Calvinists: The Just Shall Live BEFORE Having Faith

[BillG]

For starters, I didn't report anyone or have any intention to do so. I don't consider asinine a cuss word and did not imply that it was in anyone's posts. Show me where I said I reported someone or considered asinine a cuss word so I can retract it. It's not going to happen.

Asinine is not a swear word, the following is a swear word

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

John Calvin was a RCC priest who was taught extreme doctrines by another RCC priest named Jerome. Jerome made this stuff up not Calvin. It should be called Jeromeism. John Calvin ran a mini-papal state in Geneva Switzerland.

John Calvin quote: "The fall of Adam and Eve in all it's consequences was ordained by the admirable counsel of God."

What John Calvin is clearly saying is that God is the author of sin.

Oh good grief...

 

[John146]

You are not admitting some of Gods attributes into your thinking. He knows the end of every man from the beginning. He knows every man even before the man is born.

Sounds great, can you give Scripture other than "Declaring the end from the beginning" because all that's stating is God knew from the beginning how it's all going to turn out. He will be ruling and reigning on the throne forever and ever in the new heaven and earth. People often misinterpret this verse.

 

[John146]

Oh good grief...

You can have that God if you want him. I'm not interested.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Oh good grief...

He doesn't grasp God ordains via primary and secondary causes.

His posts are like Devo's...

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

Sounds great, can you give Scripture other than "Declaring the end from the beginning" because all that's stating is God knew from the beginning how it's all going to turn out. He will be ruling and reigning on the throne forever and ever in the new heaven and earth. People often misinterpret this verse.

What I mean is, sometimes something God has said is confusing to me. The confusion usually leaves if I take the statement and consider it beside His attributes, one by one.

So when I read that God chose me from the beginning, I have to consider He has known everything completely and fully for all time. Because He did is why He can make a statement like that that seems so outrageous to my human mind.

 

[BillG]

Oops pressed reply to early.

Probably a good thing.
Mind you I'm reminded of something that one should not really laugh at but can't help it.

When my daughter went for her first day at preschool, parents were invited to go.
So lots of parents and the kids were sat in the middle of the room.

The leader stood up and started talking.
She explained to the kids that they were to be nice to each other and not rude.

So my daughter held to her hand and the leader said "Hello Katie what do you want to say?

Katie responds "Miss my mum and dad say we are not to call each other stupid it not a nice word to say to someone"

Then a boy held up his hand.

Yes says the leader what do you want to say"

The boy responds with

"Yes miss we are not allowed to say s### or f### or b###### either"

You could tell who the kids parents were, cause they were not trying to stop themselves laughing.

True story.

 

[followjesus]

The Greek is the same in this verse as Ro 11:32 and it doesn't mean that it is Scripture's will that the world be sinful just like in Ro 11:32 is not saying it's God's will for people to disobey Him:

But Scripture states that the whole world is controlled by the power of sin. Therefore, a promise based on faith in Jesus Christ could be given to those who believe.
Galatians 3:22 GW
https://bible.com/bible/70/gal.3.22.GW

The Greek is the same in this verse as Ro 11:32 and it doesn't mean that it is Scripture's will that the world be sinful just like in Ro 11:32 is not saying it's God's will for people to disobey Him:"


amen. the law came because of transgression, not the other way around. the Law of moses, is Gods response to mankind becoming sinners, and thus condemned under the law. so that all the world is held and judged Guilty before Gods perfect standard. Satans will, is that men disobey God and die, Gods will is that we obey Him and Live.

the issue is not fixed by God saying " well, nevermind no one needs to obey me now because you are all sinners and could never be right"

the solution, is that God says " satan Lied to you, my word is not death, but life. I Love you anyways even though you broke my Law, and this is How much I Love you....Now repent of sin and turn to God "

Jesus doesnt exclude or excuse us from obeyoing the Lord, he is teaching us that it is eternal Life to obey the Lord. and was from the beginning.

 

[Depleted]

All I want you to do is admit you understand that the word belief has many meanings, which may include trust. where as the word faith ALWAYS has with it the idea of trust.

Which I have been saying for awhile now. Yet for some reason, You keep saying you do not understand.

How would you feel if you kept telling someone the same thing over again, and they kept saying you did not say it, said it in a way which is not what you said to begin with?

I am a dunce.
I am a dunce.
I am a dunce.
I am a dune.
I am a dunce.

Did you stop believing me because I momentarily called myself a dune, instead of a dunce once?

Same thing with you. Most of the time, you do acknowledge faith and trust are the same (in the context of this discussion, not in context of full meaning of both words.) Once or twice, you said they weren't. I'm leaning toward you really do think faith and trust are the same, but had a brain fart once or twice. I am not discrediting you. I'm not putting you down. And, I have put you down before, but Stunned has not. Nor has she discredited you. BUT honestly, look back.

Because it really may have been an "I am a dune" moment for you, but doesn't your mind instantly go for "Is Lynn a dune? Ah! Could be right. She is big and dusty like a dune, so maybe she considers herself both a dunce and a dune." And in that moment in time, you locked in "Lynn is a dune" in ways never intended by me.

And I suspect that's exactly what happened between you and Stunned, but you won't believe it until you go back and find your "I am a dune" moment. Because that moment is sealed in two minds now -- Stunned's and mine.

If that moment was a brain fart, not a problem. Everyone has them. BUT if you meant it, you'll need to explain it fuller now, because we're scratching our heads over it two days later.

 

[BillG]

Just so you know, you don't have to understand Calvinism at all for that. What you just gave fits into the beliefs of all true Christians - Cal or no-Cal.

Sooo, yupper. You got it.

And, just so you know, I suspect you're pre-Cal. You're leaning toward Calvinism even before understanding what in the world that means. Not saying that from what you wrote here, because already explained what you wrote here. Just a general feeling I have from reading your many posts. Weird thing happens when we want to understand the whole of the Bible. "Systematic Theology" starts making sense, and no one systematizes quite like Calvinists. We come close to going OCD on it. lol

BTW, I also don't think you're dumb. I consider you smarter-than-me.

Wow people read my posts

Thanks for your words.
What's pre-Cal?

 

[SovereignGrace]

Wow people read my posts

Thanks for your words.
What's pre-Cal?

Pre-Cal are those who are pre-grasping biblical truths.

Just kidding my Brother.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Calvinism is a philosophy and what I stated is correct because Calvinists believe regeneration precedes faith in the order of salvation.

In other words you are attacking a group of people.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

Wow people read my posts

Thanks for your words.
What's pre-Cal?

I don't read everyone's posts but then there are some people that I not only read all their posts but I even actively seek them out. You're one of them.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

A couple of weeks ago, I did a little snooping about who were hearing the apostles in their own language. Never did learn what languages those people were, but learned where they were from. The most northern spot was Crimea. That same bit of land Putin was trying to steal from the Ukraine a few years ago. The most eastern spot was India. Western? West of Egypt! (I think Jerusalem might have already been the most southern spot, since the nations named were never more-south.) Add to that, Judea was part of the Roman Empire by then, so that means the religious influences also had some Roman and Greek in there.

Sure. Most believed in gods, but not GOD! Yahweh wasn't even a big hit in Egypt or Syria. (Syria was also present in that group. Back then it was called Mesopotamia.) You cannot say they all knew about Yahweh! Jerusalem was an important trade center at the time. They hosted the known world. Given the list included people from that whole very large area (most of the Mediterranean Sea, clear up to close to Russia, and all the way over to India), nope. They weren't all Jews. Most of them weren't, or Luke wouldn't have listed ten non-Jewish nations.

My mind is still spinning on how large an area those nations encompassed, so hope you don't mind if I copy-paste what I learned of who they were and where they were from. Truly amazing because that whole area is besiege by such turmoil 2000 years later still!

Parthians -- Between the Tigris and India. They were the trade routes between the Grecco-Roman Empire and Asia. (Iran and Iraq today.)

Medes -- The real Aryans. S.W. and S. of the Caspian, N.W. and N. of Persia, W. of Parthia and the salt desert of Iram, E. of Armenia and Assyria. (Iran today.)

Elamite -- A district southeast of Babylon, on Persian Gulf. (Iran today.)

Mesopotamia -- Syria. Situated within the Tigris–Euphrates river system, in modern days roughly corresponding to most of Iraq plus Kuwait, the eastern parts of Syria, Southeastern Turkey, and regions along the Turkish–Syrian and Iran–Iraq borders.

Judea -- Home turf, so I expected them to be there that day.

Cappadocia -- An extensive province in eastern Asia Minor, bounded by the Taurus mountains on the South, the Anti-Taurus and the Euphrates on the East, and, less definitely, by Pontus and Galatia on the North and West. Highest mountain, Argaeus, over 13,000 ft. above sea-level; chief rivers, the Pyramus now Jihan, Sarus now Sihon, and Halys now the Kuzul; most important cities, Caesarea Mazaca, Comana, Miletene now Malatia, and Tyana now Bor. At Malatia the country unrolls itself as a fertile plain; elsewhere the province is for the most part composed of billowy and rather barren uplands, and bleak mountain peaks and pastures. (Now Turkey and beyond.)

Pontus -- North of Cappadocia. Actually, it sounds like it's sometimes considered a part of Cappadocia. The area was named after the river, Pontus River. Which then became the Euxine River. Which we now know today as Kerch Straits. That's toward the top of the Black Sea, (which used to be called The Euxine Sea.) It's that little body of water separating Crimea from the rest of the Ukraine. And, a few years ago, Russia tried to steal it back, because it's still strategic for its ability to ship cargo all around the Black Sea. I'm not sure of the historical era, but these people were, at one time, known for something else. The Amazon women were from Pontus. (Ukraine today.)

Asia -- Not the continent we think of today, but definitely part of that continent. At the time the NT was being written, Asia was the most affluent providence of the Roman Empire. The largest cities sound familiar -- Adramyttium, Assos, Cnidus, Ephesus, Laodicea, Miletus, Pergamos, Philadelphia, Sardis, Smyrna, Thyatira, and Troas. (The boundaries changed often, but much of it is Turkey today.)

Phrygia -- Now Western Turkey

Pamphylia -- A small region in the southern part of Turkey.

Egypt -- Which is the same Egypt, but now part of the Roman Empire.

I believe the people who heard those languages who believed in Judaism, and returned to their homeland or celebrate Pentecost.

They knew who god was, it was not something new to them, what was new to them was the gospel of jesus, as there was a chance any ot them did nto even know about jesus, thats why when the word was given they were so quick to have faith, because they understood the basics,

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I am a dunce.
I am a dunce.
I am a dunce.
I am a dune.
I am a dunce.

Did you stop believing me because I momentarily called myself a dune, instead of a dunce once?

Same thing with you. Most of the time, you do acknowledge faith and trust are the same (in the context of this discussion, not in context of full meaning of both words.) Once or twice, you said they weren't. I'm leaning toward you really do think faith and trust are the same, but had a brain fart once or twice. I am not discrediting you. I'm not putting you down. And, I have put you down before, but Stunned has not. Nor has she discredited you. BUT honestly, look back.

Because it really may have been an "I am a dune" moment for you, but doesn't your mind instantly go for "Is Lynn a dune? Ah! Could be right. She is big and dusty like a dune, so maybe she considers herself both a dunce and a dune." And in that moment in time, you locked in "Lynn is a dune" in ways never intended by me.

And I suspect that's exactly what happened between you and Stunned, but you won't believe it until you go back and find your "I am a dune" moment. Because that moment is sealed in two minds now -- Stunned's and mine.

If that moment was a brain fart, not a problem. Everyone has them. BUT if you meant it, you'll need to explain it fuller now, because we're scratching our heads over it two days later.

Can you explain what I think the word belief means? Through the whole perspective of all possible interpretations?

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

I believe the people who heard those languages who believed in Judaism, and returned to their homeland or celebrate Pentecost.

They knew who god was, it was not something new to them, what was new to them was the gospel of jesus, as there was a chance any ot them did nto even know about jesus, thats why when the word was given they were so quick to have faith, because they understood the basics,

I think her poi t was there were people there who didn't know the Torah at all. You know, gentiles. It was the fulfillment of: and I have other sheep, not of this sheepfold...

 

[Depleted]

I can see this, Yes sis

It still was not one minute you did not even know about God or that you were a sinner who deserved condemnation, to all of a sudden Knowing God, and you were a sinner, and all of a sudden, the HS opened your eyes and you had faith at the very same SECOND.

I personally believe the HS had been working on you for longer than just a few days, what caused you to look at the word. how long had you been thinking of looking at the word?

I think we will see (when we get to heaven) there was many thing going on in our lives sometimes for months or years where God was working on our heart. and at the right time and the right place (when he knew we were ready) all those things came together and you became the tax collector who fell on your knees.

Not saying this to argue with you, or say your wrong, this is just what I have witnessed in so many people. and what I believe.

You're right again. No one goes from don't believe God to dink! (BTW, dink is the sound of a light switch, so it references the Lord bringing on his light.)

In every order of salvation, (except the Catholics again), we have a word for that. It's called "Calling." God calls. God calls! Sometimes he calls and it takes mere moments before he saves us. Sometimes he calls and we take years to get to that point we are beside ourselves and have no other choice. Sometimes he calls when we're hiding in a thrusher to avoid a war tearing up our nation. Sometimes he calls, and we're minding our own business taking care of some sheep. (Abraham. Otherwise we'd get in another argument as to when David was saved. lol) Sometimes we're hanging on a cross for stealing, and Jesus is on the next cross. He calls and we come in a wide assortment of ways, and yet, you and I and Stunned can agree on one thing -- he calls.

I wasn't the brilliant 15 year old, just out of the blue, asking God to make him as real to me as the man on the stage. Really. Not. Brilliant! That was God calling. Something like tugging on our God radar to get us to notice there just might be a god out there somewhere. Sort of like dusting off the shelf before putting something important on the shelf. God prepares us for this moment. In ways we will never see. (Predestination. Never saw that since it happened before there was a universe.) and in ways we do see. (Sanctification. Something else we all agree comes later in the order.)

I said this a while ago on this thread. I do not think Order of Salvation tells us anything, one way or another, about if we are saved. God either saves us or doesn't, and understanding how isn't a prerequisite or a postrequisite of his salvation. The only thing we're arguing is the how he did that.

And the only reason I'm still arguing the how after 731 posts of lots-of-people-disagreeing is because I absolutely love the Lord does it all for us, even when we did not want him to do it for us, knowing, since before time, that we'd love him for doing it anyway. lol

Something else we agree on, "We love him for it."

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

I believe the people who heard those languages who believed in Judaism, and returned to their homeland or celebrate Pentecost.

They knew who god was, it was not something new to them, what was new to them was the gospel of jesus, as there was a chance any ot them did nto even know about jesus, thats why when the word was given they were so quick to have faith, because they understood the basics,

I think you are just more like a...Lee Stroebel than a Jennie or a Lynn.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I think her poi t was there were people there who didn't know the Torah at all. You know, gentiles. It was the fulfillment of: and I have other sheep, not of this sheepfold...

Unless I misunderstood She spoke of the people at Pentecost. I am not sure there were any gentiles there. The jews had people in all areas, I am sure many people at least knew what the Torah was, and what God was.why would a gentile who did not practice the jewish faith come to Jerusalem to celebrate Pentecost?

And again, we still have romans 1 who states all people know who god is, but that they hide the truth in their hearts.

hiding the truth and not knowing it I would say are two different things

 

[Depleted]

Are we now discussing it again? I don't want you to scream at me that I insist on engaging in conversation with you on the matter after you have have said you do not want to have further conversation on the matter because you feel I am mocking and dishonest. I am fine either way but I am confused as to what you want regarding it.

EG, dang!

Between you and me, isn't Stunned incredibly patient and kind. How did we two bull-headed people get someone like her to love us?