Are women allowed to Preach?

[lightbearer]

Τις and τι are indefinite pronouns. They follow NO gender.

We are speaking on the Grammar not definitions.

It is masculine in the text and it is the subject to which the verbs relate to. That fact there is no way around. And is why the following translators; Bullinger, Green, and Wallace included, translated the text in question the way they did in these translations. If what you say was true then these translations from Green, Bullinger and Wallace would agree in there translations. . They do not. I guess they did not know what they were doing either. ButSo once again.....

For a translator to render the word in question gender neutral; τις would have to be neuter not masculine or feminine. This rule of thumb is why the following translators translated επιγινωσκετω and αγνοειτω with masculine pronouns.



First J.P. Green's work:
If anyone thinks to be a prophet, or a spiritual one, let him recognize the things I write to you, that they are a command of the Lord. But if any be ignorant, let him be ignorant. So then, brothers, seek eagerly to prophesy, and do not forbid to speak in languages.
(1Co 14:37-39 LITV-TSP)

Charles Thompson:
If any one be, in reality, a prophet, or a spiritual man, let him acknowledge that what I write to you are the commandments of the Lord. But if any one doth not know this, let him continue ignorant. So then, brethren, be ambitious of prophesying, and prohibit not the speaking with tongues.
(1Co 14:37-39 CT OC+NC)

Bullinger:
If any one think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write to you are the commandments of the Lord. But if any one be ignorant, let him be ignorant. Wherefore, brethren, desire to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues.
(1Co 14:37-39 EWB-CB)

Julia Smith:
If any think to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him observe what I write to you, that they are the commands of the Lord. And if any is ignorant, let him be ignorant. Therefore, brethren, be zealous to prophesy, and hinder not to speak in tongues.
(1Co 14:37-39 Julia)


If any one thinks a prophet to be or spiritual, let him acknowledge the things I write you, because of Lord they are commandments; if but any one is ignorant, let him be ignorant. So that, brethren, be you zealous that to prophesy, and that to speak with tongues not hinder you;
(1Co 14:37-39 Diaglott-NT)


Concordant Literal Version:
If anyone is presuming to be a prophet or spiritual, let him be recognizing that what I am writing to you is a precept of the Lord." Now if anyone is ignorant, let him be ignorant!" So that, my brethren, be zealous to be prophesying, and the speaking in languages do not forbid."
(1Co 14:37-39 CLV)


Grammar Use Version:
If anyone is thinking to be a prophet or spiritual, let him keep recognizing the things which I am writing to you, »they are commands of the LORD; but if any is being ignorant, let him keep being ignorant. So that, brethren, keep being emulous to be prophesying, and stop forbidding to be speaking with tongues.
(1Cor 14:37-39 GUV)

Wallace held true to the grammar in verses 37 through 38.

37) If anyone considers himself a prophet or spiritual person, he should acknowledge that what I write to you is the Lord's command. 38) If someone does not recognize this, he is not recognized. 39) So then, brothers and sisters, be eager to prophesy, and do not forbid anyone from speaking in tongues.
(1Co 14:37-39 NET)

But then ignored the Conjunction aspect of ὥστε (hōste) in verse 39. This word is used to connect clauses or sentences. Typically translated, so-that, so-then, that or along those lines. Since it is at the beginning of the next clause it therefore grammatically connects what follows it to what was before.

So with that being understood ἀδελφοί (brothers) should be translated in the masculine sense because it is grammatically governed to the preceding predicate nominative's gender which is masculine.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

It is amazing how many get so upset when the true words of the Bible are given to them and they don't wish to go by them.

1 Corinthians 14:34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but [they are commanded] to be under obedience, as also saith the law.

1 Corinthians 14:35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.

It's amazing that someone devotes so much of their time to two verses that may not have been written by Paul.

From > Why would 1 Cor 14:34-35 be an interpolation?

1 Cor 14:34-35 would be an interpolation if it was not originally in the text of 1 Corinthians but was added later in the margin. Scribes copying the manuscript later would naturally assume that the text in the margin was inadvertently omitted and so insert those verses into the text. All manuscripts of the Western Text-Type put these two verses after 1 Cor 14:40. Virtually all other manuscripts put these two verses after 1 Cor 14:33. Such divergent positioning is one of the hallmarks of interpolations.

There is no comparable instance of any other manuscript of any of Paul's letters of a scribe rearranging Paul's argument with a significant block of text in this way. Consequently, we know that it was contrary to scribal convention for a scribe to take the liberty to change the order of Paul's argument simply because he thought a different ordering of the text would make better sense. This is the primary basis that Gordon Fee and many others have argued it is highly unlikely that if the text were originally in Paul's letter after v. 33, that any later scribe would move that text to follow v. 40.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

From > Why would 1 Cor 14:34-35 be an interpolation?

Similarly, it is highly unlikely that if the text were originally in Paul's letter afterv. 40, that any later scribe would move that text to follow v. 33. We know it is highly unlikely since no scribe of any surviving manuscript (and there are thousands) of any of Paul's letters ever did anything like this in any other passage of Paul's letters.

 

[miknik5]

Amen, He through people who were taking advantage of the poor out. The priest were letting them do it (they were even benefiting from it, and probably instituted it) this does nto prove what he thinks it said.. I missed this some how. nice catch.

We have some pastors which need to be thrown out of churches because of their evil too. this does not mean we do not let sinners in our churches. That is what church is for. to make disciples of all nations. It is our primary mission. if we do not act on our primary mission, how can we expect god to bless us in our secondary missions?

No man (or woman) has a right to stand above GOD and make the final decision in the matter concerning the souls of men and women who love GOD and desire to know and serve HIM


as the the word of GOD also states and can’t be rejected:

who are are we to judge another man’s servant?

As well the word of GOD also states HE will pour out HIS SPIRIT on all flesh: your sons AND DAUGHTERS shall prophesy

Who can prophecy with their mouths closed?

 

[miknik5]

I believe this poster is only concentrating on the two verses of the WORD of GOD and not reading and understanding and ignoring other scripture verses of the WORD of GOD

Nameky that men and women are baptized into CHRIST and are considered members of HIS BODY


The key here is that it is HIS BODY and HE gives gifts according to HIS PURPOSE

Both to the son and the daughter of GOD

 

[garee]

Young man, (you're only a few yrs older than my son) ~ I'm not going to contend in circles with you, dear. I just looked over your posts in another thread, this one in particular:

http://christianchat.com/bible-disc...nnial-kingdom-not-literal-21.html#post3375323

You are looking for a future spiritual body and new earth. Yet Jesus said we are spiritual now because of His Spirit in us. Your quote says, "We will not be in the flesh." We're not in the flesh now, young brother.

Carl, we were crucified with Christ, nevertheless we live; yet not "we" as in flesh/carnal/intellect, but Christ who actually, literally, IN TRUTH, LIVES IN US. The life we now live in this fleshly shell we live by the faith of Jesus Christ, the Son of God, Who loves us and gave Himself for us.

Do you understand that, Carl? You died when Jesus died. You were resurrected spiritually when you came to the truth that Jesus Christ is Lord and Savior.

Old Carl is gone. Jesus doesn't relate to him anymore. He relates to His Holy Spirit in You. You're no longer a flesh man to God. You are a spiritual being in God's eyes.

Amen, great point. As new creatures no longer of the flesh.... that truth that is often put to the side in favor of glorying in the flesh especially men who desire to Lord it over the opposite sex or at least from my experiences.

First things first.

And let these also first be “proved”; then let them use the office of a deacon, being found blameless. 1Ti 3:10

Them…not him or her use the office, singular. But those found blameless not him or her. The one creation is the likeness of God .Not two separate creations, male and female as the other beasts of the field.

The point many miss. The office it two fold or a family affair . No single women, no single men to council the flock teaching them the principles of relationships.

It never about the flesh as if God was served by human hands or lips. He can use a unbeliever to bring His gospel .


Moreover he must have good testimony from them that are without; lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil. Deacons in like manner must be grave, not double-tongued, not given to much wine, not greedy of filthy lucre; holding the mystery of the faith in a pure conscience. And let these also first be proved; then let them serve as deacons, if they be blameless. Women in like manner must be grave, not slanderers, temperate, faithful in all things. Let deacons be husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well. For they that have served well as deacons gain to themselves a good standing, and great boldness in the faith which is in Christ Jesus. 1Ti 3:7-13

Let deacons be husbands of one wife, and deaconess of one husband. God created mankind in his image not man without woman.

God is not a man as us.

 

[lightbearer]

I believe this poster is only concentrating on the two verses of the WORD of GOD and not reading and understanding and ignoring other scripture verses of the WORD of GOD

Nameky that men and women are baptized into CHRIST and are considered members of HIS BODY


The key here is that it is HIS BODY and HE gives gifts according to HIS PURPOSE

Both to the son and the daughter of GOD

Hey Miknik,
Doing well I hope.


The Ideal....For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
(Gal 3:27-28 KJV)

The reality....many are called few are chosen for the way is narrow and there be few that find it.

So there are a lot of women and men in the Church.

And if a woman or a man for that matter; is preaching, teaching or doing anything in the Church; shame on them.

 

[garee]

I don't know anybody named Pontiac and I have not condemned any women. I've only posted scripture exactly as it appears within the BIBLE. If you don't like the scripture then you don't have to go by it. People have free will to either go by God's word or do as they choose.

LOL...I would think it’s not so much that women don't like the scriptures .But more of you putting yourself in the place of the Holy Spirit, when you offer your private interpretations. Did you forget God is not served by human lips as a will? We are to let Him be true and every man a liar .Not men be true and Him the liar

knowing this first, that no prophecy of scripture is of private interpretation. For no prophecy ever came by the will of man: but men spake from God, being movedby the Holy Spirit 2Pe 1:20

If God can put his words in the mouth of a Ass and work to restrain the madness of a false prophet (Balaam) He sure can put his words of prophecy in the mouth of a redeemed woman.

And Jehovah opened the mouth of the ass, and she said unto Balaam, What have I done unto thee, that thou hast smitten me these three times? And Balaam said unto the ass, Because thou hast mocked me, I would there were a sword in my hand, for now I had killed thee. And the ass said unto Balaam, Am not I thine ass, upon which thou hast ridden all thy life long unto this day? was I ever wont to do so unto thee? and he said, Nay. Num 22:28

The same applies to Satan putting word in the mouth of men as the things of men that offend God.Both men and woamn can be stumbling blocks .Our Potter who forms Christ in us is not served by human hands as if he who has no needs (none zero nada). He works in us to fullfill all needs as a Potter not nededing anything from the clay.

As God worked to put his words in the mouth of a Ass... the counterfeiter deceived Peter causing Peter the Blaspheme the Holy name we called by. Peter’s Blaspheme was forgiven time and time again


And Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall never be unto thee.
But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art a stumbling-block unto me: for thou mindest not the things of God, but the things of men.Mat 16:22


Why do you think the Lord wants you to lord it over women? What’s the bottom line? Bad experiences?

Or perhaps a power struggle as to where the final authorirty for believing our Potter comes from, as out Potter works in us.


2Co 4:7 But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the exceeding greatness of the power may be of God, and not from ourselves;


Not of man or woman .Not of the flesh if its of the Spirit

 

[miknik5]

Hey Miknik,
Doing well I hope.


The Ideal....For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
(Gal 3:27-28 KJV)

The reality....many are called few are chosen for the way is narrow and there be few that find it.

So there are a lot of women and men in the Church.

And if a woman or a man for that matter; is preaching, teaching or doing anything in the Church; shame on them.

From the beginning of Paul’s letter to the church in Corinth (1 Corinthians 1) it is very apparent there was division and chaos in the church. It is apparent that the church was losing sight of who they were serving
It’s why Paul had to remind them that they weren’t following Paul, Cephas or Apollo’s.

They were following CHRIST and were fully equipped to do so

BOTH the male and the female who had BOTH been baptized into CHRIST’s BODY
With CHRIST as the head over HIS BODY HE alone is able to direct the members of HIS BODY


As HE chooses

whether male of female

 

[Dude653]

Paul contradicts himself. In some of his letters he speaks highly of different women in the ministry.
In Galatians he says there is no male nor female in the kingdom of God and that we are all one in Christ.
then he does a complete 180 in 1st Corinthians and says don't even let women speak in church.
same guy who was murdering Christians wants us to take his advice
No thanks Paul, I'll take my instruction from Christ

 

[miknik5]

Hey Miknik,
Doing well I hope.


The Ideal....For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
(Gal 3:27-28 KJV)

The reality....many are called few are chosen for the way is narrow and there be few that find it.

So there are a lot of women and men in the Church.

And if a woman or a man for that matter; is preaching, teaching or doing anything in the Church; shame on them.

Yes. Can you imagine if anyone(male or female) just jumped up and began preaching out of turn while the pastor is preaching.

Can’t it wait until the assembly has ended and then privately (whether male or female) go to the elders and talk about what you have been given to see if it is in line with the TRUTH


This also is what Paul did when he received a revelation...he went privately to speak with the pillars before publicly beginning his ministry of preaching to the gospel gentiles

 

[miknik5]

Paul wasn’t trying to stop the SPIRIT
He was trying to ensure order before the eye of both believers and unbelievers within the assembly

 

[Mem]

In following the principle that there is to be two or three witnesses, I see that only 'the' (one) scripture, is being presented here for the side of 'NO', though a multiple of times over. Also, as apparently being suggested, women should ignore absolutely all scripture in which the text reads "man" or "men".

And so, according to this logic, women should never be condemned.

 

[trofimus]

Paul contradicts himself....
No thanks Paul, I'll take my instruction from Christ

How will you get instruction from Christ, if not through church and church recognized Paul as apostle...?

 

[lightbearer]

As HE chooses

whether male of female

Because the world is in the Church. Paul wrote through the Holy Spirit. Let a woman keep learning (in) quietness (with) all subjection; but I am not allowing a woman to be teaching, nor to be excercising authority over man, but to be (in) quietness. (2Tim 2:12-14 GUV)

Now we can say and think what we want in regards to why he shared it through the Holy Spirit. But the bottom line is he through the Spirit gave the reason for what he said above.

For Adam was formed first, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived; but the woman who has been deceived has become (in) transgression.

Weather I or we like it or not does not matter. It is what is; Thus Saith the LORD through Paul. So until the IDEAL...

 

[lightbearer]

How will you get instruction from Christ, if not through church and church recognized Paul as apostle...?

Thus saith the LORD, thy Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel; I am the LORD thy God which teacheth thee to profit, which leadeth thee by the way that thou shouldest go. The same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him. He will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.(Is 48:17; 1Jn 2:27; Joh 16:13)

 

[Mem]

In following the principle that there is to be two or three witnesses, I see that only 'the' (one) scripture, is being presented here for the side of 'NO', though a multiple of times over. Also, as apparently being suggested, women should ignore absolutely all scripture in which the text reads "man" or "men".

And so, according to this logic, women should never be condemned.

I consider the two witnesses, appointed to prophesy 1260 days, clothed in sackcloth, the two olive trees and the two lampstands that stand before the Lord of the earth, which have laid in the street of figurative Sodom and Egypt but will soon rise and stand on their feet, firmly, to be the Two Testaments. And so there should be an example verses from each before I would accept anything as right doctrine.

 

[Dude653]

Paul said "I" do not permit a woman to speak in church.
Keyword......I

 

[Nehemiah6]

Paul contradicts himself. In some of his letters he speaks highly of different women in the ministry.
In Galatians he says there is no male nor female in the kingdom of God and that we are all one in Christ. then he does a complete 180 in 1st Corinthians and says don't even let women speak in church. same guy who was murdering Christians wants us to take his advice No thanks Paul, I'll take my instruction from Christ

With all due respect this is one of THE STUPIDEST posts to come out of the woodwork.

1. The apostle Peter -- by the Holy Spirit -- confirmed that ALL of Paul's epistles were Scripture -- the Word of God (which is over half the New Testament).

2. God can never contradict Himself, therefore there can be absolutely NO CONTRADICTIONS in Scripture, whether written by Paul, Peter, James or John.

3. Yes Paul did speak highly of many Christian women because they were serving Christ and the churches faithfully.

4. Paul DID NOT say there was no male and female "in the Kingdom of God" but that there was no male or female "in Christ Jesus".

There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. (Gal 3:28)

This was in the context of all believers being "children of God" without distinctions, and that God is no respecter of these differences.

For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. (Gal 3:26)

5. In 1 Corinthians, 1 Timothy, and other passages relating to the role of men and women in the home and in the local church (assembly) Paul and Peter were giving instructions to ALL CHURCHES for all time by Divine inspiration. So this was not Paul doing "a complete 180" but the Lord Jesus Christ Himself telling Christian men and women what is acceptable and what is not.

6. Yes there was a time when Saul of Tarsus was murdering Christians, but the converted Paul -- the apostle of Jesus Christ -- was personally appointed by the Lord to be THE APOSTLE to the Gentiles. At the same time it is Paul who has given to us the bulk of the New Testament. So if you despise Paul, you are actually despising Christ. Make no mistake.

7. Christian women who are surrendered to Christ have absolutely NO OBJECTION to their God-given roles in the home and in the church. They understand that that is the will and wisdom of God, and they must not rebel against Scripture, since rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft -- it originates with Satan.

8. The Bible is crystal clear that Christian women must (1) remain in subjection to their own husbands, (2) remain silent during Christian worship, (3) cover their heads during worship as a sign of submission to God and to their husbands, and (4) refrain from preaching, teaching, or usurping the authority of elders within the local assembly. This does not prevent any Christian woman from teaching other women and children in homes or other venues outside the church, and serving the Lord in many different ways.

9. Phoebe was "a servant" of the Church at Cenchrea, but the office of deacon was reserved for men, as was the office of elder. And there are only two offices within the churches, pastors being elders.

 

[lightbearer]

And first, you come up with this ridiculous nonsense about using verbs which have no gender (unless they were participles, which they are not!) and someone making them require a masculine subject. Except being 3rd person singular, they can be "he/she/it." You even said that, and then went on, in a very misogynist way, to use only "he" and forget, that it could easily be "she."

No it could not. Proper Grammar dictates That the 3rd person singular be governed by the gender of the subject to which the verb applies. The subject in this case is Τις and it has a masculine gender. It is not subjective to the whims of the translator.

3rd person singular= he/she/it; is how it is understood. But when one translates it it is to be translated according to the gender of the subject. In this case masculine.

For a translator to render the word in question gender neutral; τις would have to be neuter not masculine or feminine. This rule of thumb is why the following translators translated επιγινωσκετω and αγνοειτω with masculine pronouns.



First J.P. Green's work:
If anyone thinks to be a prophet, or a spiritual one, let him recognize the things I write to you, that they are a command of the Lord. But if any be ignorant, let him be ignorant. So then, brothers, seek eagerly to prophesy, and do not forbid to speak in languages.
(1Co 14:37-39 LITV-TSP)

Charles Thompson:
If any one be, in reality, a prophet, or a spiritual man, let him acknowledge that what I write to you are the commandments of the Lord. But if any one doth not know this, let him continue ignorant. So then, brethren, be ambitious of prophesying, and prohibit not the speaking with tongues.
(1Co 14:37-39 CT OC+NC)

Bullinger:
If any one think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write to you are the commandments of the Lord. But if any one be ignorant, let him be ignorant. Wherefore, brethren, desire to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues.
(1Co 14:37-39 EWB-CB)

Julia Smith:
If any think to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him observe what I write to you, that they are the commands of the Lord. And if any is ignorant, let him be ignorant. Therefore, brethren, be zealous to prophesy, and hinder not to speak in tongues.
(1Co 14:37-39 Julia)


If any one thinks a prophet to be or spiritual, let him acknowledge the things I write you, because of Lord they are commandments; if but any one is ignorant, let him be ignorant. So that, brethren, be you zealous that to prophesy, and that to speak with tongues not hinder you;
(1Co 14:37-39 Diaglott-NT)


Concordant Literal Version:
If anyone is presuming to be a prophet or spiritual, let him be recognizing that what I am writing to you is a precept of the Lord." Now if anyone is ignorant, let him be ignorant!" So that, my brethren, be zealous to be prophesying, and the speaking in languages do not forbid."
(1Co 14:37-39 CLV)


Grammar Use Version:
If anyone is thinking to be a prophet or spiritual, let him keep recognizing the things which I am writing to you, »they are commands of the LORD; but if any is being ignorant, let him keep being ignorant. So that, brethren, keep being emulous to be prophesying, and stop forbidding to be speaking with tongues.
(1Cor 14:37-39 GUV)

Wallace held true to the grammar in verses 37 through 38

37) If anyone considers himself a prophet or spiritual person, he should acknowledge that what I write to you is the Lord's command. 38) If someone does not recognize this, he is not recognized. 39) So then, brothers and sisters, be eager to prophesy, and do not forbid anyone from speaking in tongues.
(1Co 14:37-39 NET)

But then ignored the Conjunction aspect of ὥστε (hōste) in verse 39. This word is used to connect clauses or sentences. Typically translated, so-that, so-then, that or along those lines. Since it is at the beginning of the next clause it therefore grammatically connects what follows it to what was before.

So with that being understood ἀδελφοί (brothers) should be translated in the masculine sense because it is grammatically governed to the preceding predicate nominative's gender which is masculine.