ANIMAL SACRIFICES to resume FOR US in the future!

BibleGuy · Feb 23, 2018

Hi there LoveGodForever,

I'm going sequentially through this thread...now up to post #171.

So yes, I've answered your position in detail earlier in this thread.

Perhaps you've already answered me? I hope to find out as I read further through this thread...

Anyway, you wrote here: "What you are promoting is that Christs sacrifice is not sufficient..."

My response: Christ HIMSELF comes to RESTORE animal sacrifices (Mal. 3:1-4).

So, your position is immediately contradicted by Malachi.

You wrote: " you are...trying to introduce the shadow laws that pointed to Jesus in the Old Covenant."

My response: The shadow laws were never terminated.

I'm not re-introducing the Torah of the Old Covenant.

That very Torah passes into the New Covenant (see "TORAH" in Jer. 31).

So, the Torah persists!

Jesus said we must not violate even the smallest of Torah commands (Mt. 5:19), lest we be least in the forthcoming kingdom. And this teaching of Jesus applies to all disciples (Mt. 28:20).

So, I'm merely upholding Jesus' affirmation of the perpetuity of the Torah which persists even into the New Covenant (see "TORAH", Jer. 31).

AND, the Old Covenant did NOT yet pass away as of the New-Covenant-era time of the writing of Heb. 8:13, thereby proving that the New Covenant and Old Covenant function simultaneously.

Anyway, I hope to hear from you further as I read further through this thread....

blessings to you.

PS If you (or anyone else) want to engage me sooner, just send me a private message here and we can chat privately.

BibleGuy · Feb 23, 2018

TMS said:

You wrote: "Animal sacrifices are useless in the heavenly process. They are an insult to the sacrifice that Jesus has made."

My response: You MUST be wrong. Jesus will come to RESTORE those very sacrifices you oppose (Mal. 3:1-4).

And after the Lord's return, we find a global command to participate in the sacrifice-laden feast of Sukkot (Zec. 14).

Again, you MUST be wrong to oppose animal sacrifices.

And, Jer. 33 GUARANTEES perpetual Levitical activity (which, of course, entails animal sacrifices). Again, you MUST be wrong.

Let's stop pitting Hebrews 9 against the prophets.

BOTH are true.

Thus, we must seek CONSISTENT interpretations which account for ALL Scripture (2 Ti. 3:16) which, of course, entails animal sacrifices, just as Moses GUARANTEES will be resumed in the future (Dt. 30).

Ezekiel agrees (Eze. 40-47).

Enough said here.

regards...

BibleGuy · Feb 23, 2018

tanakh said:

Hello,

Yes, it WAS a shadow.

AND, they CONTINUE (present tense! Col. 2:17) to be a shadow.

The shadow, therefore, persists, according to Paul.

That's why Paul CONDONES (not opposes!) animal sacrifices (Ac. 21).

We should likewise imitate Paul (1 Cor. 11:1).

blessings...

Studyman · Feb 23, 2018

BibleGuy said:

In order for any creatures with "free Will" to live together in harmony they must accept the need for sacrifice. People, God's, it doesn't matter. If we are not willing to sacrifice of ourselves for the good of others there would be no peace, no joy, no harmony, ever. This should be evident to anyone in the world today.

Jesus is the living example of this sacrifice and the Holy Days and Priesthood is a Spiritual fore shadow of His Sacrifices. This is why He says to "Pick up our cross (Life experiences) and Follow Him (Walk as He walked).

Rom. 12:1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

Luke 14:33
So likewise, whosoever he be of you that forsaketh not all that he hath, he cannot be my disciple.

All the sacrificial "Examples" written for our admonition are to prepare us for this reality. Only by offering our human self to God and His Word can we understand this. The "Examples" you quoted are spiritual examples of a time when everyone who is called by His Name will understand and partake of these spiritual examples of sacrifice.

"No greater Love has a man for his brother than to lay down His Life".

Ex. 32:31 And Moses returned unto the LORD, and said, Oh, this people have sinned a great sin, and have made them gods of gold.
32 Yet now, if thou wilt forgive their sin--; and if not, blot me, I pray thee, out of thy book which thou hast written.

Lev. 19:18 Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the LORD.

John 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.
16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
17
Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

This is hard to understand and most people aren't willing to accept Him in this regard.

John 6:53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.
54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
55 For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.
56 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.
57 As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me.

65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
66 From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.

Matt. 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

There is no shortcut to be granted understanding of God's Word. It begins with obedience, which is true faith. Without this obedience there is no knowledge.

Acts 5:32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

Since Eve and the Serpent, satan has worked to keep us from this obedience. It uses God's Word, it comes in Christ's Name as "Ministers of Righteousness". Jesus warns over and over about it.

Without this obedience there is no understanding of Sacrifice, and there is no truth in us.

Ps. 34:18 The LORD is nigh unto them that are of a broken heart; and saveth such as be of a contrite spirit.

1 John 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

Ps. 51:16 For thou desirest not sacrifice; else would I give it: thou delightest not in burnt offering.
17 The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise.

Is. 58:13 If thou turn away thy foot from the sabbath, from doing thy pleasure on my holy day; and call the sabbath a delight, the holy of the LORD, honourable; and shalt honour him, not doing thine own ways, nor finding thine own pleasure, nor speaking thine own words:
14 Then shalt thou delight thyself in the LORD; and I will cause thee to ride upon the high places of the earth, and feed thee with the heritage of Jacob thy father: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it.

Without understanding the Spiritual reason behind the sacrifices in the past, it is not possible to understand the reference to them in the future.

preston39 · Feb 23, 2018

PlainWord said:

Until He returns? You do realize that the Parousia of Christ happened in 70 AD, right? The Presence of Christ returned to punish the wicked of Jerusalem. This was called, "the wrath of the Lamb." In case you didn't know.

P...,

Please explain in detail.

BibleGuy · Feb 24, 2018

TMS said:

Jesus believes sacrifices are good and proper (Mt. 21:13 quotes Is. 56:7), and this teaching applies to ALL disciples (Mt. 28:20).

Jesus believes that our response to even the smallest of Torah instructions will determine our position in the forthcoming kingdom (Mt. 5:19).

Jesus believes that even religious people face potentially very negative consequences if they oppose Torah (Mt. 7:21-23; Mt. 13:41-42).

I'll go with Jesus, not with what "some believe".

Hope you go with Jesus too!

blessings...

7777pinacled · Feb 24, 2018

Ezekiel8 said:

Well an animal sacrifice is not the same as the slaughter of animals for food. The sacrificed animal can be eaten for food in some circumstances, but this is not the main purpose for why people sacrifice animals.

I suppose it might be helpful to understand the difference between sacrifice and slaughter for food and reasons why animals are sacrificed both in the Bible and by the pagans.

The main difference is animals slaughtered for food are done just for the sole purpose of killing the animal to harvest it for food. Animal sacrifice is done in a religious manner for various religious reasons.

The main points of sacrificing animals are:

1. As an offering, commemoration, payment of a vow, a thanksgiving, or praise to God in the biblical sense or various other forces of nature or spirits in the pagan sense.
For examples: The sacrifice offered by Abel. The massive animal sacrifice performed by King Solomon in commemorating the first temple, the guidelines of the thanksgiving offering laid out in Leviticus, etc.

In the pagan sense; the hindus perform some of the biggest modern animal sacrifices to ritually act out and memorialize the acts of their various demons, for example in the festival to their chief demoness they sacrifice several cattle, typically buffalo, to commemorate the legend that their demoness slew an asura whom took the guise of a cattle.

2. For atonement of sins or purposes of cleansing oneself or a building or a nation.
For example: When King David offered animal sacrifices on the threshing floor of Ornan to atone and stay the plague which broke out for him numbering the people. The various codes of sin offerings in Leviticus

In the pagan sense; The unbelieving jews every year on the day before Yom Kippur perform an animal sacrifice of chickens (traditionally a rooster) and this is called kapparot (literally atonement) in which they swing a rooster three times over their heads and recite a prayer along the lines of "I offer this rooster in place of my sins. The rooster will go to his death while I enter in to a long and prosperous life." The chickens are then ritually sacrificed later that day. This is the main ritual of the unbelieving jews to which I am talking with in my personal exchange with BibleGuy. Believe it or not, this takes place in America every single year and it is totally legal under American law.

3. To invoke God or a spirit or a force of nature for the purpose of gaining a blessing, a cursing, or a portent.
For example: Elijah offering the sacrifice to God in the test of Baal to prove that our God exists and will answer by fire. The first Passover sacrifice made in Egypt so that the Angel of Death would pass over the houses of Israel 9and of course the Passover sacrifice and ritual would later move into being a memorial type sacrifice in memorial that God spared the firstborn of Israel and smote the Egyptians and led Israel out of Egypt with power and might.) Balaam the wicked man attempting to cast an enchantment by offering the sacrifices to invoke God to attempt to curse Israel.

In the pagan sense this is probably the most common sacrifice of the pagans which people think of in the context of pagan animal sacrifice. Some examples are in ancient China Zhuge Liang offered sacrifices to invoke the winds to win a naval battle. In ancient Babylon, Greece, and Persia and many other places it was fairly common to sacrifice an animal to various "gods" in order to read its liver which they believed contained omens portending the fate of battles. In the religions of Santeria and Voodoo it is common to sacrifice an animal to various spirits in order to gain blessings for oneself or cursings against one's enemies, and interestingly to note this case of animal sacrifice in Santeria is the main basis for the Supreme Court case (Lukumi Babalu Aye v. City of Hialeah) which in effect legalized the kapparot ritual of the unbelieving jews in America as previous mentioned.

"As an offering, commemoration, payment of a vow, a thanksgiving, or praise to God in the biblical sense"

To the above statement, All ordinances and practices of people including kings entailing vows upon blood were broken.
even solomon failed, which is why the luciferians worship his temple

Believers are given the better Promise[covenant]of a man who is our Savior.
[FONT=&quot]that if you acknowledge publicly with your mouth that [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Yeshua[/FONT][FONT=&quot] is Lord and trust in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be [/FONT][FONT=&quot]delivered.[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]

Ezekiel8 · Feb 24, 2018

7777pinacled said:

Well firstly, let me say these are just the reasons why animal sacrifices are performed, I am not condoning nor condemning these, merely just trying to put into words why they do it so as to distinguish what is an animal sacrifice and what is simply the slaughter of animals for food, because there is a difference.

Secondly not all vows were broken, some were for sure, and all fall short, but the point here is that in some instances sacrifices are used for the payment of a vow or at the end of a vow. For instance the Nazarite vow. The Nazirite if he defiles himself will make a sacrifice of atonement. Or at the completion of his Nazarite vow he will sacrifice several animals and finally shear his head and burn the locks of the hair in the fire under the altar and the priest shall take of the offerings and put them in his hand and wave them for a wave offering, and so the Nazarite's vow is completed (Numbers 6). This is just an example of the biblical sense of sacrifices made for the defilement of a vow or for the fulfillment of a vow, the vow being the vow of a Nazarite.

As for luciferians, I don't see much point in wasting too much time on them seeing as they do not know anything about lucifer the man that made the earth tremble, nor do they know whom or what Satan even is, whom they pretend to worship to their own deception. How much less then do they know about Solomon, the temple, and the Lord God of Israel?

Well certainly Jesus is the Christ and Lord and Son of God, and he was crucified and resurrected and taken up into heaven and he will come again at the right hand of God with all power and glory.

Now just in general to the topic and everyone, this is the love of Jesus, that you keep his commandments. Now is sacrifice a commandment? No it is not a commandment, nor is it a requirement. Understanding that sacrifice is not a requirement is important. However this does not mean that it is a bad thing that there are sacrifices in the Bible nor does it mean if the sacrifices resume in accordance with the Torah that it would be a bad thing. The greater heart of the issue is not the sacrifices themselves, but rather a restoration of Israel to God before the end of the world.

Also as it pertains to sacrifices, just making a sacrifice for whatever reason does not necessarily mean that reason is accepted either. For it is important to remember that God can accept or reject the sacrifice, and God has many times accepted sacrifices and has many times rejected sacrifices, most notably in the first instance of sacrifices being performed by Abel, whose sacrifice was accepted, and by Cain whose sacrifice was rejected. Note also the Proverb of Solomon in which the adulteress thinks because she has peace offerings that this gives her a license to cheat on her husband, her sacrifice is not accepted and her whoredom is a snare to the young man of the Proverb 7. Or as many seem to talk much about the later chapters of Ezekiel, consider the early chapters and how Israel offered sacrifices, but their sacrifices were not accepted because as in Ezekiel 8 they were committing idolatry with every idol of the heathens and to the hosts of heaven like the sun and none of their sacrifices delivered them out of the hand of the Lord whom in his righteous fury delivered Israel into the hand of Nebuchadnezzar the king of the first beast kingdom of the lion.

I would also say another point here is everyone is all worked up about the possible resumption of animal sacrifice as is foretold in the prophets. However let's not put the cart before the horse. In order for the sacrifices to resume and to be done in accordance to Torah and prophets several things still have to happen. Namely the repentance of the unbelieving jews first and foremost before anything else can happen. They cannot make a sacrifice which the Lord will accept and at the same time reject the Lord, whom is Jesus, for if they do that then he will just reject them likewise and their sacrifices.

garee · Feb 24, 2018

And what will they represent as a shadow or ceremonial law?

BibleGuy · Feb 24, 2018

Angela53510 said:

Hello,

Thanks for answering.

You wrote: "But I have the politeness to post the actual verse, so anyone reading can compare immediately if my "interpretation" is true, or out to lunch."

My response: I have the courtesy to cite the Biblical reference so that readers may read whatever translation they prefer so as to verify the accuracy of my position using their preferred translation.

I also cite the reference (rather than quote the entire passage) for the sake of efficiency.

I also cite the reference (rather than quote the entire passage) to ensure that a given post of mine does not require multiple posts (given the post-length limitation here on this forum).

There's nothing impolite or improper about my Biblical citation methods.

So let's drop the "Biblical references are impolite" implication.

That's just a poor diversion on your part.

You wrote: "Second, sometimes the Bible says it SO CLEARLY, like in the case of the Old Covenant being obsolete, extinct, gone, there is no reason to comment."

My response: Heb. 8:13 SO CLEARLY refutes you. Heb. 8:13 states that the Old Covenant is READY/NEAR (G1451) to disappear (implying it had NOT yet disappeared as of the New-Covenant-era time of the writing of Heb. 8:13), thereby proving that the Old Covenant and New Covenant function SIMULTANEOUSLY.

Therefore you are wrong to claim that the Old Covenant is "gone".

Indeed, Paul CONDONED sacrifices (Ac. 21). Paul did NOT oppose them and say they are "gone"! Let us likewise imitate Paul (1 Cor. 11:1).

You wrote: "Interpreting, for me is a BAD word. Because, it is all about me. My opinions! Now, exegeting, looking into the words, in Greek or Hebrew, but also using good hermeneutical practices, which you are clueless about, is a better way to discuss the Bible."

My response: Nonsense! YOUR choices regarding hermeneutical practices are grounded in YOUR interpretations and opinions regarding how and why specific hermeneutical practices should be applied in specific cases.

Therefore, your position is self-refuting. Why? Because you say it is BAD to be "interpreting", yet you employ hermeneutical practices which require "interpreting"!

Your position ought to be rejected now because it is self-refuting.

You wrote: "Now, exegeting, looking into the words, in Greek or Hebrew, but also using good hermeneutical practices, which you are clueless about, is a better way to discuss the Bible."

My response: You have failed to prove I am "clueless". Once again, your position fails.

You wrote: "You are practicing eisigesis. That means, you start with an idea "The Torah sacrifices are returning to the 4th Temple, when it is built" and then grabbing a bunch of disassociated verses to prove your point."

My response: Fake news! I START with BIBLE. The BIBLE confirms that JESUS will restore Levitical sacrifices (Mal. 3:1-4).

JESUS affirms that sacrifices are good and proper (by quoting Is. 56:7), and this applies to all disciples (Mt. 28:20).

Apparently you just don't like what Jesus will do in the future.

Apparently you desire to oppose what Jesus supports.

I URGE you to stop the fake news.

Stop the false accusations.

Stop opposing Jesus.

Get back to the Bible.

You wrote: "You are practicing bad hermeneutics, which only makes sense since you have drawn such totally wrong conclusion."

My response: Rather, you simply dislike the Biblical considerations I've brought forth, so you therefore falsely accuse me of "bad hermeneutics" without a shred of evidence to support your position.

Yikes!

Time for you to repent.

You wrote: "Here are some excellent verses which PROVE that animal sacrifices are not necessary!
Gen. 12:10, 34:3; Exodus 14:9, 14; Lev. 20:2, 22:5, 19, 24; Numbers 4:25, Deut. 6:6, 30:18, Joshua 9:12; 1 Sam. 15:22; 1 Kings 22:8; 2 Kings 3:34; Job 2:10: Psalm 4:10, 15:7, 22:6, 39:13, 149:5, Isa. 53:5d: Jeremiah 48:15; Ezekiel 32:8.

See! I proved you were wrong! "

My response: haha! You're serious? Ex. 14:9,14 addresses animal sacrifices??? Obviously not!

Nor do any of the following prove that animal sacrifices will not occur in the future: Ge. 12:10; Ge. 34:3; Lev. 20:2; 22:5,19,24; Nu. 4:25; Dt. 6:6; 30:18; Jos. 9:12; 1 Sa. 15:22; 1 Ki. 22:8; 2 Ki. 3:34; Job 2:10; Ps. 4:10; 15:7; 22:6; 39:13; 149:5; Is. 53:5; Jer. 48:15; Eze. 32:8.

So, I think you're just joking and trolling at this point.

AND, were Jeremiah (Jer. 33) and Ezekiel (Eze. 40-47) and Malachi (Mal. 3) and Zechariah (Zec. 14) just joking about forthcoming future sacrifices?

NOT!

Therefore, you've merely (and needlessly) set forth an alleged Bible contradiction between your cited verses and the prophets I've cited.

In fact, Dt. 6:6 requires Torah-obedience which, of course, requires animal sacrifices. So the very verse you cited (Dt. 6:6) supports my position.

And the very chapter you cited (Dt. 30) requires that we OBSERVE Torah (Dt. 30:14) which, of course, requires animal sacrifices. And Paul agrees, FAVORABLY citing Dt. 30:14 at Rom. 10:4.

Sure, obedience is better than sacrifice (1 Sa. 15:22), but this does NOT entail that sacrifices are not required. But at least this verse somewhat pertains to the matter at hand, unlike the boat-load of other verses you cited which are utterly irrelevant or nonexistent!

AND, you cited "2 Kings 3:34" which DOES NOT EVEN EXIST! Oops...better check than one.

AND, you cited "Ps. 4:10" which DOES NOT EVEN EXIST! Oops...better check than one too.

AND, you cited "Ps. 15:7" which DOES NOT EVEN EXIST! Wow...please stop using Scriptures which DO NOT EXIST.

You're definitely trolling me at this point...but hey, I'll finish up this post anyway.

You wrote: "So, are you now going to read each and everyone of those verses? I could have added more, just to overwhelm you with verses. In fact, to my knowledge, only one of those verses apply to animal sacrifices. Although I suppose random chance might have hit on another. I made up the addresses, hoping no one will take the time to check them out."

My response: SO you concede that you speak foolishness. I rest my case.

You wrote: "By actually posting the verses, as I do below, it saves you and the other readers the time of having to look each address up to see if it means anything, or not. And how out of context or not it is."

My response: By NOT posting the full quote, it permits the reader to make his/her own choice regarding preferred translations.

It "saves time" ? Well then, I save time by citing the reference (rather than providing the full quotation).

You wrote: "So, do you want to guess which one in that long list of addresses is correct? Look them all up? Or, I could just do what forum etiquette says, and copy and paste, or even type out the actual verses we are discussing."

My response: Look up the verses for yourself. I don't need to take the time to do what you can do for yourself (if you choose). Get over it.

And, if you dispute a specific usage of a reference, THEN we can delve into the details. THAT is the etiquette I prefer, and there's nothing wrong with it. Moving on now!

Regarding 1 Sa. 15:22, you said: " the sacrifice is not only irrelevant, but soon to be replaced by Jesus (Ok, maybe in 1000 years - call it foreshadowing)..."

My response: Nothing in 1 Sa. 15:22 states that sacrifices should not be performed according to Torah. It merely confirms that obedience is better than sacrifices.

So, 1 Sa. 15:22 fails to prove that animal sacrifices will not occur in the future.

AND, Mal. 3 and Jer. 33 and Zec. 14 and Eze. 40-47 and Dt. 30:1-8 confirm that animal sacrifices WILL occur in the future.

Your position remains unproven.

Now, regarding Hebrews 10, it is true that God's plan to once-for-all (Heb. 10:12) take away sins requires that God "takes away" (Heb. 10:9) from Jesus the requirements of burnt offerings or animal sacrifices for Jesus' sins....because after all, Jesus never sinned!

Therefore, sacrifices are required for people in general (according to the law which the writer of Hebrews AGREES are required, Heb. 10:8), but God takes away this requirement from Jesus because Jesus never sinned, and instead, God requires the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Himself (Heb. 10:10) so that He could take away sins once-for-all.

But, does this entail that animal sacrifices should no longer be performed?

Of course not!

That VERY CHAPTER (Heb. 10:16) requires that Torah be placed into our hearts so that we obey it, and Torah requires ANIMAL SACRIFICES.

So, if you set Heb. 10:16 against the rest of the chapter, then you've merely (and needlessly!) set forth an alleged Biblical contradiction.

You can embrace contradictions if you really need to.

I choose to embrace ALL Scripture, which requires Torah (Heb. 10:16) which, in turn, requires sacrifices, just as the prophets confirm will occur in the future (Jer. 33; Zec. 14; Eze. 40-47; Dt. 30; Mal. 3), and you've given us no good reason to oppose the prophets.

Regarding Heb. 10:18, sure, we don't need offerings to fully take away our sins because Jesus has already done this for us. But that doesn't prove that animal sacrifices will not occur in the future according to the prophets (Jer. 33; Zec. 14; Eze. 40-47; Dt. 30; Mal. 3).

You wrote: "Over and over, the writer of Hebrews says NO LONGER AN OFFERING FOR SIN, and "AFTER OFFERING ONE SACRIFICE FOR SINS FOREVER," and "HE TAKES AWAY THE FIRST, TO ESTABLISH THE SECOND (Covenant)."

My response: Again, sure, we don't need offerings to fully take away our sins because Jesus has already done this for us. But that doesn't prove that animal sacrifices will not occur in the future according to the prophets (Jer. 33; Zec. 14; Eze. 40-47; Dt. 30; Mal. 3).

AND, Paul and thousands of others (and even animal-sacrificing priests!) CONDONED sacrifices in the New-Covenant era (Ac. 21; Ac. 6). We should imitate Paul and do likewise (1 Cor. 11:1).

AND, Heb. 10 never states that the OLD COVENANT was taken away (you just made that up....EISEGESIS again!). After all, Heb. 8:13 confirms that the Old Covenant was READY to disappear (as of the New-Covenant-era time of the writing of Hebrews), thereby confirming that the Old Covenant and New Covenant function SIMULTANEOUSLY. So, you can't "take away" the Old Covenant in Heb. 10 when Heb. 8 confirms it has NOT yet been taken away. That's just another contradiction in your position again.

Moreover, TORAH (see "Torah" in Jer. 31) passes directly into the New Covenant (confirmed again in Heb. 8 and again in Heb. 10:16!) And WHAT does Torah require? Animal sacrifices! (as even Heb. 10:8 affirms the law requires).

So, your opposition to animal sacrifices fails.

Please get back to the Bible...ALL the Bible (2 Ti. 3:16) which includes animal-sacrifice laws which should CORRECT and TRAIN your behavior (2 Ti. 3:16), written by Paul who CONDONED animal sacrifices (Ac. 21) to prove he walked "orderly according to the Torah" (Ac. 21) which, of course, entails obedience to animal-sacrifice law.

We should imitate Paul's Torah-upholding (and sacrifice-condoning) example, not oppose it!

Many Jews KNOW about the legitimacy of animal sacrifices, and an ongoing impediment to the unity between ALL God's people is misunderstandings such as this.

May we pursue the UNITY Jesus desires, setting aside bogus interpretations which divide what God desires to unite.

You wrote: "The Torah, the ritual ceremonies the sacrifice is over! Jesus took their place! They were only meant to foreshadow Jesus."

My response: Oops! You just made that up! That's just what you WANT to be true.

However, Jesus said your response to even the very LEAST of Torah commands will determine your position in the forthcoming kingdom (Mt. 5:19).

Get back to the Bible. PLEASE.

And, the VERY JESUS of which you speak shall RESTORE those very sacrifices (Mal. 3:1-4).

Get back to the Bible.

You wrote: "It doesn't matter which translation you look at - the Old Covenant is obsolete, and vanishing: old and age, about to disappear, GONE, GONE, GONE!"

My response: Oops! You just conceded that it is "about" to disappear! That means it did NOT yet disappear!

Therefore, it is NOT "gone, gone, gone".

And, it is still to come, as the prophets guarantee (Jer. 33; Zec. 14; Eze. 40-47; Dt. 30; Mal. 3).

You wrote: "You are re-crucifying Jesus, and/or discounting what he did on the cross, to say that we will ever need land based animal sacrifices."

My response: Oops! You just made that up again. (Thus you fall prey to the very "eisegesis" accusation you wrongly throw at me). And Paul and THOUSANDS of 1st-century disciples condoned sacrifices (Ac. 21), so you must truly be wrong.

And Jesus Himself will RESTORE Levitical sacrifices to be as they were "as in the days of old as in former years". (Mal. 3:1-4).

And Jesus will rebuild a temple (Zec. 6). And sacrifices happen in the temple!

And Jesus AFFIRMS sacrifices (quoting Is. 56:7), yet you OPPOSE what Jesus affirms?

Yikes!

Time for you to repent.

You wrote: "The promises in the OT were revoked because they were conditional on the obedience of Israel."

My response: Oops! You just made that up.

And the promises of God are "YES" for us in Christ (2 Cor. 1:20), and this includes the promise of return to 100% Torah-obedience when we return to share in the promised land-inheritance (Dt. 30:1-8), and this of course entails future animal sacrifices.

Furthermore, the condition of Eze. 43:11 WILL BE SATISFIED (Eze. 16:61) in the future, thereby confirming that the animal sacrifices of Eze. 40-47 are yet FUTURE.

AND, all of us Christians ARE ISRAELITES (Jer. 31 says the New Covenant is between God and ISRAEL). That's why we Israelites (in Christ) share in the promises of God to Israel, including the promise of a restored temple and animal sacrifices (Jer. 33; Eze. 40-47; Mal. 3; Dt. 30; Zec. 14).

Let's get back to the Bible.

You wrote: "The NT is clear, we are all one body. "

My response: Indeed...an ISRAELITE body. And TORAH is given to us (Mal. 4:4), and this entails animal sacrifices.

Stop opposing the Torah given to YOU.

You wrote: "This combination "worst of dispensationalism/Hebrew Roots" is so far from the Biblical picture, of Jesus!!"

My response: Huh? I oppose "dispensationalism", and "Hebrew Roots" has no clear definition. I just uphold the Bible.

By the way, the Bible says Jesus will restore Levitical sacrifices (Mal. 3).

Therefore, it is YOUR viewpoint that is so far from the Biblical picture of Jesus!

You wrote: "The whole purpose of animal sacrifice was to pay for sins! Now we have Jesus who paid it all!"

My response: Oops. You just made that up again. Heb. 10:11 confirms that Torah-sanctioned sacrifices NEVER take away (or pay for) sins.

And that very Jesus who "paid it all" will RESTORE Levitical sacrifices (Mal. 3) in fulfillment of the Davidic Covenant (Jer. 33) which you evidently also oppose.

Yes, Jesus paid it all. But that very Jesus will RESTORE the sacrifices too (Mal. 3).

Please stop opposing the Levitical sacrifices of the Davidic Covenant which are guaranteed with the permanence of day and night (Jer. 33:20).

You have opposed the Davidic Covenant.

Please stop.

You wrote: "This passage clearly lays out the purpose of the Old Covenant, and that Christ is a better offering, a better covenant, a better sacrifice! Because, as Hebrews 8:13 points out, when Christ did this, he made the Old Covenant OBSOLETE! It vanished! Replaced by a better covenant."

My response: Sure, the New Covenant is better. But the Old Covenant persists, even though it is obsolete (Heb. 8:13).

And, Heb. 8:13 does NOT state that the Old Covenant "vanished" ! You just made that up. AND EVEN YOU have conceded that it is "about to disappear", thereby conceding that it has NOT yet disappeared, just as Heb. 8:13 likewise confirms.

Therefore, the Old Covenant had NOT "vanished" as of the time of the writing of Heb. 8:13.

And regarding the New Covenant, WHAT should we obey? TORAH! (see "Torah" in Jer. 31). And Torah entails animal sacrifices. Thus, animal sacrifices and the New Covenant are CONSISTENT.

Please stop opposing Scripture.

Get back to the Bible.

You wrote: "So, I hope you see why I am not going to look up every address you post."

My response: Ok. Ignore the evidence which disconfirms you. That's between you and God. PAUL said that ALL Scripture should correct and train your behavior (2 Ti. 3:16), but apparently you don't want to bother looking up ALL Scripture which Paul referenced in 2 Ti. 3:16.

Hey! Are you also going to accuse Paul (as you accuse me) of being "impolite" for not literally quoting "all Scripture" ? (2 Ti. 3:16). After all, he merely REFERRED to "all Scripture" without quoting it (2 Ti. 3:16), right?

Hopefully you now see the silliness of your "Biblical references without quotations are impolite" objection.

You wrote: "If you really cared, you would post them yourself, instead of coming on here with rapid machine gun fire of addresses, that most of us will not bother to look at. If you have any point at all, then I want to read the verse, and in context."

My response: The depth of my care for you is so great that I will not quote what may likely merely incur greater liability for judgment on your part. (To whom much has been given, much more will be required.) Better for you to remain ignorant of the verses I've cited, rather than defiantly oppose them (without justification) after looking them up.

Thus I conceal from those who do not have ears to ear, just like Jesus also did (Mt. 13:14).

And seriously, is it really that tough to look up a few prophets which disprove you? (Jer. 33; Eze. 40-47; Dt. 30; Zec. 14; Mal. 3).

Of course not. Just looks like you're seeking excuses to avoid looking them up.

Paul holds you accountable for them (2 Ti. 3:16), but apparently you prefer to "not bother to look at" them.

If you don't seek, then don't expect to find much.

You wrote: "Of course, you do NOT have a point. No Torah, no animals sacrifices needed. Jesus died once for all! "It is finished!"

My response: Oops. You forgot to prove this baseless claim.

My point is simple: Animal sacrifices will resume in the future (Jer. 33; Eze. 40-47; Dt. 30; Zec. 14; Mal. 3; Is. 66), and we Israelites shall play a role in that very activity.

You just don't like that fact.

That's all.

regards...

BibleGuy · Feb 24, 2018

laymen said:

Keep reading!

ALL Scripture (2 Ti. 3:16) should correct and train your behavior, and that includes animal-sacrifice laws when properly performed.

7777pinacled · Feb 24, 2018

Ezekiel8 said:

Well firstly, let me say these are just the reasons why animal sacrifices are performed, I am not condoning nor condemning these, merely just trying to put into words why they do it so as to distinguish what is an animal sacrifice and what is simply the slaughter of animals for food, because there is a difference.

Secondly not all vows were broken, some were for sure, and all fall short, but the point here is that in some instances sacrifices are used for the payment of a vow or at the end of a vow. For instance the Nazarite vow. The Nazirite if he defiles himself will make a sacrifice of atonement. Or at the completion of his Nazarite vow he will sacrifice several animals and finally shear his head and burn the locks of the hair in the fire under the altar and the priest shall take of the offerings and put them in his hand and wave them for a wave offering, and so the Nazarite's vow is completed (Numbers 6). This is just an example of the biblical sense of sacrifices made for the defilement of a vow or for the fulfillment of a vow, the vow being the vow of a Nazarite.

As for luciferians, I don't see much point in wasting too much time on them seeing as they do not know anything about lucifer the man that made the earth tremble, nor do they know whom or what Satan even is, whom they pretend to worship to their own deception. How much less then do they know about Solomon, the temple, and the Lord God of Israel?

Well certainly Jesus is the Christ and Lord and Son of God, and he was crucified and resurrected and taken up into heaven and he will come again at the right hand of God with all power and glory.

Now just in general to the topic and everyone, this is the love of Jesus, that you keep his commandments. Now is sacrifice a commandment? No it is not a commandment, nor is it a requirement. Understanding that sacrifice is not a requirement is important. However this does not mean that it is a bad thing that there are sacrifices in the Bible nor does it mean if the sacrifices resume in accordance with the Torah that it would be a bad thing. The greater heart of the issue is not the sacrifices themselves, but rather a restoration of Israel to God before the end of the world.

Also as it pertains to sacrifices, just making a sacrifice for whatever reason does not necessarily mean that reason is accepted either. For it is important to remember that God can accept or reject the sacrifice, and God has many times accepted sacrifices and has many times rejected sacrifices, most notably in the first instance of sacrifices being performed by Abel, whose sacrifice was accepted, and by Cain whose sacrifice was rejected. Note also the Proverb of Solomon in which the adulteress thinks because she has peace offerings that this gives her a license to cheat on her husband, her sacrifice is not accepted and her whoredom is a snare to the young man of the Proverb 7. Or as many seem to talk much about the later chapters of Ezekiel, consider the early chapters and how Israel offered sacrifices, but their sacrifices were not accepted because as in Ezekiel 8 they were committing idolatry with every idol of the heathens and to the hosts of heaven like the sun and none of their sacrifices delivered them out of the hand of the Lord whom in his righteous fury delivered Israel into the hand of Nebuchadnezzar the king of the first beast kingdom of the lion.

I would also say another point here is everyone is all worked up about the possible resumption of animal sacrifice as is foretold in the prophets. However let's not put the cart before the horse. In order for the sacrifices to resume and to be done in accordance to Torah and prophets several things still have to happen. Namely the repentance of the unbelieving jews first and foremost before anything else can happen. They cannot make a sacrifice which the Lord will accept and at the same time reject the Lord, whom is Jesus, for if they do that then he will just reject them likewise and their sacrifices.

You err,
Nothing is said about sacrificing (slain animal) concerning Havels offerring. Nor do I recall any prophets foretelling of the resumption of slaughtering animals to cover sin. This would be tantamount to a mantle of deception.
Concerning a nazar, sorry but you are missinformed, and have not even cited scripture to witness to anything you have spoken of yourself.

"And Abel he too brought of the firstborn of his flocks and of their fattest, and the Lord turned to Abel and to his offering."

BibleGuy · Feb 24, 2018

louis said:

Is the Lord really concerned with animal sacrifices during the end times, so that He refers to the daily sacrifice being taken away in Daniel 8:11-12 & 9:27?
Anyone who believes this is still in kindergarten spiritually.
Look at Isaiah 28:18-20 to see what the daily sacrifice is.

Daniel 8:11 Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of the sanctuary was cast down.12 And an host was given him against the daily sacrifice by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practised, and prospered.

9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Isaiah 28:18 And your covenant with death shall be disannulled, and your agreement with hell shall not stand; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, then ye shall be trodden down by it.19 From the time that it goeth forth it shall take you: for morning by morning shall it pass over, by day and by night: and it shall be a vexation only to understand the report.
20 For the bed is shorter than that a man can stretch himself on it: and the covering narrower than that he can wrap himself in it.

Sure, the ANTICHRIST may be viewed, here, as taking away the sacrifices (in Da. 9).

But the TRUE CHRIST will restore the sacrifices, as in the days of old, as in former years (Mal. 3:1-4), in fulfillment of the Davidic Covenant which is as permanent as the day and night (Jer. 33).

regards...

7777pinacled · Feb 24, 2018

7777pinacled said:

"From the blood of Abel to the blood of Zechariah, who was killed between the altar and the sanctuary. Yes, I tell you, this generation will be held responsible for it all."

BibleGuy · Feb 24, 2018

garee said:

Will the veil be mended for the anti-christs?

Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that "spirit of antichrist", whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.1Jo 4:2

Has he come in the flesh? Will there be another demonstration?

2Corinthians 5:16 Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.

What does now define in the passage? How long is henthforth ?. What does no more mean?

Not sure what you're getting at....

Explain?

Studyman · Feb 24, 2018

BibleGuy said:

There it is, I was waiting for it, I knew it was coming. "The True Christ".

BibleGuy · Feb 24, 2018

garee said:

Hello,

You wrote: "The shadows had to do with ceremonial laws as away of preaching the gospel in the old testament in respect to the suffering of Christ beforehand ."

My response: No. The shadows functioned (present tense in Col. 2:17!) during the New Covenant era.

Paul, and Paul's 4 associates, and thousands of 1st century believers, even animal-sacrificing priests, all condoned sacrifices during the New-Covenant era (Ac. 6; Ac. 21).

Paul said ALL Scripture should correct and train our behavior (2 Ti. 3:16), thus including animal-sacrifice laws.

You wrote: "the period of time used as a parable came to end at the time of reformation."

My response: No. The restitution of all things is yet future, because Jesus is still in heaven (Ac. 3:21).

And, what will be restored at that time? SACRIFICES! (Mal. 3; Eze. 40-47; Dt. 30; Jer. 33; Zec. 14).

You wrote: "What is your view on the reformation?"

My response: The Protestant Reformation? It was a move in the right direction, but not a complete restitution of all things (per Ac. 3:21).

Or do you claim the restitution of all things has already occurred? Obviously not! Jesus is still in heaven (Ac. 3:21).

You wrote: "How did affect the outward flesh of a Jew?"

My response: The restitution of all things is yet future, because Jesus is still in heaven (Ac. 3:21).

You wrote: "Is there a continuation of the genealogy or was the Son of man born of the flesh which he says could not profit,the last ?"

My response: What genealogy?

You wrote: "Do we ignore the reformation in favor of the flesh of the Jewish people."

My response: The restitution of all things has not even occurred yet (Ac. 3:21), because Jesus is still in heaven.

And regarding Hebrews 9:9-10, the passage does not require that animal-sacrifice laws be terminated, but it merely emphasizes the new realities of redemption introduced by Christ.

After all, Jesus will RESTORE those very animal-sacrifice Levitical laws in the future (Mal. 3) in fulfillment of the Davidic Covenant which is a promise as permanent as the occurrence of day and night (Jer. 33:20-22).

So the animal-sacrifice laws are OBVIOUSLY not already permanently terminated by any reformation.

And the very writer of Hebrews twice affirms (Heb. 8; Heb. 10) that the New Covenant entails that TORAH (see also "TORAH" in Jer. 31) should be written upon our hearts so that we will obey it.

And what does Torah require? Animal sacrifices!

Thus, animal sacrifices and the New Covenant are consistent.

regards...

BibleGuy · Feb 24, 2018

garee said:

Hello,

You wrote: "The veil is rent. What does that mean to you?"

My response: It could represent lots of things, symbolically. Heb. 9:11-14 comes to mind.

You wrote: "There is nothing more coming the promise of the temporal land, it has been fulfilled ."

My response: No. Dt. 30:1-8 is NOT yet fulfilled. Thus, the 100% Torah-obedience (and our land-inheritance) prophesied in Dt. 30:1-8 is yet future, and thus the associated animal sacrifices are also yet future.

We Christians ALSO share in that same land inheritance just like Abraham (Gal. 3:29).

You wrote: "Are the Jews different than the gentiles because a Jew needs more than one appearing in the flesh recognizing them as antichrist?"

My response: Your wording is confused....can you try asking the question again?

Jews and Gentiles are jointly grafted into the Israel of God, by faith in the Messiah.

We jointly participate in the covenants between God and Israel.

We jointly grow in faithful obedience to the TORAH of the many covenants in which we participate, and this TORAH entails animal sacrifices.

Not sure what your asking...

regards...

BibleGuy · Feb 24, 2018

garee said:

You wrote: "One that is one outwardly or one that is born again as having the Spirit of Christ ?"

My response: Yes, we Christians are grafted into Israel, we have been born again and have the Spirit of Christ. Any other so-called "Jews" or "Israelites" will be cut off for their rejection of the Messiah (Rom. 11).

You wrote: "We walk by faith not after the flesh of any nation."

My response: Yes. Membership in Israel does not require a particular flesh or genealogy.

You wrote: "Not all Israel is born again Israel as an inward Jew that was renamed Christian ."

My response: Yes. But they can still self-identify as Jews, just like Paul continued to identify as Jewish.

You wrote: "Why glory in the outward flesh of a Jew ? Whats the hope?"

My response: The Jews, by flesh, have historically held a highly honorable position (Rom. 3), despite their ongoing widespread rejection of their own Messiah up until this present time, although trends suggest their widespread rejection is changing to a greater measure of openness and acceptance, from what I've heard over recent decades.

regards...

BibleGuy · Feb 24, 2018

garee said:

You wrote: "The time of reformation had come."

My response: The restitution of all things is yet future, because Jesus is still in heaven (Ac. 3:21).

The time of reformation (Heb. 9) may be taken to refer to the new work of Christ (in the HEAVENLY Holy of Holies) which gives us (in Christ) right-standing and eternal redemption in God's presence by virtue of the sacrifice of Christ Himself, but this does not require termination of ongoing animal sacrifices on EARTH.

And, the prophets guarantee the restoration of animal sacrifices (Dt. 30:1-8; Zec. 14; Jer. 33; Eze. 40-47; Mal. 3).

You wrote: "The period of time that those ceremonial feasts as shadows that were used as a parable became sight."

My response: The shadows ARE (present tense! Col. 2:17) still ongoing shadows which continue to function.

Thus, Paul and his 4 associates and THOUSANDS of 1st-century believers (and even animal-sacrificing priests who were disciples!) CONDONED animal sacrifices (Ac. 21; Ac. 6) DURING THE NEW-COVENANT ERA.

And, when we behold the fullness of a tree, does the shadow cease to exist? Of course not. The shadow CONTINUES to function as a shadow.

regards...

ANIMAL SACRIFICES to resume FOR US in the future!

Banned

Banned

Banned

Senior Member

Senior Member

Banned

Banned

Senior Member

Banned

Banned

Banned

Banned

Banned

Banned

Banned

Senior Member

Banned

Banned

Banned

Banned