Healing in the Atonement?

[1ofthem]

Deu 28:15 But it shall come to pass, if thou wilt not hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to observe to do all his commandments and his statutes which I command thee this day; that all these curses shall come upon thee, and overtake thee:
Gal 3:13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:
Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

If you look at all the curses under the law, you would see that sicknesses and diseases were part of that curse. Jesus came to redeem us from that curse, and He did, so long as we remain in the grace of God.
When you get off into sin without repenting, you have transgressed against the law and move out of God's grace or favor for His blessings, and therefore open yourself up for a curse.

Jas 2:7 Do not they blaspheme that worthy name by the which ye are called?
Jas 2:8 If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well:
Jas 2:9 But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors.

It is possible for a child of God to fall from Grace.

Gal 5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

Out of grace means in a curse of the law.


Again, the answer is no.
It took faith to get saved and it takes the same for healing.
Just as you had to have faith SPECIFICALLY FOR salvation, you have to have faith SPECIFICALLY FOR healing.
And just as forgiveness and cleansing of one's sins is not automatic, when they sin, neither does healing take place automatically or just because one is born again.
That is not how things works.
Faith is not an all encompassing thing, like a bomb going off, but more like a laser. You have to point it, in a specific direction or at something for a period of time, before it starts to burn a hole in the object.
Many times, one needs to fight the good fight of faith, by staying with it, not letting it go, until you get done what you believe is done or have that which you already have.


But in your case, it is obvious that you do not have any faith for anyone's healing, because you do not know what faith is.
If you do not know what God's will is, then you will not be able to have ANY faith for that which you requested.
What you just said basically is, 'let us HOPE AND PRAY to God'.
We all know God CAN, but it takes faith to know GOD WILL.


You already demonstrated that you don't know what faith is when you condemn others for saying those who don't get healed don't have enough faith. How can you make an argument against the lack of faith statement, when you yourself don't know what it is?
I am guessing that you think faith is having some kind of confidence toward something. Am I right?
If that be true, then how can you have any confidence if you don't know what God is going to do?
You can't and you don't.
Faith is certain. Hoping, wishing, or wondering is not.


That's because He told us to resist the devil, NOT TO ASK HIM TO DO IT.
And God did not tell Paul no, but told him what he needed to know to command the thing to be gone.
You don't drive the enemy out or back with a defensive weapon, like that of a shield, but with an offensive weapon, like that of a sword.

You are completely missing it if you think that God said that he will heal everyone all the time. Nothing that you or anyone else here has posted shows any scripture where that is promised. You are deceiving yourself if you think it does.


And Just exactly who are you to question my faith? Like I said before, I believe in healing. I've witnessed it first hand and let me just say, from my experience, there was no, God started gradually healing people. There was no paying the preacher or church for healing, going on either.

Then again, I've also seen God not heal people and seen many good Spirit filled Christians full of faith go to the grave with illnesses. Some of which had received healing of other issues ( not the one they died with) previously in their lives. So Just so you know, I've read the word of God and there is no way that I'm buying into what WoF is selling. God's will shall be done and that is what we should be praying for anyhow. I don't know what people don't get about that. God knows what is best for everyone and we need to pray that his will be done. In my opinion, instead of people being so worried about riches and health in this world, they need to get their minds set on things above.

I'm going to say this once more...Yeah healing is real and yeah faith can move mountains...I've been there and witnessed it myself....but healing is not promised all the time for everyone anywhere in the scripture.

 

[followjesus]

You are completely missing it if you think that God said that he will heal everyone all the time. Nothing that you or anyone else here has posted shows any scripture where that is promised. You are deceiving yourself if you think it does.


And Just exactly who are you to question my faith? Like I said before, I believe in healing. I've witnessed it first hand and let me just say, from my experience, there was no, God started gradually healing people. There was no paying the preacher or church for healing, going on either.

Then again, I've also seen God not heal people and seen many good Spirit filled Christians full of faith go to the grave with illnesses. Some of which had received healing of other issues ( not the one they died with) previously in their lives. So Just so you know, I've read the word of God and there is no way that I'm buying into what WoF is selling. God's will shall be done and that is what we should be praying for anyhow. I don't know what people don't get about that. God knows what is best for everyone and we need to pray that his will be done. In my opinion, instead of people being so worried about riches and health in this world, they need to get their minds set on things above.

I'm going to say this once more...Yeah healing is real and yeah faith can move mountains...I've been there and witnessed it myself....but healing is not promised all the time for everyone anywhere in the scripture.

I actually Knew a man very well, who turned to God because of His illness. until the illness came he was quite opposed, to hearing the Gospel and in the remaining 3 plus years of His Life, He was a man who gladly preached the gospel to anypne who would listen to Him. God uses even things we feel are not fair or just as to our Judgement, even suffering God can use for the salvation of a soul. sometimes men have to be brought Low in thier Heart and face something terribly difficult, before they will reach out and accpt the saviors Hands to Lift them up that thier soul is not Lost, the body of flesh is lost already, the soul is for salvation.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

I actually Knew a man very well, who turned to God because of His illness. until the illness came he was quite opposed, to hearing the Gospel and in the remaining 3 plus years of His Life, He was a man who gladly preached the gospel to anypne who would listen to Him. God uses even things we feel are not fair or just as to our Judgement, even suffering God can use for the salvation of a soul. sometimes men have to be brought Low in thier Heart and face something terribly difficult, before they will reach out and accpt the saviors Hands to Lift them up that thier soul is not Lost, the body of flesh is lost already, the soul is for salvation.

It is terrifying, the lengths He will go to to have us. It is a terrifying and ferocious love. Its unlike any love on earth. Sometimes His love terrifies me. I saw him take what I thought was everything from a man. Then he took the mans ability to walk. And the man finally cried out to Him.

He will take every single temporal comfort from a man to have him if that's what it takes. And then the man winds up thanking Him with tears for doing so.

 

[1ofthem]

I actually Knew a man very well, who turned to God because of His illness. until the illness came he was quite opposed, to hearing the Gospel and in the remaining 3 plus years of His Life, He was a man who gladly preached the gospel to anypne who would listen to Him. God uses even things we feel are not fair or just as to our Judgement, even suffering God can use for the salvation of a soul. sometimes men have to be brought Low in thier Heart and face something terribly difficult, before they will reach out and accpt the saviors Hands to Lift them up that thier soul is not Lost, the body of flesh is lost already, the soul is for salvation.

Amen brother....good post. Thanks for sharing it.

 

[followjesus]

Amen brother....good post. Thanks for sharing it.

God bless and always welcome. ive known many with physical issues that arent Healed here and Now, but im sure without question, its not that they dont have the proper faith. but that God delights in using the weak things to umble the strong things. when a person who deals with a debilitating ilness, daily and they are the most joyous and inspiring person in the room whatever the room, Gods glory can Be seen Just as clearly as if they got up and walked away.


something powerful about someone frail and incumbered praising God from thier suffering and trial. sometimes the strongest faith is seen in the weakest of people. im Glad God can use things that are less that useful, things that really arent worthy to be used, because i can relate. God bless you totally Loved your post ~! God Loves you sister !

 

[wolfwint]

It's the same scene of salvation wolf. You hear the gospel, you believe the word, and receive the benefit of being saved from sin. Yet, not residing in the Kingdom of heaven. By faith or increased faith, some have gone there. One can have unbelief though in hearing that some have gone into heaven and returned. Unbelief includes the definition skeptic. Skepticism. Not doubt, but doubt can lead to skepticism.

Jesus received the curse that Adam brought upon mankind and on all of creation. Death. What is the result of death coming on Adam and Eve? Corruption. Weakness, frailty. And in the world? Corruption, leading to disease and death.

He reversed the curse. But, only faith will open the door to wholeness. Be not unbelieving but have faith in God.

He declared Himself the Lord who healeth thee, to physical Israel, how much more to His spiritual Israel?

We are members of His body. Is Jesus sick?

Selah

Stones, when I read the gospels when Jesus healed then every body saw that he has healed a person. Now I should believe that he healed my physical, but neiter me nor somebody else can see this?
I mean you can believe this, but in my eyes this is an illusion. And one which is not based on that what Jesus ore the Apostle taught. We are members of his body, but we are yet not what we should be. We have till now ore mortal body which we will give up for an eternity body.

 

[wolfwint]

That is not the Love that God has shed throughout us by Holy Spirit.

But,if there was a reason for being sick, I would want to know it, and rid myself of it. There's a way to speak that is healing too.

But this is the consequence to teach such an doctrine.
And the most of those who claim that this teaching is right handle in this way. The sick is blamed, because his faith is not big enough. Where is there the love? You know Gods love? Tell me who can fully understand Gods love to us? Which deserve the hell?

 

[valiant]

NOT so.
When it comes to healing, it is primary.
It is God's will to heal all, even as it is His will to be done on earth, AS IT IS IN HEAVEN.

So it is God's will to heal all, and yet all at not healed? Seems like the Devil is more powerful than God?

AS for you misquotation of the Lord's prayer, it is so weak as to be pathetic. That refers to OUR wills doing God's will not to God's infinite will.

Just think about it.

 

[FlSnookman7]

So it is God's will to heal all, and yet all at not healed? Seems like the Devil is more powerful than God?

AS for you misquotation of the Lord's prayer, it is so weak as to be pathetic. That refers to OUR wills doing God's will not to God's infinite will.

Just think about it.

I do not think that if God's will is not accomplished that means "the devil" is stronger. I can think of another instance where most here would say God's will will not be accomplished....


1 Timothy 2:3-4 3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

 

[BenFTW]

Ben, that our Lord carried our Sickness and our pain has nothing to do with that, that he promissed physical health to every christian. And if so then he did it without expecting from us the efficient Faith. This is a man made doctrine and the reality Shows that this doctrine is not Working. The very most christians in the past died because of any diseases, when the hat no accident ore when the are not we're killed. This is a fact. And today christians become sick indepent how strong their Faith is. This is also fact. That the Lord heals Today is no question, but if the Lord is not Coming back then the healed Person will die, probably because of an other disease.
So is the Doctrine that we all can live in an health condition, while we staying on earth a false Doctrine which leads to Frustration and selfdoubting.

This may seem poorly worded, but consider it. Why should a person have faith that God will heal them? Okay, now another. On what basis can they have faith that God will heal them? All right, so after considering these two questions lets reflect on what faith is. In regards to prayer, and the prayer being answered, what does scripture say? It says to pray, believe that you have received, and it will be yours (Mark 11:24). Knowing then that faith is in part an expectation, I ask, on what basis can we expect to be healed by God?

Is your answer that we cannot expect God to heal us? If that is your answer, then there can be no faith to be healed. Why? Because faith is itself an expectation, and without that assurance you're simply left with hope. "I hope God heals me" is not the same line of thinking that scripture presents for prayer as "believe that you have received it." Do you notice something here? Personal responsibility is voided when we present doctrines that omit faith and instead put its reliance on "God's will" and hope.

Does this blame the sick person? No, it offers them a solution. One that God has spoken to me. Believe. To this I say, on what basis may we believe, specifically for healing? It must be God's word. In knowing God's word, we comprehend His will, and in understanding His will, we can have faith, expect of him, to do that which He wills. Why? God is not a liar. So, believe.

If healing is not through Christ, solidified through some form of assurance (knowing God's will), we cannot have faith to be healed. We are simply left with hope. Yet, the countless stories throughout history and those recorded in the Bible, show humanity reaching out to God as the woman who touched Jesus' garment (for healing). She believed she would be healed, why else touch His garment? So then, shall we too reach towards God, believing He will heal us? Will we have faith? Will our hope be in God, who is faithful? That is for each of us to personally decide.

 

[wolfwint]

Ben, your are stating that a Person will remain sick, because he trust not that God will heal him, right.
1. Again i find no scripture which promises Every believer to live without sickness ore handycaped during his yourney on this old dying earth.
2. The reality proofes that every believer will die, and the very most of them because their body will be sick in anyway. This has nothing to to with faith.
If it would Really our father will that bis Children would life without handycap ore Sickness we all would be Live in Proper and Good health condition.
3. The reality proofes also that People who have nothing to do with God Living a whole life in Good health condition. Are they blessed from God? More then a sick believer?
4. The conclusion of your teaching is: if you are sick it is your own fault. God wants to heal you, but you dont trust him.
How many believers are got destroyed in their trust, because the pray a lot and expierience no healing, as People like you promised it.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

Stones, when I read the gospels when Jesus healed then every body saw that he has healed a person. Now I should believe that he healed my physical, but neiter me nor somebody else can see this?
I mean you can believe this, but in my eyes this is an illusion. And one which is not based on that what Jesus ore the Apostle taught. We are members of his body, but we are yet not what we should be. We have till now ore mortal body which we will give up for an eternity body.

It is almost a repeat of the past...remember the verse where God says something like...the people don't want to hear and so they say, don't tell us these things but tell us things pleasant to our ears. Don't tell us things we don't like. And so the men who told them things pleasing to their ears they approved of and the ones who said hard things they wanted to silence and throw into wells.

But its a mind that has the mind of God on suffering (by living through some of it) that understands He is never giving us a stone but good bread to feed and nourish and grow us.

 

[valiant]

I do not think that if God's will is not accomplished that means "the devil" is stronger. I can think of another instance where most here would say God's will will not be accomplished....


1 Timothy 2:3-4 3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

but it is NOT God's will that everybody will be saved and come to a knowledge of the truth. The word 'all' here means all types and grades of men as the context clearly shows,;
l

 

[1ofthem]

God bless and always welcome. ive known many with physical issues that arent Healed here and Now, but im sure without question, its not that they dont have the proper faith. but that God delights in using the weak things to umble the strong things. when a person who deals with a debilitating ilness, daily and they are the most joyous and inspiring person in the room whatever the room, Gods glory can Be seen Just as clearly as if they got up and walked away.


something powerful about someone frail and incumbered praising God from thier suffering and trial. sometimes the strongest faith is seen in the weakest of people. im Glad God can use things that are less that useful, things that really arent worthy to be used, because i can relate. God bless you totally Loved your post ~! God Loves you sister !

Amen brother…God bless you and I have enjoyed and loved your post as well.

I have come in contact and known people like you are talking about also. They are an inspiration to me. I don’t see how anyone could see them as not having much faith. I actually see them as stronger than I am, at times, and they are an inspiration to me. They have their minds set on things above and looking toward the goal knowing that the suffering they endure in this world won’t even compare to the glory that they will receive at the end. And God gets glory and praise from their testimonies.

And with your other post, I have also seen God get some’s attention by bringing them down. They were truly thankful that he got their attention by whatever means necessary, saving their soul, and putting their affections on things above. And God gets glory and praise from their testimonies.

I’ve also seen and experienced healing myself. And God gets the glory and praise from healing as well. God is good and his will is good. He knows what is best for all his children, so I want to live close enough to him that I can be able to praise him in all things knowing that he knows what is best for me and working all things to my good.

I don’t just want to be like a fair weather friend and only praise him when I think things are going well for me in this world. I want to have my affections set on things above knowing that no matter what happens in this world it is nothing compared to the glory that we will receive when we make it home to be with our Savior, and our God.

Once again, I really enjoyed your posts and God bless you my friend.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

That is not the Love that God has shed throughout us by Holy Spirit.

But,if there was a reason for being sick, I would want to know it, and rid myself of it. There's a way to speak that is healing too.

We may never know the reason until we see God face to face. That is no need to turn from God. Or shed your faith. All things work together for the good. We should. Take our sickness, and seek the good that can come out of it.

Nothing wrong with praying for healing. The error comes when God does not heal and people say there must be some reason, because God always promised to heal.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

NOT so.
When it comes to healing, it is primary.
It is God's will to heal all, even as it is His will to be done on earth, AS IT IS IN HEAVEN.

This is the lie. This is the point of contention. This is the doctrine that states God wills to heal all people. This is the one which turns those who do not get healed from God.

God does will to heal all. Just not on this earth, if this was true, NO ONE WOULD DIE.

Why you can not get this through your senses is beyond me.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I just want to point out, once again, that this parallel in this discussion is ignored by the opposition (because it shows Isaiah 53 actually does refer to physical healing as well).

Can you name a person who says God does not heal physical infirmities?

Just one?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

If I point out flaws in this post of yours, are you going to ignore it like you did the last two?
I just don't care to waste more of my time, simply because you can't resist some of my uneducated knowledge of scripture.

You mean like you do other peoples post?

Yes, please stop wasting your time, and ours.

 

[7seasrekeyed]

I would like you to know that faith is not like a mountain or flat land, but like MANY different kinds of mountains, varying in size, and with hills, to mole hills, to flat lands, where there is no faith.
It is not one faith blankets all.
You can have faith for one thing but not another.
Take salvation verses healing.
Just about anyone can believe for salvation, but it is an entirely different matter for a physical healing, because it gets REAL at that point.

what makes you think I need you to tell me about faith?

the problem is the way you and others here talk about faith, in a way that suggests God bypasses some because they do not have enough faith..

you overlook the fact that Jesus spoke of faith...the smallest amount as a grain of mustard seed...as ENOUGH faith

YOU contradict God when you say otherwise and try to blame people when they are not healed

they are not healed because the Bible NEVER said all would be healed

Just about anyone can believe for salvation

is that so ?!? it's much harder to believe for healing, is it?

well go ahead then and empty out the nearest hospital by getting everyone saved and healed

you don't even make sense.

God is my Father and I know that He also extends the faith I have to believe IN Him for Himself and any other need I may have

Many many answered prayers, including some for healing, are proof of this...but I am not looking for proof

MANY different kinds of mountains, varying in size, and with hills, to mole hills, to flat lands, where there is no faith.

provide scripture that indicates when we pray we have to make sure we have the 'type' of faith that is appropriate for the occasion

what you are writing is nonsense

 

[Chester]

I will not try to argue from theology or from the Bible: both sides are doing that already:

I give you this scenario: (and it is a scenario - though we all have people around us who this is true of)

Charles had a bad accident when he was 18 and is paralyzed from the neck down. He was angry at God for a few years, but now you will find him to be a cheerful person who has accepted his lot in life. He is a believer looking forward to heaven.

How would you who believe that healing is in the atonement approach such a situation?

My opinion? I would not let you get close to Charles - you will try to get him to pray for healing and that will become his drive and he will become frustrated, discouraged, and lose his assurance of salvation! (Don't try to say this doesn't happen - I have seen it happen!)