Not By Works

[loveme1]

Revelation 2

1Unto the angel of the church of Ephesus write; These things saith he that holdeth the seven stars in his right hand, who walketh in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks;
2I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars: 3And hast borne, and hast patience, and for my name's sake hast laboured, and hast not fainted. 4Nevertheless I have somewhatagainst thee, because thou hast left thy first love. 5Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent. 6But this thou hast, that thou hatest the deeds of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate. 7He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.




The Lord Teaches Law and Works... the ongoing dispute and a million likes and amen’s will not override what is written.

Ephesians 2




2 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved
6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.
18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit

Verse 8 is as True as verse 10... and so on...

The Law of Faith is to do good works because you are saved... yet the Lord guides and chastes us unto perfection to be worthy to walk in white with Him..

 

[LightLoveHope]

i'll just point out the fourth paragraph. that's it. if I commented on the blasphemy , i'd get banned.

This idea of yours is strange.
A builder of a bridge, expects people to walk on the bridge to get from where
they are to where they need to be.

Jesus is the bridge, but the bridge serves no purpose if no one uses it.
Equally the bridge builder desires people use it, it is the whole point.

If one believes every chosen person is magically transported across the
ravine without any effort or choice, found in heaven, that is what I am
calling universalism. Responsibility, choice, love, hope, grace, endurance,
perseverance are excluded, and seen as a distraction from the work itself.

It is easy to say there is no way to compare our response to Christs sacrifice,
yet still we need to respond and exercise faith, and walk in His ways.

I grasp from your response you believe something has happened, and all you can
do is respond in praise. If you regard obedience or learning, listening and putting
into action blasphemy, from my perspective it is all pointless for you and of no
use. This is a truly religious idea.

Maybe where you are is so desperate, this is all you can do, hope.
God for me is very much alive and desires to walk with us like a friend,
which is both very strange and very privileged.

So please help me understand why Jesus is such a stranger to you, and
how you feel so defiled and lost, you cannot find this place of peace and
rest, purity and hope, knowing you are dearly loved and cared for each and
every day.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[LightLoveHope]

its a shame when people belittle what Jesus did
then rest their hope on their own shoulders....
you NEED to be blind in order for that to make sense
"oh yeah Jesus payed for my sin and is my savior... but its up to me to keep my salvation and earn it back when i mess up"
not even looking to Gods character
or the words of Jesus
you know its gonna be hard talkin to em when they post verses that dont even apply to their point and they use semantics to attempt to make sense of it

Greeting NNM,

You may have missed the points people are making.
If something does not make sense to you, it does not mean it does not make sense
to the writer.

I know very well the position you are taking and how you refine things.
At some point I have probably seen why people hold different points.
When you empathise and see something through someone elses eyes it
can change you, or it can reinforce why you hold your own position.

Jesus did not pay the price for my sin, Jesus bought me.
Jesus forgave my sin.
Jesus's death was saying He loved us despite our behaviour and is prepared
to work with us, forgiving our sins is the first step.
The key problem with sin, is our belief we are not loved so are justified to hurt
and destroy others. Jesus demonstrated this was not true, that we are the problem.

The key to our salvation is being prepared to accept His
forgiveness, and love, and walk in His ways through repentance and faith.

Your view of faith is putting Jesus at a distance, some odd equation, that does
not involve us but mysteriously changes us.

As a servant of Jesus I am called to do His bidding.
And His bidding is plain. You regard His bidding as something that can be ignored
without consequence, a proving of the price that was paid, but Jesus regards
this as rebellion and a rejection of all He represents.

If you were recruited into an army, yet refused training, the uniform or being involved
with other members of the army, you would be court martialed.

The Lord is no different than this. Read the parables. He lays it out very simply.

But suppose the servant says to himself, 'My master is taking a long time in coming,' and he then begins to beat the menservants and maidservants and to eat and drink and get drunk.
The master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he is not aware of. He will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the unbelievers.
Luke 12:45-46

Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own; you were bought at a price. Therefore honor God with your body.
1 Corinthians 6:19-20


I know many will not read these words and take them to heart, because they oppose
their view of God and salvation, so to go there is impossible without a lot of effort.

And this is why the bible is so unusual. When it becomes ones life blood, it all fits.

Do not think the violence implicit in the parable
"He will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the unbelievers"
is something anyone can just ignore, unless one has no clue what God is truly like.

God is going to send people to the lake of fire, so this is high stakes, not just a nice
drink around a fire where we are all friends. Either listen to Jesus or the highway.

 

[gb9]

This idea of yours is strange.
A builder of a bridge, expects people to walk on the bridge to get from where
they are to where they need to be.

Jesus is the bridge, but the bridge serves no purpose if no one uses it.
Equally the bridge builder desires people use it, it is the whole point.

If one believes every chosen person is magically transported across the
ravine without any effort or choice, found in heaven, that is what I am
calling universalism. Responsibility, choice, love, hope, grace, endurance,
perseverance are excluded, and seen as a distraction from the work itself.

It is easy to say there is no way to compare our response to Christs sacrifice,
yet still we need to respond and exercise faith, and walk in His ways.

I grasp from your response you believe something has happened, and all you can
do is respond in praise. If you regard obedience or learning, listening and putting
into action blasphemy, from my perspective it is all pointless for you and of no
use. This is a truly religious idea.

Maybe where you are is so desperate, this is all you can do, hope.
God for me is very much alive and desires to walk with us like a friend,
which is both very strange and very privileged.

So please help me understand why Jesus is such a stranger to you, and
how you feel so defiled and lost, you cannot find this place of peace and
rest, purity and hope, knowing you are dearly loved and cared for each and
every day.

Grace and peace to you.

because I believe in truth. I believe in honesty. I do not lie to myself and others like you do, and say I am pure and holy. because I use the actual definitions of these words to apply them. I do not count myself pure and righteous because I FEEL like I am. God does not care about my opinion of myself.

you see, I understand that no one can be good enough to get to Heaven on our own merit. that is why we need Christ's imputed righteousness to cover us. ( you know, the thing you mock as a " neat little trick " ).

so, you say that Christ only did part of the work on the Cross, and it is up to us to do our part. so, thereby , you call the Lord Jesus a liar , because He said " it is finished ". you say " no, it is not ". that is blasphemy.

 

[Locutus]

Peter and Ralph fighting over the works pacifier.

 

[star]

The very definition of grace is "unmerited". You've made salvation merit based on adherence to the law, but the law saves no one - and never has. Nobody can keep the law, not even the Jews to whom it was given. The law is simply the schoolmaster that points one to Christ.

Christians have been justified. Our sin debt has been paid in full. We are no longer guilty of any sin - past, present, or future.

Our righteousness is the very righteousness of Christ imputed to our account.

We are free.

Yes, praise God we are free. Our sins have been paid for. We unworthy humans who have accepted that unmerited gift.

Praise God from whom all blessings flow. Worship Him all creatures below.

 

[benhur]

lol you arent going to destroy the whole gospel with semantics LGF

there is no doubt salvation is by grace through faith

and those born again are saved forever

Sorry, many scriptures indicate that OSAS is only an illusion that may catch a multitude of good Christians, so that their reward in heaven may not be as robust as they are expecting.

 

[BillG]

Sorry, many scriptures indicate that OSAS is only an illusion that may catch a multitude of good Christians, so that their reward in heaven may not be as robust as they are expecting.

So what is their reward?

 

[NoNameMcgee]

Sorry, many scriptures indicate that OSAS is only an illusion that may catch a multitude of good Christians, so that their reward in heaven may not be as robust as they are expecting.

post them please

i would say youre definitely wrong in your assumption here
and all scripture points to those who are born again being saved

(born of incorruptible seed that will in no wise be cast out)

 

[benhur]

Did jesus get legalistic, stating people had to earn salvation or did he mean something else?
I have studied the jesus words well. I would not assume things.

________________________________________________________________

Well how would you analyze this statement in Matthew 6:14 where Jesus tells the crowd that if they forgive men of their trespasses, then your Father will forgive then of their trespasses. But if they do not forgive men of their trespasses, then your Father will not forgive them of their trespasses.

An interesting statement when you believe that, if you blieve in Jesus and you are saved so that Jesus will automatically forgive your trespasses and let you into the KOH.

Jesus seems to be teaching that there is another factor that is necessary if you want your trespasses forgiven, and that is that you are willing to forgive men of their trespasses against you. That seems to throw doubt into an automatic and forever forgiveness of sin.

In fact what would happen if 2 years before you suddenly die, you get into a fight with your neighbor and call him names and yell that you will never forgive him of borrowing your tractor and then driving it into a tree and wrecking it. And to this day, you and your neighbor hate each other?

Seems like Jesus is saying you may not be forgiven of your trespasses against God, which we make constantly until we die. What do you think?

 

[benhur]

post them please

i would say youre definitely wrong in your assumption here
and all scripture points to those who are born again being saved

(born of incorruptible seed that will in no wise be cast out)

See an example on my post #56330

 

[BillG]

Yes, praise God we are free. Our sins have been paid for. We unworthy humans who have accepted that unmerited gift.

Praise God from whom all blessings flow. Worship Him all creatures below.

Now I'm gonna probably get slapped down for this.
We often say we are not worthy.
As evidenced.

Matthew 8:8
8 But the officer said, “Lord, I am not worthy to have you come into my home. Just say the word from where you are, and my servant will be healed.

Luke 5:8
8 When Simon Peter realized what had happened, he fell to his knees before Jesus and said, “Oh, Lord, please leave me—I’m too much of a sinner to be around you.”

Luke 15:19
19 and I am no longer worthy of being called your son. Please take me on as a hired servant.”

However is that the reality?

I often hear believers who believe they are not worthy. Unlike the above in the verses posted.

The were sinners, yet we know even in their sinful state that God thought them worthy enough to seek them out.

John 3:16
16 “For God loved the world so much that he gave his one and only Son, so that everyone who believes in him will not perish but have eternal life.

Isaiah 43:4
4 Others were given in exchange for you.
I traded their lives for yours
because you are precious to me.
You are honored, and I love you.

Psalms 103:13-14
13 The Lord is like a father to his children,
tender and compassionate to those who fear him.
14 For he knows how weak we are;
he remembers we are only dust.

Zephaniah 3:17
17 For the Lord your God is living among you.
He is a mighty savior.
He will take delight in you with gladness.
With his love, he will calm all your fears.
He will rejoice over you with joyful songs.”

Isaiah 43:1
The Savior of Israel
1 But now, O Jacob, listen to the Lord who created you.
O Israel, the one who formed you says,
“Do not be afraid, for I have ransomed you.

I have called you by name; you are mine.

Zechariah 2:8


8 For thus says the Lord of hosts: “He sent Me after glory, to the nations which plunder you; for he who touches you touches the apple of His eye.

I have to be honest.
To me walking around thinking that we are not worthy can lead to issues concerning this thread?
Think about it.
If one does not feel worthy or loved or accepted what are they going to do?
Work hard, then work harder and harder.
No amount of works will ever be sufficient.
A dysfunctional relationship occurs between man and the Father.

John 19:28-30
The Death of Jesus
John 19:28-30// Matt 27:45-56 // Mark 15:33-41 // Luke 23:44-49
28 Jesus knew that his mission was now finished, and to fulfill Scripture he said, “I am thirsty.”29 A jar of sour wine was sitting there, so they soaked a sponge in it, put it on a hyssop branch, and held it up to his lips. 30 When Jesus had tasted it, he said, “It is finished!” Then he bowed his head and released his spirit.

John 3:16
16 “For God loved the world so much that he gave his one and only Son, so that everyone who believes in him will not perish but have eternal life.

So we are worthy.

So much so that God had a plan in place when Adam & Eve sinned.
John 3:16
That plan was accomplished when Jesus said "It is finished"

John 17:23
23 I in them, and You in Me; that they may be made perfect in one, and that the world may know that You have sent Me, and have loved them as You have loved Me.

If God did not think of us as worthy he would have wiped us out.

 

[NoNameMcgee]

See an example on my post #56330

Matthew 6
6 Take heed that ye do not your alms before men, to be seen of them: otherwise ye have no reward of your Father which is in heaven.

2 Therefore when thou doest thine alms, do not sound a trumpet before thee, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may have glory of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.

3 But when thou doest alms, let not thy left hand know what thy right hand doeth:

4 That thine alms may be in secret: and thy Father which seeth in secret himself shall reward thee openly.

5 And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.

6 But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.

7 But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.

8 Be not ye therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him.

9 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.

10 Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.

11 Give us this day our daily bread.

12 And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.

13 And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.

14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:

15 But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

16 Moreover when ye fast, be not, as the hypocrites, of a sad countenance: for they disfigure their faces, that they may appear unto men to fast. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.

17 But thou, when thou fastest, anoint thine head, and wash thy face;

18 That thou appear not unto men to fast, but unto thy Father which is in secret: and thy Father, which seeth in secret, shall reward thee openly.

19 Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust doth corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal:

20 But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal:

21 For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.

22 The light of the body is the eye: if therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light.

23 But if thine eye be evil, thy whole body shall be full of darkness. If therefore the light that is in thee be darkness, how great is that darkness!

24 No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.

25 Therefore I say unto you, Take no thought for your life, what ye shall eat, or what ye shall drink; nor yet for your body, what ye shall put on. Is not the life more than meat, and the body than raiment?

26 Behold the fowls of the air: for they sow not, neither do they reap, nor gather into barns; yet your heavenly Father feedeth them. Are ye not much better than they?

27 Which of you by taking thought can add one cubit unto his stature?

28 And why take ye thought for raiment? Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow; they toil not, neither do they spin:

29 And yet I say unto you, That even Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these.

30 Wherefore, if God so clothe the grass of the field, which to day is, and to morrow is cast into the oven, shall he not much more clothe you, O ye of little faith?

31 Therefore take no thought, saying, What shall we eat? or, What shall we drink? or, Wherewithal shall we be clothed?

32 (For after all these things do the Gentiles seek for your heavenly Father knoweth that ye have need of all these things.

33 But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.

34 Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof.

_____________


the verse you mentioned in your post is 14

you are suggesting in order to be saved
you must forgive every single person of every single thing


or you will not be forgiven?

_____________

notice this whole chapter is contrasting His will against what it is the money loving pharisees do...

right now He is stating His law and commandments in many points

it starts even earlier and continunes in 7

He even addresses them as "ye of little faith"


well in the honest truth

we are ALL going to be judged by the law benhur

all of it.... and without the imputed righteousness of Jesus

we will all fall short


but this in no way refutes born again believers WITH His imputed righteousness being able to lose their salvation

 

[BillG]

Did jesus get legalistic, stating people had to earn salvation or did he mean something else?
I have studied the jesus words well. I would not assume things.

________________________________________________________________

Well how would you analyze this statement in Matthew 6:14 where Jesus tells the crowd that if they forgive men of their trespasses, then your Father will forgive then of their trespasses. But if they do not forgive men of their trespasses, then your Father will not forgive them of their trespasses.

An interesting statement when you believe that, if you blieve in Jesus and you are saved so that Jesus will automatically forgive your trespasses and let you into the KOH.

Jesus seems to be teaching that there is another factor that is necessary if you want your trespasses forgiven, and that is that you are willing to forgive men of their trespasses against you. That seems to throw doubt into an automatic and forever forgiveness of sin.

In fact what would happen if 2 years before you suddenly die, you get into a fight with your neighbor and call him names and yell that you will never forgive him of borrowing your tractor and then driving it into a tree and wrecking it. And to this day, you and your neighbor hate each other?

Seems like Jesus is saying you may not be forgiven of your trespasses against God, which we make constantly until we die. What do you think?

Let's make it 5 minutes before you die whilst still arguing with your neighbour? Let's assume up to this point in time you have forgiven all the time, then what?

You Matthew.
Based on what you are saying then this equates to unforgivable sin.
Do you think that?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Sorry, many scriptures indicate that OSAS is only an illusion that may catch a multitude of good Christians, so that their reward in heaven may not be as robust as they are expecting.

OSAS says salvation is not earned, but is a gift. So what reward would they be trying to earn? Since the whole theology is based on all things being a gift of God based on the most precious gift, which is eternal life.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Did jesus get legalistic, stating people had to earn salvation or did he mean something else?
I have studied the jesus words well. I would not assume things.

________________________________________________________________

Well how would you analyze this statement in Matthew 6:14 where Jesus tells the crowd that if they forgive men of their trespasses, then your Father will forgive then of their trespasses. But if they do not forgive men of their trespasses, then your Father will not forgive them of their trespasses.

An interesting statement when you believe that, if you blieve in Jesus and you are saved so that Jesus will automatically forgive your trespasses and let you into the KOH.

Jesus seems to be teaching that there is another factor that is necessary if you want your trespasses forgiven, and that is that you are willing to forgive men of their trespasses against you. That seems to throw doubt into an automatic and forever forgiveness of sin.

In fact what would happen if 2 years before you suddenly die, you get into a fight with your neighbor and call him names and yell that you will never forgive him of borrowing your tractor and then driving it into a tree and wrecking it. And to this day, you and your neighbor hate each other?

Seems like Jesus is saying you may not be forgiven of your trespasses against God, which we make constantly until we die. What do you think?

I think if your doing anything to try to earn a gift, it no longer is a gift, but becomes a reward.

If it is a reward. Then it is no longer recieved by grace, but earned through works.

What say you?

I would also say if a person has never forgiven anyone of anything, Have they been born again and saved and made a new creature in christ? And that should answer your first question.

 

[benhur]

because I believe in truth. I believe in honesty. I do not lie to myself and others like you do, and say I am pure and holy. because I use the actual definitions of these words to apply them. I do not count myself pure and righteous because I FEEL like I am. God does not care about my opinion of myself.

you see, I understand that no one can be good enough to get to Heaven on our own merit. that is why we need Christ's imputed righteousness to cover us. ( you know, the thing you mock as a " neat little trick " ).

so, you say that Christ only did part of the work on the Cross, and it is up to us to do our part. so, thereby , you call the Lord Jesus a liar , because He said " it is finished ". you say " no, it is not ". that is blasphemy.

That Jesus is a bridge is a perfect analogy. The bible is full of this analogy. For instance: Matthew 6:14-15 is a perfect lesson. Jesus provides the bridge for you to walk from this life into heaven. But he has said if you do not forgive men who trespass against you, God will not forgive your trespasses against Him. So the bridge is layed down but not for those who have hate in their heart and will not forgive trespasses against them.

That is just one example. There are many more that shine a light on how Jesus is the bridge from our mortal lives to eternal life.

 

[BillG]

OSAS says salvation is not earned, but is a gift. So what reward would they be trying to earn? Since the whole theology is based on all things being a gift of God based on the most precious gift, which is eternal life.

Let's be honest.

Do we work for rewards or do we desire to walk like Jesus.
If the desire is to be rewarded then the focus is wrong.

The only reward that Jesus wanted was US

 

[BillG]

That Jesus is a bridge is a perfect analogy. The bible is full of this analogy. For instance: Matthew 6:14-15 is a perfect lesson. Jesus provides the bridge for you to walk from this life into heaven. But he has said if you do not forgive men who trespass against you, God will not forgive your trespasses against Him. So the bridge is layed down but not for those who have hate in their heart and will not forgive trespasses against them.

That is just one example. There are many more that shine a light on how Jesus is the bridge from our mortal lives to eternal life.

If I died the day after I was sexually abused by foster dad in the evening (real experience) and I had not forgiven him. Then according to what you are saying I'm off to hell?

If yes your not the first and won't be the last.


Many posts back when I revealed the above someone said along the lines

"Your experience is nothing worse than those who have suffered worse"

I was so grateful for that loving response. Sarcasm from me.

Be very careful.

You will also be judged just like I will.

"

 

[ElAmor]

AMEN...the hope of the bible...a confident expectation of something guaranteed...........not the hope of one who buys a lottery ticket like the workers for, sinless perfectionists, lawyers and law keepers..........

God calls them to rise from the dead and not be ZOMBIES who are WALKING DEAD.

New International Version 1984 Ephesians 5:14 for it is light that makes everything visible. This is why it is said: “Wake up, O sleeper, RISE FROM THE DEAD, and Christ will shine on you.”