-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
A
[FONT="]One of the exegetical concerns I had in my seminary days had to do with dispensational treatment of the bema in Ro.14:10 and 2Cor.5:10. Dwight Pentecost is typical when, after quoting a few scholars (and not surveying biblical usage--his usual method), he draws this conclusion about the bema, "Thus, associated with this word are the ideas of prominence, dignity, authority, honor, and reward rather than the idea of justice and judgment" (p.220).[/FONT]
[FONT="]The biblical usage of the word bema will not support this conclusion. Here are all the references:[/FONT]
[FONT="]Mt.27:19, Pilate is sitting on the bema when he offers the Jews an alternative, should he release Barabbas or Jesus; they chose Barabbas and so Pilate releases him and has Jesus flogged and turns Him over for crucifixion.[/FONT]
[FONT="]Jo.19:13 is the parallel account to the above. Notice in both of these cases that it is while seated on the bema that Pilate renders a judicial verdict that he intends to be anything but an awards ceremony.[/FONT]
[FONT="]Ac.7:5 conveys none of the ideas Pentecost claims to be associated with this word. It speaks of a plot of ground.[/FONT]
[FONT="]Ac.12:21 speaks of Herod on his bema delivering a public address at a time when the people of Tyre and Sidon were hoping to have an audience with him. There are no rewards in view, rather the people were hoping that they would publicly make their peace with him and presumably not have their food supply cut off.[/FONT]
[FONT="]Ac.18:12, 16, 17 is rather interesting in that this account occurs in Corinth (cf. 2Cor.5:10). Note that the Jews dragged Paul before the bema hoping that Gallio would render a judgment against Paul. Again, rewards are not in view; a legal decision is.[/FONT]
[FONT="]Ac.25:6,10,17, here again the bema occurs in a context of a trial--a place where a legal judgment is to be pronounced; it is not an awards ceremony.[/FONT]
[FONT="]Ro.14:10 speaks of us all standing before God's bema. This is in a context where Paul is telling his readers not to condemn the practices of others in areas that are indifferent. Again the context is not one of giving awards, but of condemning conduct.[/FONT]
[FONT="]2Cor.5:10 says "For we must all appear before the bema of Christ, that each one may receive what is due him for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad." The most natural reading of this term in its context is that it is not only awards that are in view. That which is "due" may be either positive or negative, i.e., rewards or punishment.[/FONT]
[FONT="]The scholars Pentecost cites refer to non-biblical usage that refer to a place for rendering discipline, for addressing the troops, and for the giving of awards. All of this gives us part of the semantic range of the word bema. What Pentecost should have done was to trace this semantic range in detail (biblical and extra-biblical usage) and then ask, which of these meanings does Paul have in mind when he uses the term to refer to an eschatological bema? That is determined by the contexts in which Paul uses the terms and as I've noted above, in neither place (Ro.14:10; 2Cor.5:10) is an awards ceremony exclusively in view. This type of sloppy exegesis on the part of Pentecost and other dispensationalists caused me grave concern and contributed to the erosion of my confidence in their system.[/FONT]
One does not have to see what others have written or said to discover Bible truth. So did you not personally study the Bible and discover that there are indeed dispensations within the Bible, and that the final dispensation will be the "dispensation of the fulness of times"? The dispensations generally correspond to the covenants.
What we see in this thread is that men are avoiding the Scriptures themselves and criticizing what other men have written or said or not said. Now that is a sloppy way to discover Bible truth.
What we see in this thread is that men are avoiding the Scriptures themselves and criticizing what other men have written or said or not said. Now that is a sloppy way to discover Bible truth.
A
Your assumptions causes you to read scriptures through a filter. If you don't address the filter and the falsehood of it, then the discussion of scriptures accomplishs very little because all the positions claim to have scriptural support.
The question is when you read the Bible do you see TWO DIFFERENT GOSPELS and plans to save? One for Gentiles and one for Jews? Or is both grafted into the same olive tree? Save by the same spirit?
Next point would be is the promise of Abraham,made to the seeds or the Seed?
The question is when you read the Bible do you see TWO DIFFERENT GOSPELS and plans to save? One for Gentiles and one for Jews? Or is both grafted into the same olive tree? Save by the same spirit?
Next point would be is the promise of Abraham,made to the seeds or the Seed?
A
Wanna discuss these scriptures?
It shows how the Bible uses 1000 years as figurative and symbolic.
.it also shows that the promise of Abraham is not to all of Israel and the seeds but the Seed, Christ Jesus.
I see no need to reinvent the wheel or engage in fruitless debates with people who would rather lecture then actually engage in conversation.
Especially when ad hominem attacks are embedded in most of the responses.
It shows how the Bible uses 1000 years as figurative and symbolic.
.it also shows that the promise of Abraham is not to all of Israel and the seeds but the Seed, Christ Jesus.
I see no need to reinvent the wheel or engage in fruitless debates with people who would rather lecture then actually engage in conversation.
Especially when ad hominem attacks are embedded in most of the responses.
Last edited by a moderator:
Amen generations plural . Two beginnings created in the beginning.One that will go up in smoke the temporal corrupted on the last day, the other on the same last day that will appear as eternal .
But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.But the day (same day)of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.2Pe 3:8
Interesting looking at the use of the word day used to represent a unknow. It does not say the Lord will come as a thief in the night in over a thousand literal years period. But does confirm the twinkling of the eye on the last day . ,
But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.But the day (same day)of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.2Pe 3:8
Interesting looking at the use of the word day used to represent a unknow. It does not say the Lord will come as a thief in the night in over a thousand literal years period. But does confirm the twinkling of the eye on the last day . ,
Ariel may I ask, do you believe that Jesus was literally killed on earth and physically resurrected?
if you believe that, is it such a stretch to believe that his reign as king will be literal and physical on the earth as well?
The sacrificial lamb came to (what we call) the real world. The King will come to the real world too. The scriptures are not all metaphor and allusion. His love for us isn't symbolic. It's real.
if you believe that, is it such a stretch to believe that his reign as king will be literal and physical on the earth as well?
The sacrificial lamb came to (what we call) the real world. The King will come to the real world too. The scriptures are not all metaphor and allusion. His love for us isn't symbolic. It's real.
What if spiritual world is more real than physical world, not less?
In such a case we do not have to insist on fulfillement in the lesser, physical reality.
Its like a promise of a transportation, you await you will get a car and voila! you are given teleportation. Will you complain "wait, it must be a car"?
In such a case we do not have to insist on fulfillement in the lesser, physical reality.
Its like a promise of a transportation, you await you will get a car and voila! you are given teleportation. Will you complain "wait, it must be a car"?