Not By Works

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.

Endoscopy

Senior Member
Oct 13, 2017
4,028
400
83
Paul did. In my post you quoted but obviously didn't bother to read.

Again, if you claim "We are saved by faith AND..." or "We are saved by faith PLUS..." you have added a condition to the gift of salvation, which would make it a false gospel.

Also, the word "dead" in the Bible can also mean "unproductive". For something to be dead, it had to have been alive to begin with. If dead is how you are defining it, then the Christian can lose their salvation - and that also, is not biblical.

I keep asking you this and you keep avoiding it. But I'm going to ask you again:

Just how many works are required to prove one is saved?
Here is James on the subject of faith and works (deeds in this translation) you raised a red herring attack with a request for a number. It is not the number but the fact that deeds are present.

James 2 NIV

Faith and Deeds
14 What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them? 15 Suppose a brother or a sister is without clothes and daily food. 16 If one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it? 17 In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.
18 But someone will say, “You have faith; I have deeds.”
Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds. 19 You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.
20 You foolish person, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless? 21 Was not our father Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22 You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. 23 And the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,” and he was called God’s friend. 24 You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone.
25 In the same way, was not even Rahab the prostitute considered righteous for what she did when she gave lodging to the spies and sent them off in a different direction? 26 As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.
 
Last edited:

TruthTalk

Senior Member
Jul 17, 2017
2,904
2,262
113
The first thing that took my attention when I first came to this thread was, wow the people here are very nice, very genuine and very helpful. But there is a limitation when you have gone over the same verse over and over again and the person seeking to have the questions answered never seems to be happy with the answers given, and the merry go round continues. Everybody becomes exhausted and frustrated and ready to throw in the towel.

After this happened to me about 6 months ago I just politely said, I cannot help you any more and God bless you. Well it seems to be happening here again on this thread and I can feel the tensions rise because no answer given seems to be good enough.

God bless all of you for trying to help.
 

Shamah

Senior Member
Jan 6, 2018
2,735
692
113
The Master says:

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]John 14:23-24, “[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]יהושע [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]answered him, “If anyone loves Me, he shall guard My Word. And My Father shall love him, and We shall come to him and make Our home with him. He who does not love Me does not guard My Words. And the Word which you hear is not Mine but of the Father Who sent Me.”[/FONT]
 
Dec 12, 2013
46,515
20,395
113
The first thing that took my attention when I first came to this thread was, wow the people here are very nice, very genuine and very helpful. But there is a limitation when you have gone over the same verse over and over again and the person seeking to have the questions answered never seems to be happy with the answers given, and the merry go round continues. Everybody becomes exhausted and frustrated and ready to throw in the towel.

After this happened to me about 6 months ago I just politely said, I cannot help you any more and God bless you. Well it seems to be happening here again on this thread and I can feel the tensions rise because no answer given seems to be good enough.

God bless all of you for trying to help.
Be a good soldier of Christ and stand prepared for battle.....pull your sword and defend the truth to the bitter end......regardless of the consistent stand for truth, those who reject grace, faith in favor of works and some law keeping drivel.....there re those who have been helped and those who are being helped.....ONE sinner getting right and trusting JESUS biblically is worth all of the rigmarole....and another 800,000 views and 100,000 replies.....keep stepping up to the plate and swing away brother.....fight the good fight!
 
N

NoNameMcgee

Guest
Be a good soldier of Christ and stand prepared for battle.....pull your sword and defend the truth to the bitter end......regardless of the consistent stand for truth, those who reject grace, faith in favor of works and some law keeping drivel.....there re those who have been helped and those who are being helped.....ONE sinner getting right and trusting JESUS biblically is worth all of the rigmarole....and another 800,000 views and 100,000 replies.....keep stepping up to the plate and swing away brother.....fight the good fight!
amen


keep being a shining light pointing to JESUS as the way and the truth... the only means for salvation


as opposed to the many who point to men... (self)



(but if God is putting it on someones heart to take a break .... to stop throwing pearls before swine sort of speak.... then you should rest... or use that ignore button to those who show no desire for truth and constantly attack Gods children while spewing lies)
 

Rosemaryx

Senior Member
May 3, 2017
3,719
4,080
113
62
Hi all...I must admit when I came to this site CC , I had no clue about anything really...I believe I came in to this forum and dived in at the deep end , why :confused: , i believe it was because I needed to come to the truth of how I am saved by God's grace and that nothing I could ever do can keep me saved...

I can only imagine looking back how lost I would be if I never came to that first truth for me in Ephesians 2:8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God...

I must admit when I read this at the start of the thread , I went away and searched what grace meant , what faith meant , and then only after seeking and finding this truth I could say yes I believe I am saved by grace through faith , my gift from God , thank you Jesus...\
:D/...xox...

It is great that our brothers & sisters do not tire with swinging their sword , I know Magee has admitted in the past that this thread has helped him turn to the truth , just as it has helped me to come to understand what Ephesians 2:8 means...I pray that it will help many more , that eyes will be opened , and ears will hear...Amen in Jesus name...xox...
 

Budman

Senior Member
Mar 9, 2014
4,153
1,998
113
you raised a red herring attack with a request for a number. It is not the number but the fact that deeds are present.
Cool. So if once a year at Christmas time, I give a dollar to the Salvation Army, am I good?

Yet again, the "dead faith" described is one that is unproductive. For it to be unproductive (dead) it had to have once been alive (active).

Romans 4:5 says; "To the one who does not work, but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness."

See what we have there? People who trust/believe in Christ (God), are declared righteous, even though they do not work. One cannot be righteous unless they are saved.

You keep trying to add conditions to what is offered free. Stop it. Works contribute nothing to the Christian's salvation. That was settled at the cross, and is non-negotiable. Jesus isn't going to share the glory due Him with you or anyone.

Now, may I ask, do you believe a Christian can lose their salvation, Endoscopy?
 

Endoscopy

Senior Member
Oct 13, 2017
4,028
400
83
The first thing that took my attention when I first came to this thread was, wow the people here are very nice, very genuine and very helpful. But there is a limitation when you have gone over the same verse over and over again and the person seeking to have the questions answered never seems to be happy with the answers given, and the merry go round continues. Everybody becomes exhausted and frustrated and ready to throw in the towel.

After this happened to me about 6 months ago I just politely said, I cannot help you any more and God bless you. Well it seems to be happening here again on this thread and I can feel the tensions rise because no answer given seems to be good enough.

God bless all of you for trying to help.
Keep in mind that differences of opinion started in the early church. That caused the creation of the Roman Creed and updated to the Apostles Creed. This defines who is a Christian and who isn't. Outside of this differences of opinion are to be agree to disagree with fellow Christians. This has caused denominations. Be polite in your disagreements.
 
Dec 12, 2013
46,515
20,395
113
Hi all...I must admit when I came to this site CC , I had no clue about anything really...I believe I came in to this forum and dived in at the deep end , why :confused: , i believe it was because I needed to come to the truth of how I am saved by God's grace and that nothing I could ever do can keep me saved...

I can only imagine looking back how lost I would be if I never came to that first truth for me in Ephesians 2:8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God...

I must admit when I read this at the start of the thread , I went away and searched what grace meant , what faith meant , and then only after seeking and finding this truth I could say yes I believe I am saved by grace through faith , my gift from God , thank you Jesus...\
:D/...xox...

It is great that our brothers & sisters do not tire with swinging their sword , I know Magee has admitted in the past that this thread has helped him turn to the truth , just as it has helped me to come to understand what Ephesians 2:8 means...I pray that it will help many more , that eyes will be opened , and ears will hear...Amen in Jesus name...xox...
Amen Rose....we love your stance and spirit....those who have been forgiven much know without a doubt that it is all Jesus and his work/faith.......
 
Dec 12, 2013
46,515
20,395
113
Keep in mind that differences of opinion started in the early church. That caused the creation of the Roman Creed and updated to the Apostles Creed. This defines who is a Christian and who isn't. Outside of this differences of opinion are to be agree to disagree with fellow Christians. This has caused denominations. Be polite in your disagreements.
No....the bible ALONE determines who is and who is not...not some creed written by men.....!
 

TruthTalk

Senior Member
Jul 17, 2017
2,904
2,262
113
amen


keep being a shining light pointing to JESUS as the way and the truth... the only means for salvation


as opposed to the many who point to men... (self)



(but if God is putting it on someones heart to take a break .... to stop throwing pearls before swine sort of speak.... then you should rest... or use that ignore button to those who show no desire for truth and constantly attack Gods children while spewing lies)
Thanks NoName, there is a balance like you say and I have never been one for burning bridges lest you need to cross that bridge again.
 

Shamah

Senior Member
Jan 6, 2018
2,735
692
113
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]John/Yahanan 12:48, "He who rejects Me, and does not follow My words has One Who judges him. The word that I have spoken, the same will be used to judge him in the last day."[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]John 12:25-26, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless a grain of wheat falls into the ground and dies, it remains alone. But if it dies, it bears much fruit. He who loves his life shall lose it, and he who hates his life in this world shall preserve it for everlasting life." Whoever serves me must follow me; and where I am, my servant also will be. My Father will honor the one who serves me.”[/FONT]
 

Shamah

Senior Member
Jan 6, 2018
2,735
692
113
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]John/Yahanan 6:27, John 6:27, “Do not labor for the food that is perishing, but for the food that is remaining to everlasting life, which the Son of Aḏam shall give you, for the Father, Yah, has set His seal on Him.” [/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Mat 19:16-17, "And see, one came and said to Him, “Good Teacher, what good shall I do to have everlasting life? And He said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good except One – YHWH. But if you wish to enter into life, guard the commands.”[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]John/Yahanan 14:26, "But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you."[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]John/Yahanan 14:15, “If you love Me, keep My commandments.”[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Luke 6:46, “But why do you call Me ‘Master, Master,’ and do not do what I say?”[/FONT]
 

TruthTalk

Senior Member
Jul 17, 2017
2,904
2,262
113
Be a good soldier of Christ and stand prepared for battle.....pull your sword and defend the truth to the bitter end......regardless of the consistent stand for truth, those who reject grace, faith in favor of works and some law keeping drivel.....there re those who have been helped and those who are being helped.....ONE sinner getting right and trusting JESUS biblically is worth all of the rigmarole....and another 800,000 views and 100,000 replies.....keep stepping up to the plate and swing away brother.....fight the good fight!
Amen Brother,

 

Shamah

Senior Member
Jan 6, 2018
2,735
692
113
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]John/Yahanan 10:16, "And I have other sheep that are not of this fold. I must bring them also, and they will listen to My voice. So there will be one flock, one Shepherd (4166 – poimén)."[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Mat 24:35, “Heaven and earth may pass away, but My teachings will not pass away.”[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]John/Yahanan 5:39, “You search the Scriptures, because you think you possess everlasting life in them. And these are the ones that bear witness of Me.”[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]John/Yahanan 14:26, “But the Comforter; the Holy Spirit which YHWH will send in My Name will teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatever I (Yahshua/Jesus) have said to you.”[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]John/Yahanan 6:63, “It is the Spirit that gives life; the flesh is useless. The words (Instructions) that I (Yahshua/Jesus) speak to you, they are Spirit, and they are life everlasting.” [/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]John 14:23-24, “[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]יהושע [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]answered him, “If anyone loves Me, he shall guard My Word. And My Father shall love him, and We shall come to him and make Our home with him. He who does not love Me does not guard My Words. And the Word which you hear is not Mine but of the Father Who sent Me.”[/FONT]
 
Dec 12, 2013
46,515
20,395
113
Funny how some still believe in their mind that they actually keep the law.....even though to break one of the least of the commandments makes one a law breaker their whole life.....

NONE keep it
NONE have kept it except JESUS

and exactly why the righteousness of CHRIST (the only one to keep the law) has been and is IMPUTED BY FAITH and FAITH without WORKS (law indicated)
 
N

NoNameMcgee

Guest
Funny how some still believe in their mind that they actually keep the law.....even though to break one of the least of the commandments makes one a law breaker their whole life.....

NONE keep it
NONE have kept it except JESUS

and exactly why the righteousness of CHRIST (the only one to keep the law) has been and is IMPUTED BY FAITH and FAITH without WORKS (law indicated)
i see people get so decieved by the false man-made doctrine they follow...


that they end up believing

oh if it is a willful sin i just have to repent to regain my own salvation

but the sins i dont know about arent willful so God knows i dont need to repent of those .... there still remains a sacrifice for my sins (completely misunderstanding hebrews 10... and rest of scripture)



:rolleyes:


its like no....



even one sin... on purpose or accident is = to every sin in regards to falling short of the glory of God

and you never "gain" or "regain" your salvation based on your own will or efforts


its once you repent from unbelief

and have a genuine faith in Christ

by His grace you are saved...

made new

born again


and whats super amazing about genuine faith....

you never can stop believing.....

because you genuinely believe


the same way i know i have my father on earth
i know i have my Father in heaven.....

of course this is still by "faith"

both of these

i didnt visually see either conception

i see plenty evidence of both
 
Dec 12, 2013
46,515
20,395
113
i see people get so decieved by the false man-made doctrine they follow...


that they end up believing

oh if it is a willful sin i just have to repent to regain my own salvation

but the sins i dont know about arent willful so God knows i dont need to repent of those .... there still remains a sacrifice for my sins (completely misunderstanding hebrews 10... and rest of scripture)



:rolleyes:


its like no....



even one sin... on purpose or accident is = to every sin in regards to falling short of the glory of God

and you never "gain" or "regain" your salvation based on your own will or efforts


its once you repent from unbelief

and have a genuine faith in Christ

by His grace you are saved...

made new

born again


and whats super amazing about genuine faith....

you never can stop believing.....

because you genuinely believe


the same way i know i have my father on earth
i know i have my Father in heaven.....

of course this is still by "faith"

both of these

i didnt visually see either conception

i see plenty evidence of both
AMEN bro....I agree.....
 

Shamah

Senior Member
Jan 6, 2018
2,735
692
113
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]It seems the battle cry of accusation is the one where anyone that says His Law is valid

[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Mat 5:18, "I say to you; Unless heaven and earth passes away, one yodh; the smallest of the letters will in no way pass from the Law, until all things are perfected."

Revelation 21:1, "I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away."
[/FONT]

Is then called "sinless perfectionist, not admitting sin, lawyer, pharisee, etc. Very sad and truly reflecing of ones heart.


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Jeremiah 31:33, "For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israyl: After those days, says YHWH: I will put My Law (Torah/Instructions) in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts, and I will be their Strength, and they will be My people."[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Hebrews 10:16, "This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, says YHWH: I will put My Law into their hearts, and in their minds I will write them.”[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]

John 1:8-10, "If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His Word is not in us."
[/FONT]



[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]1 John 3:4, "Whoever commits sin, transgresses also the Law; for sin is the transgression of the Law."[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]1 John 2:1-2, "My little children, I write these things to you, so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father: Yahshua Messiah, the Righteous; and He is the sacrifice of atonement for our sins, and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world."
[/FONT]
His standard is the same no matter if I follow it or not, believe it or not.
 

VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
11,972
4,587
113
The Master says:

John 14:23-24, “יהושע answered him, “If anyone loves Me, he shall guard My Word. And My Father shall love him, and We shall come to him and make Our home with him. He who does not love Me does not guard My Words. And the Word which you hear is not Mine but of the Father Who sent Me.”

Now there you go, SIMPLE and to the point.

No some will think you are advocating the false doctrine, of works Righteousness, But I do not see it that way. I think you are saying "Because GOD put HIS Love in me = Salvation; I want to serve HIM with Loving Obedience. Most of us here will gladly agree with that. Because I think you are NOW putting the Obedience solely in the realm of LOVING OBEDIENCE.

To help people who wrongly think you are NOT advocating Works Righteousness, You may want to substitute the Exodus 20:6 verse with these verses:


1 John 3:14-19 (NKJV)
[SUP]14 [/SUP] We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love the brethren. He who does not love his brother abides in death.
[SUP]15 [/SUP] Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him.
[SUP]16 [/SUP] By this we know love, because He laid down His life for us. And we also ought to lay down our lives for the brethren.
[SUP]17 [/SUP] But whoever has this world's goods, and sees his brother in need, and shuts up his heart from him, how does the love of God abide in him?
[SUP]18 [/SUP] My little children, let us not love in word or in tongue, but in deed and in truth.
[SUP]19 [/SUP] And by this we know that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before Him.