KING JAMES VERSION BIBLE VS. MODERN ENGLISH BIBLES

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Dec 28, 2016
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What weak attempt to try and refute me.

First, by experience and from Scripture, God does not send peacevto the lost. That is part of our inheritance as believers. A lost person may find a type of peace, but it is not the peace of God! So no, I do not believe the same thing as you, Jesus died for those he called, not for those who do not believe!

Second, your late, corrupted TR manuscripts are the copies of copies of copies. Perhaps you didn’t know the KJV was translated from Hebrew and Grerk? Not even close to real inspiration in the KJV!
Peace I leave with you; my peace I give you. I do not give to you as the world gives. Do not let your hearts be troubled and do not be afraid..[John 14:27]

The only true peace we have comes from God. Unbelievers do not and can not possess this peace. You're so spot on with your Luke 2:14 reference.

#KeepuptheGOODwork
 

Lucy-Pevensie

Senior Member
Dec 20, 2017
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No worry if you allow the Holy Ghost to apply the standard Authorized Version to correct, reprove and rebuke all error.
Verily verily I say unto you-

I assure you and warn you in the strongest possible terms that it is not The Holy Spirit that has lead you into this wicked deception. I hope you will be set free and very soon.
 

Joseppi

Senior Member
Jan 4, 2018
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So, what do you make of what I said at the top of this post? That the KJV manuscripts, BECAUSE THEY WERE CORRUPT, was missing a sigma - one letter, in Luke 2:14, and it turned a statement of God giving peace to believers into universalism.

Really, you don't need to know anything. Despite Joseppi's claim that this is not about universalism, there is no other way you can take it, if you use the KJV. God gives peace to all men...

As for you Joseppi, you have contributed absolutely nothing, but strong and incorrect language about a Bible translation. If you feel a modern version is corrupted, feel free to compare it to the Greek, and we will see what we come up with.
Luke 2:14 Glory to God in the highest, and on earth peace, good will toward men.

The scripture above reveals that God is not a respecter of persons, and so his peace and good will is toward all men.

This is proven true by many scriptures.
1 Timothy 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

The false notion of universal salvation is not presented in Luke 2:14.
Note: the word “toward” reveals God’s peace and good will is toward all men.
That shows that it is left to every man to repent therefore, and believe the gospel.

But, remember that three modern bibles were shown corrupt in Luke 2:14 by their claim that at the birth of Jesus God favored some.
The scripture says, God is not a respecter of persons.

You need to cast out the false bibles lest they corrupt any reader with their falsehoods.
When men read them and realize the lies in them, what then?
The modern bibles are designed to undermine the faith of the saints at the time of the end.
What you might suppose diesn’t matter, does matter to God and all who love and seek the truth, and nothing but the truth.
Take heed.
 
Dec 28, 2016
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Verily verily I say unto you-

I assure you and warn you in the strongest possible terms that it is not The Holy Spirit that has lead you into this wicked deception. I hope you will be set free and very soon.
He said "If you allow the Holy Ghost..." Since when does He need us to allow Him to do anything?? Ppl have a very weak 'god' in view when they speak about God. God does as He pleases[Psalm 115:3] and does not seek or ask our permission.
 
Jan 25, 2018
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Or, perhaps you are both universalists, and you believe everyone is saved, because of Jesus birth, rather than those who believe? My mom is a universalist. She wants everyone to be saved, even if they don't believe, or hate Jesus. I asked her, "So you want to be in heaven with unrepentant murderers or rapists?" She walked away stunned at the implications of this.
I have realized this kind of logical consequence of faith.
Sadly people hold on to certain theological ideas because they appear harsh, but are
actually dealing with reality.

It is a similar idea if you say once you come to faith, you are saved and acceptable
for eternity, no matter how evil a road you later walk. Purity of the heart is the cornerstone
of the cross and cleansing and forgiveness. We live such an impure view of life and others,
rather than seeing things for what they truly are.

So latching on to one translation of scripture, is security in a way, except like all things
language and meaning of words change in cultures, so a translation needs to keep up with
this. I cannot now read the King James because thous and thees, confuse me, and grammer
use. Faith has also become so intellectual, and not real in resolving deep emotional trauma and
hurt, it is easier to retreat into words than face cleansing, love and purity. Knowing our weaknesses
is the same as knowledge of good and evil, but we can choose the good, because we know
tangibly Christ death and love for us, it empowers all that we are. We are emotional beings, and
we need to wake up to the fact, God, Jesus addresses us at this level, because He is God.

And His promise is we are safe, and the Holy Spirit can and will heal, and restore and make
whole, setting the captive free. Yes it takes faith, and yes it hurts, and yes our lives are
on the line, but that is what Jesus called us to do, to trust Him and walk in the love that
flows from the cross, not as a nice sentiment, but this is eternal life.
 
Nov 23, 2013
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Jacob have I loved, Esau I hated.[Romans 9:13]

Your lack of exegetical skills show with EVERY post you post.
Mmmm God didn't hate Esau the person, what a liar God would be if he did so. That verse is "the word hidden within the word". Esau - first born represents the flesh, Jacob - second born reprents being born again of the spirit.

God doesn't hate people and he doesn't contradict himself. If he says he is no respecter of persons in one place then he's not a respecter of persons in another place.

Can you see why the Jews absolutely hated Jesus for the things he said i.e. "Eat my flesh..." Jesus was giving them the gospel in code words and they absolutely hated him for it.

The letter (the written word) killeth, but the spiirit (word within the word) bringeth life.
 
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Nov 23, 2013
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Not only do the Majority of all existing Greek manuscripts read as does the KJB - "good will to men" - but so also do mss. E, G, H, K, L, M, P, S, U, V, Gamma, Delta, Theta, Lambda, Xi, Psi, Y, Omega and many others.

It is also the reading found in the Coptic Boharic, Armenian, Ethiopic, Georgian and Slavonic ancient versions as well as the Syriac Harclean and Sinaitic. The Syriac Peshitta is messed up here and reads "good HOPE to men", and so reads Lamsa's translation of the Syriac Peshitta.

It is quoted as "good will to men" by such early church writers as Eusebius, Basil, Gregory-Nazianzus, Didymus, Epiphanius, Chrysostom, Severian, Cyril, Procius, Theodotus and Theodoret.

First of all, there are by nature no "men of good will". We are all rebels by birth, haters of God who are dead in our sins and trespasses. "There is none that doeth good, no, not one", "There is none that seeketh after God", "There is none righteous, no, not one" - Romans chapter three.

God's good will is extended toward men in that He provided a Saviour from sin and hell, and for those who receive Him there is peace right now on this earth even in the midst of all the turmoil and difficulties.

"For He is our peace...so making peace...and came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh." Ephesians 2:14-17.

"Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid." John 14:27.

"Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ." Romans 5:1.

The King James Bible is correct - as always. The NASB, NIV, ISV, ESV, NET all had to totally paraphrase the text they were following in order to avoid the obvious theological error it promotes. The Sinaiticus/Vaticanus copies were seen to be deficient and corrected by later scribes.
What does it matter what any ancient writtings say, and who cares if 500 manuscripts line up and ONE is different, does 500 wrongs make a right? Besides is it not common sense that Christ brought peace and good will to ALL men and not just the "saved" people... i'ts beyond me why anybody would even doubt the statement.
 

Angela53510

Senior Member
Jan 24, 2011
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John 14:6

Not only do the Majority of all existing Greek manuscripts read as does the KJB - "good will to men" - but so also do mss. E, G, H, K, L, M, P, S, U, V, Gamma, Delta, Theta, Lambda, Xi, Psi, Y, Omega and many others.


It is also the reading found in the Coptic Boharic, Armenian, Ethiopic, Georgian and Slavonic ancient versions as well as the Syriac Harclean and Sinaitic. The Syriac Peshitta is messed up here and reads "good HOPE to men", and so reads Lamsa's translation of the Syriac Peshitta.

It is quoted as "good will to men" by such early church writers as Eusebius, Basil, Gregory-Nazianzus, Didymus, Epiphanius, Chrysostom, Severian, Cyril, Procius, Theodotus and Theodoret.

First of all, there are by nature no "men of good will". We are all rebels by birth, haters of God who are dead in our sins and trespasses. "There is none that doeth good, no, not one", "There is none that seeketh after God", "There is none righteous, no, not one" - Romans chapter three.

God's good will is extended toward men in that He provided a Saviour from sin and hell, and for those who receive Him there is peace right now on this earth even in the midst of all the turmoil and difficulties.

"For He is our peace...so making peace...and came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh." Ephesians 2:14-17.

"Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid." John 14:27.

"Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ." Romans 5:1.

The King James Bible is correct - as always. The NASB, NIV, ISV, ESV, NET all had to totally paraphrase the text they were following in order to avoid the obvious theological error it promotes. The Sinaiticus/Vaticanus copies were seen to be deficient and corrected by later scribes.

Now this is a decent argument and I appreciate you taking the time to look at the history of the manuscripts, although you have a few things wrong.

First, you don't have a source. In fact, you have manuscripts that do not have the KJV version eudokia with no sigma, of Luke 2:14, but you have also missed others that do have it.

Second, my source is The Greek New Testament 4th Edition by United Bible Societies, just so you know.

Third, the manuscripts below contain the preferred reading, which is eudokias, with the sigma at the end of the word, making it the genitive. God's favour is not the subject of the sentence as in the variation the later texts use, but it is something that could be said to be the OF God (genitive). In other words, the pleasure OF God, is on those people who believe, not some nebulous potential to believe. Otherwise, you have to throw out Scriptures like Eph. 1:4-5, that God not only predestined us, and predestined us before the foundation of the world.

"[FONT=&quot]For He chose us in Him, before the foundation of the world, to be holy and blameless in His sight. In love [/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT][FONT=&quot]5 He predestined us to be adopted through Jesus Christ for Himself, according to His favor and will,[/FONT]" Eph. 1:4-5

In other words, God knew long before the angels sang this at the birth of Christ, who had been chosen and predestined before the foundation of the world. His pleasure was on those he had chosen, not a lot of miserable sinners who would never be saved!

א A B D W it vig cop and early church fathers are Origen, Cyril Jerusalem, Gaudentius, Jerome, Augustie, Irenaeus, Athanasius, Hilary Ambrosiaster. Keep in mind "the most manuscripts," especially if they are just more of the same Byzantine tradition, does not make it the best reading!

UBS says that eudoias is the better reading, and in fact it is CERTAIN that eudokias in the Genitive is the right reading. Why, besides the fact that that eudokia, in the nominative is theologically incorrect? Well, because the better reading comes out of the earlier manuscripts, because there was less time for scribes to drop off a sigma, and so forth.

Eudokias

א aleph IV - (century)
B IV
D IV
W IV

Eudokia

E V!
G !X
H VI
K IX
L VIII
M ?
P IX
S ?
U ?
V ?
Gamma ?
Delta IX
Theta IX
Lambda ?
Xi
Psi IX/X
Y VI
Omega ?

Some of the above texts are so insignificant, they do not even rate a mention in the UBS Unical manuscripts. In any case, the earliest manuscripts and the most reliable, dating back to the 4th Century AD, all use eudokias, or the Genitive

The eudokia in the nominative, are in mostly 9th and 10th century texts, with three 6th century manuscripts.

So, which is better, a manuscript dated to less than 400 years after Jesus died,and after the book of Luke was actually written, or add 2 to 5 more centuries, more time for all those bored scribes to make copying mistakes, handed down? It only really takes one scribe leaving off the sigma and then it being copied over and over, for it to be considered a copyist mistake, which is probably the case for all those much later manuscripts. In addition, if the 4th manuscripts have a sigma, they certainly did not add it to 9th and 10th manuscripts that would not even exist for 5 or 6 centuries!

Finally, I do agree with you, that there are no "men of good will." We are certainly all sinners, and all born rebels. BUT, that is not what the other versions say!

“Glory to God in the highest,
And on earth peace among men with whom He is pleased." NASB

"“Glory to God in the highest,
and on earth peace among those with whom he is pleased!” ESV

“Glory to God in the highest heaven,
and on earth peace to those on whom his favor rests.” NIV

"“Glory to God in the highest,
and on earth peace among people with whom he is pleased!” NET
[FONT=&quot]
Eudokia (feminine noun) has nothing to do with "good will" at all. It has to do with God's favour, or in whom he is pleased.

Bauer (BDAG)
1. State or condition of being kindly disposed
2. state of condition of being favoured, favour, good pleasure. It refers to people on whom divine favour rests.
3. desire, usually directed towards something that causes satisfaction or favour, wish, desire.

#2 is obviously what is being said in this verse, since God himself is pleased with these people, or favours them.

Other uses of this, include:

[/FONT]
"he predestined us for adoption to sonship through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will—" Eph. 1:5

"And a voice came from heaven, “You are my beloved Son; with you I am well pleased.” Mark 1:11 (God to Jesus after his baptism!)
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]


So, in fact, God's favour or pleasure rests solely on those he has predestined. Surely, even the shepherds who heard the angels sing this, understood this! Israel had been God's chosen people, and now, with the advent of the birth of Christ, all those God chose before the foundation of the world would receive the favour of a sovereign God, who had chosen a new people - believers in Christ.

Of course, this is a different theological debate. The fact is, the mistranslation contained in the later manuscripts, point directly to universalism.

"Glory to God in the highest, and on earth peace, good will toward men." Luke 2:14 KJV[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]

There is no good will, or more correctly "favour" or "pleasure" with sinners. You have actually contradicted yourself, saying we are all born sinners, rebels, (and I agree!) and yet even though we are all wicked sinners, God bestowed his favour on the whole world? He was pleased with evil sinners? The only way that can happen, is that Jesus death on the cross made everyone in the world saved, regardless of what they believe, so he is pleased with them!

You can't have God being pleased with sinners. Either the whole world has to be saved, and therefore Christianity is universalism, or God only bestows his favour, or is pleased with those who believe in Christ. So which is it?

Therefore, the certain manuscript evidence, and the theological implications of universalism, indicate that the reading is definitely eudokias, in the genitive, and there is peace on earth among those whom [God] is pleased. Believers only!
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
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There is no good will, or more correctly "favour" or "pleasure" with sinners. You have actually contradicted yourself, saying we are all born sinners, rebels, (and I agree!) and yet even though we are all wicked sinners, God bestowed his favour on the whole world? He was pleased with evil sinners? The only way that can happen, is that Jesus death on the cross made everyone in the world saved, regardless of what they believe, so he is pleased with them!

You can't have God being pleased with sinners. Either the whole world has to be saved, and therefore Christianity is universalism, or God only bestows his favour, or is pleased with those who believe in Christ. So which is it?

Therefore, the certain manuscript evidence, and the theological implications of universalism, indicate that the reading is definitely eudokias, in the genitive, and there is peace on earth among those whom [God] is pleased. Believers only!
God showed fabour to the whole world through sending His only begotten Son to die for the whole world. You do not believe this because your theology is messed up through the RCC priests Jerome and Calvin.
 
Nov 23, 2013
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What weak attempt to try and refute me.

First, by experience and from Scripture, God does not send peacevto the lost. That is part of our inheritance as believers. A lost person may find a type of peace, but it is not the peace of God! So no, I do not believe the same thing as you, Jesus died for those he called, not for those who do not believe!

Second, your late, corrupted TR manuscripts are the copies of copies of copies. Perhaps you didn’t know the KJV was translated from Hebrew and Grerk? Not even close to real inspiration in the KJV!
Maybe this doesn't come across in the Greek very well, but it comes across lound and clear in KJV archaic English lol. Those verses ARE NOT talking about the peace that a born again believer gets at salvation, it's talking about peace and good will offered to ALL people because God sent a remedy to their hopeless condition.

In all seriousness and respect to you, do you really believe those verses are talking about the peace of the believer?
 
Dec 28, 2016
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Mmmm God didn't hate Esau the person, what a liar God would be if he did so. That verse is "the word hidden within the word". Esau - first born represents the flesh, Jacob - second born reprents being born again of the spirit.

God doesn't hate people and he doesn't contradict himself. If he says he is no respecter of persons in one place then he's not a respecter of persons in another place.

Can you see why the Jews absolutely hated Jesus for the things he said i.e. "Eat my flesh..." Jesus was giving them the gospel in code words and they absolutely hated him for it.

The letter (the written word) killeth, but the spiirit (word within the word) bringeth life.
God does indeed hate ppl. Proverbs 6:16-19 and Romans 9:13 easily show it.

Does God hate Satan? Or does He just love him a little less than He does us?
 
Nov 23, 2013
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Verily verily I say unto you-

I assure you and warn you in the strongest possible terms that it is not The Holy Spirit that has lead you into this wicked deception. I hope you will be set free and very soon.
How does one know which spirit is leading them?
 
Nov 23, 2013
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God does indeed hate ppl. Proverbs 6:16-19 and Romans 9:13 easily show it.

Does God hate Satan? Or does He just love him a little less than He does us?
I don't know af any verse that says God hates Satan, geez he created him to do exactly what he does. :)


Edit: Are you saying these verses prove God hates some people?

[h=1]Proverbs 6:16-19 King James Version (KJV)[/h]16 These six things doth the Lord hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him:
17 A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood,
18 An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief,
19 A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren.
 
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trofimus

Senior Member
Aug 17, 2015
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Can it be translated:

"Glory to God in high, peace on Earth, [because God has] a pleasure in people."

?

I.e. splitting the sentence into three parts.

Δόξα ἐν ὑψίστοις Θεῷ, καὶ ἐπὶ γῆς εἰρήνη, ἐν ἀνθρώποις εὐδοκίας.
 
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Nov 23, 2013
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Can it be translated:

"Glory to God in high, peace on Earth, [because God has] a pleasure in people."

?

I.e. splitting the sentence into three parts.

Δόξα ἐν ὑψίστοις Θεῷ, καὶ ἐπὶ γῆς εἰρήνη, ἐν ἀνθρώποις εὐδοκίας.
I wouldn't know... it's Greek to me. :)
 
Nov 23, 2013
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Luke 2:10 King James Version (KJV)

10 And the angel said unto them, Fear not: for, behold, I bring you good tidings of great joy, which shall be to all people.

Luke 2:10 New International Version (NIV)

10 But the angel said to them, “Do not be afraid. I bring you good news that will cause great joy for all the people.

Same gospel in both versions... Good news to all, the savior has come to save you from your sins.




Gospel 1 - KJV Gospel

Luke 2:14 King James Version (KJV)


14 Glory to God in the highest, and on earth peace, good will toward men.

The good news (gospel) is that God sent his Son to save all men.


Gospel 2 - NIV Gospel

Luke 2:14 New International Version (NIV)

14 “Glory to God in the highest heaven,
and on earth peace to those on whom his favor rests.”


New International Version (NIV)


The good news (gospel) is that God sent his son to give his peace to the ones God likes.

Verse 14 in the KJV lines up with verse 10 in both the KJV and NIV.
Verse 14 in the NIV does not line up with verse 10 in either the KJV or NIV.

NIV inserts a NEW doctrine where Jesus only came to the ones that God has favor on and in doing so contradicts it's own statement made in verse 10... it is no longer good news for all people, it's only good news to God's elect.

 
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Dec 28, 2016
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I don't know af any verse that says God hates Satan, geez he created him to do exactly what he does. :)


Edit: Are you saying these verses prove God hates some people?

Proverbs 6:16-19 King James Version (KJV)

16 These six things doth the Lord hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him:
17 A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood,
18 An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief,
19 A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren.
Look at verse 19. He hates liars and those who cause division. Those are actual ppl.