skins of sheep and goats, destitute, afflicted, mistreated— 38 of whom the world was not worthy—wandering about in deserts and mountains, and in dens and caves of the earth.
39 And all these, though commended through their faith, did not receive what was promised, 40 since God had provided something better for us, that apart from us they should not be made perfect.

I pointed out this chapter earlier. To have faith in God means one is justified in the sight of God. One can not be justified, declared righteous in His sight, and be devoid of His Spirit. Yet Devo(whip it good....sorry...flashback to my childhood) avers this very ideology.

Very disturbing belief he has.

 

[blue_ladybug]

Someone whose fingers move faster than their brain can think? lol

Who in the name of Matthew, Mark, Luke, & John walks on egg shelves?

 

[DevotiontoBible]

[h=1]Hebrews 11English Standard Version (ESV)[/h][h=3]By Faith[/h][FONT=&quot]11 Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen. 2 For by it the people of old received their commendation. 3 By faith we understand that the universe was created by the word of God, so that what is seen was not made out of things that are visible.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]4 By faith Abel offered to God a more acceptable sacrifice than Cain, through which he was commended as righteous, God commending him by accepting his gifts. And through his faith, though he died, he still speaks. 5 By faith Enoch was taken up so that he should not see death, and he was not found, because God had taken him. Now before he was taken he was commended as having pleased God. 6 And without faith it is impossible to please him, for whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him. 7 By faith Noah, being warned by God concerning events as yet unseen, in reverent fear constructed an ark for the saving of his household. By this he condemned the world and became an heir of the righteousness that comes by faith.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]8 By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to a place that he was to receive as an inheritance. And he went out, not knowing where he was going. 9 By faith he went to live in the land of promise, as in a foreign land, living in tents with Isaac and Jacob, heirs with him of the same promise. 10 For he was looking forward to the city that has foundations, whose designer and builder is God. 11 By faith Sarah herself received power to conceive, even when she was past the age, since she considered him faithful who had promised. 12 Therefore from one man, and him as good as dead, were born descendants as many as the stars of heaven and as many as the innumerable grains of sand by the seashore.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]13 These all died in faith, not having received the things promised, but having seen them and greeted them from afar, and having acknowledged that they were strangers and exiles on the earth. 14 For people who speak thus make it clear that they are seeking a homeland. 15 If they had been thinking of that land from which they had gone out, they would have had opportunity to return. 16 But as it is, they desire a better country, that is, a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for he has prepared for them a city.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]17 By faith Abraham, when he was tested, offered up Isaac, and he who had received the promises was in the act of offering up his only son, 18 of whom it was said, “Through Isaac shall your offspring be named.” 19 He considered that God was able even to raise him from the dead, from which, figuratively speaking, he did receive him back. 20 By faith Isaac invoked future blessings on Jacob and Esau. 21 By faith Jacob, when dying, blessed each of the sons of Joseph, bowing in worship over the head of his staff. 22 By faith Joseph, at the end of his life, made mention of the exodus of the Israelites and gave directions concerning his bones.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]23 By faith Moses, when he was born, was hidden for three months by his parents, because they saw that the child was beautiful, and they were not afraid of the king's edict. 24 By faith Moses, when he was grown up, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh's daughter, 25 choosing rather to be mistreated with the people of God than to enjoy the fleeting pleasures of sin. 26 He considered the reproach of Christ greater wealth than the treasures of Egypt, for he was looking to the reward. 27 By faith he left Egypt, not being afraid of the anger of the king, for he endured as seeing him who is invisible. 28 By faith he kept the Passover and sprinkled the blood, so that the Destroyer of the firstborn might not touch them.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]29 By faith the people crossed the Red Sea as on dry land, but the Egyptians, when they attempted to do the same, were drowned. 30 By faith the walls of Jericho fell down after they had been encircled for seven days. 31 By faith Rahab the prostitute did not perish with those who were disobedient, because she had given a friendly welcome to the spies.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]32 And what more shall I say? For time would fail me to tell of Gideon, Barak, Samson, Jephthah, of David and Samuel and the prophets— 33 who through faith conquered kingdoms, enforced justice, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions, 34 quenched the power of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, were made strong out of weakness, became mighty in war, put foreign armies to flight.35 Women received back their dead by resurrection. Some were tortured, refusing to accept release, so that they might rise again to a better life. 36 Others suffered mocking and flogging, and even chains and imprisonment. 37 They were stoned, they were sawn in two,[a] they were killed with the sword. They went about in skins of sheep and goats, destitute, afflicted, mistreated— 38 of whom the world was not worthy—wandering about in deserts and mountains, and in dens and caves of the earth.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]39 And all these, though commended through their faith, did not receive what was promised, 40 since God had provided something better for us, that apart from us they should not be made perfect.[/FONT]

...and...what's your point with posting a quote of a chapter from the Bible?

 

[SovereignGrace]

...and...what's your point with posting a quote of a chapter from the Bible?

The OT saints had faith and faith is a fruit of the Spirit.[Galatians 5:22]

One can not possess the fruit of the Spirit w/o also possessing the Spirit.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

See? Again, we agree. The only thing different is in which order all that happens.

As for repentance being ours? Right again, but who gave us that sudden desire? It's not normal for us. Before the Lord, we felt guilty. We might even do something about it, although not often. And what we usually did about it was to justify why we did it.

To this day, many people who claim they're Christians think an apology is repent. It's not necessarily. It's not often. What we're usually sorry about is getting caught or hurting someone we care about. That turns us all right. It turns us into being sneakier. It turns us into walking on egg shelves while we're doing the exact same thing, so the other person doesn't get hurt, because they don't notice we haven't changed.

God changed us. He really changed us. Somewhere along the line, we start realizing it IS our fault. We DID do something abhorrent to the Lord. We DID do something hurtful to another person. We DID mean to do that, and now we are sorry enough to ask his help to change us so we don't hurt him again. And we mean that. We want the change.

That's just weird. That is NOT human nature. That is not what our dead man ever did.

That is supernatural!

Repent does not mean change a persons life, , it means to change your view.

Going from unbelief to belief is repenting,

going from thinking i am not a sinner to understanding I am a sinner is repenting

Going from thinking I am ok, to I am in danger is repenting

Going from thinking there is no heaven, to there is a heaven is repenting

Going from thinking I do not need saved, to I need saved is repenting

going from thinking I can save myself, to thinking I must be saved by God is repenting

And your right, it is God who helps us understand these things, (the HS will convict the world of sin righteousness and judgment) and we also have his word and his nature to help us know these things,

this is what causes is to turn to God in faith, because we have realised, we are totally hopeless and we have no hope but him, thats what caused the tax collector to get on his knees.

a persons life can only be changed AFTER he is saved. we do not change our life before.