Are women allowed to Preach?

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Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
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Women are not allowed to preach in the church or allowed to hold office such as that of deacon and elder. They can preach/proclaim the gospel to their neighbors, other women their children as of such this is not a problem it is just that of being in the church is in where the problem lies.
It's not my authority this is what the word of God has to say. The problem is people do not want to accept this idea because of the time that we are living and the time of when the Bible was written. That is to say two different eras and so now this does not apply to us.
You're only the fourth person to come into this thread and start in on what "the word of God has to say".

Have you read any of the thread, or just the title? Have you considered any of the arguments from those who think differently or, like the others, will you just throw out-of-context Bible verses at people?
 
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loyaldisciple

Guest
Do you concede that the verses do not say that a woman may not "preach"?

Or are you going to double down on your misquotation of Scripture while claiming to believe exactly what it says?
I did not misquote any scripture. It is impossible to misquote scripture when it is given to you exactly word for word, as I did many times. Here it is again for you. By me then later saying that a woman is not to preach within the church is a logical summation. as obviously one cannot preach if they cannot speak. That is a correct summation of the scripture, not a quote. The quote is when providing the scripture itself, which is exactly as it appears in the Bible. It is amazing how many get so upset when the true words of the Bible are given to them and they don't wish to go by them.

1 Corinthians 14:34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but [they are commanded] to be under obedience, as also saith the law.

1 Corinthians 14:35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
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he is saying women are not allowed to speak when they are inside a church, you know such as when the prophet Anna was speaking in the Temple when Joseph and Mary dedicated Him. I sure hope the dedication of the Christ was legitimate being as a women was speaking when it was happening. lol
I'm aware of what he's saying. However, he claimed, in as many words, to believe exactly what the Bible says, and yet he consistently misrepresents it.
 
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AuntieAnt

Guest
This is not language from the world, this is what the Bible has to say and yet all kinds of churches abuse this and say a woman can be a pastor, she can be a deacon, she can be a elder, but if they are going to listen to what the Bible has to say then they have to admit they are wrong but they will not listen to what the Bible has to say and yet they will continue on with their on set of ideas and beliefs which are contrary from the Bible God's word. I have clearly stated that women can proclaim the gospel but just not in a church.

By no means am I degrading women they are many aspects that a women can do that a man cannot do.
Young man, (you're only a few yrs older than my son) :) ~ I'm not going to contend in circles with you, dear. I just looked over your posts in another thread, this one in particular:

http://christianchat.com/bible-disc...nnial-kingdom-not-literal-21.html#post3375323

You are looking for a future spiritual body and new earth. Yet Jesus said we are spiritual now because of His Spirit in us. Your quote says, "We will not be in the flesh." We're not in the flesh now, young brother.

Carl, we were crucified with Christ, nevertheless we live; yet not "we" as in flesh/carnal/intellect, but Christ who actually, literally,
IN TRUTH, LIVES IN US. The life we now live in this fleshly shell we live by the faith of Jesus Christ, the Son of God, Who loves us and gave Himself for us.

Do you understand that, Carl? You died when Jesus died. You were resurrected spiritually when you came to the truth that Jesus Christ is Lord and Savior.

Old Carl is gone. Jesus doesn't relate to him anymore. He relates to His Holy Spirit in You. You're no longer a flesh man to God. You are a spiritual being in God's eyes.
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
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I did not misquote any scripture. It is impossible to misquote scripture when it is given to you exactly word for word, as I did many times. Here it is again for you. By me then later saying that a woman is not to preach within the church is a logical summation. as obviously one cannot preach if they cannot speak. That is a correct summation of the scripture, not a quote. The quote is when providing the scripture itself, which is exactly as it appears in the Bible. It is amazing how many get so upset when the true words of the Bible are given to them and they don't wish to go by them.

1 Corinthians 14:34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but [they are commanded] to be under obedience, as also saith the law.

1 Corinthians 14:35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.
You just don't seem to get this very simple concept:

"PREACH" is not the same as "SPEAK"

When you stop misrepresenting what the Scripture says, while claiming to believe exactly what it says, then perhaps we will get somewhere in this. Until then your bluster and repetition will be meaningless.

Maybe you should just admit that you don't believe exactly what the Scripture says. It seems closer to the truth anyway.
 

carl11

Senior Member
Oct 20, 2017
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You're only the fourth person to come into this thread and start in on what "the word of God has to say".

Have you read any of the thread, or just the title? Have you considered any of the arguments from those who think differently or, like the others, will you just throw out-of-context Bible verses at people?
oh I've read the title and some of the earlier post and then the rest I can surmise. Unfortunately I do not have enough time to sift through 80 some pages. One of the main reason people think that for example a women can be a deacon is the word deaconess. Now I must admit I did struggle with this and thought you know maybe they have a point. But as I began to really look into this matter I became thoroughly convinced that no they can not be a deacon, much less a pastor or a elder. Again let me say this that I am not saying they cannot preach / proclaim God's word it is just a matter of the fact of what principles God has laid down in his book.
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
24,822
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oh I've read the title and some of the earlier post and then the rest I can surmise. Unfortunately I do not have enough time to sift through 80 some pages. One of the main reason people think that for example a women can be a deacon is the word deaconess. Now I must admit I did struggle with this and thought you know maybe they have a point. But as I began to really look into this matter I became thoroughly convinced that no they can not be a deacon, much less a pastor or a elder. Again let me say this that I am not saying they cannot preach / proclaim God's word it is just a matter of the fact of what principles God has laid down in his book.
Thanks for the intelligent response. I too really looked into this matter and came to a different conclusion.
 

Lighthearted

Senior Member
Oct 17, 2016
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I will get behind as many pulpets in churches, tents, and cleared fields where He leads with the others He is gathering for a global revival to testify, to teach, and to preach for His people who have fallen away that He wants back at His table,that He wants all of His people to stop bickering over doctrine and focus on His gospel and learning to love one another as He loves us. The Pharisees thought they were so right in what they believed, but Jesus showed them a better way too... And to do it with love.
 

1ofthem

Senior Member
Mar 30, 2016
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I believe there is many men and women calling themselves preacher when God has not called them. Seems like most people want to be the teacher or the preacher and not many want to learn or listen....:confused:

God's got a calling for each persons life and not everyone is called to be a preacher...just saying
 
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loyaldisciple

Guest
I have a question. God says not to lie, correct? So let me ask you, are you and the previous member Pontiac the same person? Are you really 93 yrs old? Are you being honest with us?

The reason I ask is because Pontiac requested his account be deactivated a week ago and you joined right after he left. You use the exact same style of writing with the redundant ellipsis (...) between fragmented sentences. And you're posting almost word for word the comments he made and throw the word feminism around like Pontiac, too. Your main intent day after day, day & night on this site has been to preach AT women and condemn them, as was his intent.

Are you Pontiac? :confused:
I don't know anybody named Pontiac and I have not condemned any women. I've only posted scripture exactly as it appears within the BIBLE. If you don't like the scripture then you don't have to go by it. People have free will to either go by God's word or do as they choose.
 
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loyaldisciple

Guest
You just don't seem to get this very simple concept:

"PREACH" is not the same as "SPEAK"

When you stop misrepresenting what the Scripture says, while claiming to believe exactly what it says, then perhaps we will get somewhere in this. Until then your bluster and repetition will be meaningless.

Maybe you should just admit that you don't believe exactly what the Scripture says. It seems closer to the truth anyway.
How dense can one truly be is the question here. Obviously if one cannot speak, then they cannot preach. This is nothing more than common sense. Why do you keep trolling about this ?
 

Lighthearted

Senior Member
Oct 17, 2016
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I believe there is many men and women calling themselves preacher when God has not called them. Seems like most people want to be the teacher or the preacher and not many want to learn or listen....:confused:

God's got a calling for each persons life and not everyone is called to be a preacher...just saying
I'm not one that likes to get in front of a crowd by any means...but He has certainly called me out of my comfort zone to do so. I can only hope that it is not me but Him that takes over with the Holy Spirit. There are many things I must talk about that I'm very uncomfortable with sharing...but I know beyond a doubt that it is His will.
It doesn't really matter...there will always be those who doubt, but God has the power to move in those hearts that He wishes to receive the message.
 

1ofthem

Senior Member
Mar 30, 2016
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I'm not one that likes to get in front of a crowd by any means...but He has certainly called me out of my comfort zone to do so. I can only hope that it is not me but Him that takes over with the Holy Spirit. There are many things I must talk about that I'm very uncomfortable with sharing...but I know beyond a doubt that it is His will.
It doesn't really matter...there will always be those who doubt, but God has the power to move in those hearts that He wishes to receive the message.
I didn't see your previous post before I posted so my post wasn't in regards to yours. I was just stating some things that I have seen.

God has led me to testify in church many times. People told me I should be a preacher, but God never called me for that so I didn't listen to them. I've seen it done a lot in some of the churches where I have been. People tell other people that they should preach or that they think God is calling them. Puff that person right up and then that person jumps out thinking they are a preacher and end up failing horribly.

I do agree with you that we all should know what God has called us to do and do what he says to do.
 
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AuntieAnt

Guest
I don't know anybody named Pontiac and I have not condemned any women. I've only posted scripture exactly as it appears within the BIBLE. If you don't like the scripture then you don't have to go by it. People have free will to either go by God's word or do as they choose.
Ok, I guess I got confused because of this harsh anti-woman post:
http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/130017-women-allowed-preach-23.html#post3515370

Looking so much like this harsh anti-woman post:
http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/130017-women-allowed-preach-35.html#post3517243

And then your style of writing changing (with the ellipses thing ... ) after someone suspected you were Pontiac.
 
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loyaldisciple

Guest
Ok, I guess I got confused because of this harsh anti-woman post:
http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/130017-women-allowed-preach-23.html#post3515370

Looking so much like this harsh anti-woman post:
http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/130017-women-allowed-preach-35.html#post3517243

And then your style of writing changing (with the ellipses thing ... ) after someone suspected you were Pontiac.
Suspicious minds rule the earth Madam. I am not the only one that tells it like it is. I have seen about 5 or 6 other men on here doing that as well and it looks like another one just joined. Rather amazing that out of about 30 people on this thread in the last week or so only about half a dozen of them truly wish to obey what God has said.
 

1ofthem

Senior Member
Mar 30, 2016
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I had a Pontiac once it was an awful car.... Does that count for anything? lol:p
 

HeraldtheNews

Well-known member
Apr 26, 2012
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Speaking of the Bible-- this isn't just to prove a point, or argue, just presenting the Bible:
This is a direct quote from Biblegateway.com (I know direct copies are not really allowed, but, I just don't have the time to make it legally correct at the moment)

[FONT=&quot]They said to the woman, “We no longer believe just because of what you said; now we have heard for ourselves, and we know that this man really is the Savior of the world.” (John 4; NIV; biblegateway.com)

[/FONT]
The whole town came out to see Jesus, so she must have done a pretty good job preaching!!

[FONT=&quot] “Woman,” Jesus replied, “believe me, a time is coming when you will worship the Father neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem. 22 You Samaritans worship what you do not know; we worship what we do know, for salvation is from the Jews. 23 Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in the Spirit and in truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks. 24 God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in the Spirit and in truth.”[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]25 The woman said, “I know that Messiah” (called Christ) “is coming. When he comes, he will explain everything to us.”[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]26 Then Jesus declared, “I, the one speaking to you—I am he.”

"Then, leaving her water jar, the woman went back to the town and said to the people, 29 “Come, see a man who told me everything I ever did. Could this be the Messiah?” 30 They came out of the town and made their way toward him."

[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot] Many of the Samaritans from that town believed in him because of the woman’s testimony, “He told me everything I ever did.” 40 So when the Samaritans came to him, they urged him to stay with them, and he stayed two days. 41 And because of his words many more became believers.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]42 They said to the woman, “We no longer believe just because of what you said; now we have heard for ourselves, and we know that this man really is the Savior of the world.”[/FONT]
 
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loyaldisciple

Guest

Speaking of the Bible-- this isn't just to prove a point, or argue, just presenting the Bible:
This is a direct quote from Biblegateway.com (I know direct copies are not really allowed, but, I just don't have the time to make it legally correct at the moment)

They said to the woman, “We no longer believe just because of what you said; now we have heard for ourselves, and we know that this man really is the Savior of the world.” (John 4; NIV; biblegateway.com)

The whole town came out to see Jesus, so she must have done a pretty good job preaching!!

“Woman,” Jesus replied, “believe me, a time is coming when you will worship the Father neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem. 22 You Samaritans worship what you do not know; we worship what we do know, for salvation is from the Jews. 23 Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in the Spirit and in truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks. 24 God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in the Spirit and in truth.”
25 The woman said, “I know that Messiah” (called Christ) “is coming. When he comes, he will explain everything to us.”
26 Then Jesus declared, “I, the one speaking to you—I am he.”

"Then, leaving her water jar, the woman went back to the town and said to the people, 29 “Come, see a man who told me everything I ever did. Could this be the Messiah?” 30 They came out of the town and made their way toward him."


Many of the Samaritans from that town believed in him because of the woman’s testimony, “He told me everything I ever did.” 40 So when the Samaritans came to him, they urged him to stay with them, and he stayed two days. 41 And because of his words many more became believers.
42 They said to the woman, “We no longer believe just because of what you said; now we have heard for ourselves, and we know that this man really is the Savior of the world.”
Not a single person on here has denied that a woman can speak with the Spirit within her and help others unto Him. Again, that has zero to do with God's command that a woman not preach/speak inside of a church.
 

Angela53510

Senior Member
Jan 24, 2011
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He did. The masculine gender of subject predicate nominative τις governs it's corresponding verbs. ἐπιγινωσκέτω is τις corresponding verb in the clause.

1Cor 14:37 ​ει τις δοκει προφητης ειναι η πνευματικος επιγινωσκετω α γραφω υμιν οτι κυριου εισιν εντολαι

We have the same usage in the next text. αγνοειτω is 3rd person singular also.

1Cor 14:38 ​ει δε τις αγνοει αγνοειτω

3rd person singular= he/she/it.

For a translator to render the word in question gender neutral; τις would have to be neuter not masculine or feminine. This rule of thumb is why the following translators translated επιγινωσκετω and αγνοειτω with masculine pronouns.



First J.P. Green's work:
If anyone thinks to be a prophet, or a spiritual one, let him recognize the things I write to you, that they are a command of the Lord. But if any be ignorant, let him be ignorant. So then, brothers, seek eagerly to prophesy, and do not forbid to speak in languages.
(1Co 14:37-39 LITV-TSP)

Charles Thompson:
If any one be, in reality, a prophet, or a spiritual man, let him acknowledge that what I write to you are the commandments of the Lord. But if any one doth not know this, let him continue ignorant. So then, brethren, be ambitious of prophesying, and prohibit not the speaking with tongues.
(1Co 14:37-39 CT OC+NC)

Bullinger:
If any one think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write to you are the commandments of the Lord. But if any one be ignorant, let him be ignorant. Wherefore, brethren, desire to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues.
(1Co 14:37-39 EWB-CB)

Julia Smith:
If any think to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him observe what I write to you, that they are the commands of the Lord. And if any is ignorant, let him be ignorant. Therefore, brethren, be zealous to prophesy, and hinder not to speak in tongues.
(1Co 14:37-39 Julia)


If any one thinks a prophet to be or spiritual, let him acknowledge the things I write you, because of Lord they are commandments; if but any one is ignorant, let him be ignorant. So that, brethren, be you zealous that to prophesy, and that to speak with tongues not hinder you;
(1Co 14:37-39 Diaglott-NT)


Concordant Literal Version:
If anyone is presuming to be a prophet or spiritual, let him be recognizing that what I am writing to you is a precept of the Lord." Now if anyone is ignorant, let him be ignorant!" So that, my brethren, be zealous to be prophesying, and the speaking in languages do not forbid."
(1Co 14:37-39 CLV)


Grammar Use Version:
If anyone is thinking to be a prophet or spiritual, let him keep recognizing the things which I am writing to you, »they are commands of the LORD; but if any is being ignorant, let him keep being ignorant. So that, brethren, keep being emulous to be prophesying, and stop forbidding to be speaking with tongues.
(1Cor 14:37-39 GUV)

Wallace held true to the grammar in verses 37 through 38

37) If anyone considers himself a prophet or spiritual person, he should acknowledge that what I write to you is the Lord's command. 38) If someone does not recognize this, he is not recognized. 39) So then, brothers and sisters, be eager to prophesy, and do not forbid anyone from speaking in tongues.
(1Co 14:37-39 NET)

But then ignored the Conjunction aspect of ὥστε (hōste) in verse 39. This word is used to connect clauses or sentences. Typically translated, so-that, so-then, that or along those lines. Since it is at the beginning of the next clause it therefore grammatically connects what follows it to what was before.

So with that being understood
ἀδελφοί (brothers) should be translated in the masculine sense because it is grammatically governed to the preceding predicate nominative's gender which is masculine.

Now, this post shows you are a pretender where Greek is concerned, and I will tell you why!

Τις and τι are indefinite pronouns. They follow NO gender.
The gloss of Τις is: someone; a certain one, anyone. Τις applies to people and are indefinite, meaning they do not use gender.
The gloss of τι is: something; a certain thing, anything. Ti applies to things and items.


Τις is used for people, both women and men, but not specific to gender, EVER! I looked it up in Mounce's Morphology, BDAG (Bauer - pages 1007-1009) and in Wallace's Grammar, and Cleon Rogers and Rogers Linguistic and Exegetical Key to the New Testament and it is clear the meaning.

1. Τις -a reference to someone, indefinite, anyone, someone, a certain one. It is also used for something, or anything. With suggestion of non-specificity in a context where a person is specified to some extent. of a definite person.

2. Τὶ or τινά - something, anything.

And first, you come up with this ridiculous nonsense about using verbs which have no gender (unless they were participles, which they are not!) and someone making them require a masculine subject. Except being 3rd person singular, they can be "he/she/it." You even said that, and then went on, in a very misogynist way, to use only "he" and forget, that it could easily be "she."

So, I could say this and it would be just as right!

"If anyone considers herself a prophet or spiritual person, she should acknowledge that what I write to you is the Lord's command. 38) If someone does not recognize this, she is not recognized. 39) So then, brothers and sisters, be eager to prophesy, and do not forbid anyone from speaking in tongues." 1 Cor. 14:37-39

The fact is, it is hard to render neutral verbs into English, because we don't have the ability to construct a sentence without the pronoun or name or gender of the person. But to say that the "rule of thumb" for ἐπιγινωσκέτω and ἀγνοεῖται are masculine is wrong. In fact, that "rule of thumb" might have worked 40 or 50 years ago, or 400 years ago, but it points to a masculine run church, when in fact, Paul was addressing men and women at the church in Corinth, which is why he left it neutral. It would behoove us to find a way to properly translate those 2 words into English, without resorting to a complimentarian doctrine, which is biased, and only supported in biased translations.

And I don't care how many English versions translate them that way! Translating Greek accurately is not a democracy. It is an art and science, and it is heavily influenced by presuppositions. The only version that I have that leaves gender out of it, like the Greek, is the NIV. But even they have gone to 3rd person plural to accommodate the fact that English does not have a form for verbs without a separate subject.

ἐπιγινωσκέτω, is in the present imperative Active, 3rd person sg. However, there is NOTHING to determine the pronoun. So, it is better left neutral. The meaning is very neutral:

1. To have knowledge of someone or something, know!
2. To ascertain or gain information about something
3. to connect present information or awareness with what was known before, acknowledge acquaintance with, recognize, know again.
4. To indicate that one person values the person of another acknowledge, give recognition to.
5. To come to an understanding of, understand, know Τὶ or τινά
BDAG (Bauer) pg 369

ἀγνοεῖται - Present indicative Passive, to be ignored, to be disregarded.

Finally, because everything is gender neutral in the plural in English, the only answer is to substitute with "they" first person plural. In Greek we learned this is now being used more and more to represent the singular, when there is no noun or pronoun. So, this is the NEW "rule of thumb!"

So, no, it does not say he or him or himself anywhere. You just mistranslated to represent your gender bias. I find it ironical that even your Wallace quote (who is a strong complimentarian, translates ἀδελφοί as "brothers and sisters." I guess his grammar background requires him to be true to the Greek, and use "brothers and sister."

This is the most correct text, with the provision that "they" is being used as singular, to communicate the gender neutrality of the entire passage.


"If anyone thinks they are a prophet or otherwise gifted by the Spirit, let them acknowledge that what I am writing to you is the Lord’s command. 38 But if anyone ignores this, they will themselves be ignored.39 Therefore, my brothers and sisters, be eager to prophesy, and do not forbid speaking in tongues." 1 Cor. 14:37-39 NIV

PS. Here's a clue. The best Bible versions are all on Biblegateway.com I have heard of some of these guys, but no one uses their bibles. And do get Bauer (BDAG) the Greek Lexicon, and learn to use it, instead of some kind of internet or concordance nonsense. And you might want to go to BillMounce.com, as he offers first year courses in Greek. Then you wouldn't get so confused about these things.
 
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miknik5

Senior Member
Jun 2, 2016
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How dense can one truly be is the question here. Obviously if one cannot speak, then they cannot preach. This is nothing more than common sense. Why do you keep trolling about this ?
That goes as well for prophesying which can only be done UNLESS one speaks