A Question about Free Will, Hell and how it is all set up.

[trofimus]

12 And now who are ye that have tempted God this day, and stand instead of God among the children of men?
13 And now try the Lord Almighty, but ye shall never know any thing.
14 For ye cannot find the depth of the heart of man, neither can ye perceive the things that he thinketh: then how can ye search out God, that hath made all these things, and know his mind, or comprehend his purpose? Nay, my brethren, provoke not the Lord our God to anger.
15 For if he will not help us within these five days, he hath power to defend us when he will, even every day, or to destroy us before our enemies.
16 Do not bind the counsels of the Lord our God: for God is not as man, that he may be threatened; neither is he as the son of man, that he should be wavering.
17 Therefore let us wait for salvation of him, and call upon him to help us, and he will hear our voice, if it please him.

Judith 8:12-17

 

[John146]

Ok, accept or deny God... but:
1. what was his/her childhood
2. what is her/his intelect, IQ etc.
3. what is her/his character (flegmatic, choleric, deep, on the surface, slow, fast thinking, long time to change or fast unstable changes from one thing to another...)
4. not everybody has the equal amount of information
5. not everybody has the equal amount of faith

--- as you can see, there are so many factors one cannot give to himself that even though we can say that God does not force us to believe and to love Him, He is still in a very good control of that

1. Some have more of an opportunity to hear the word and believe because of the blessings of God upon a nation or household. The choice is still up to man.

2. Intellect has nothing to do with hearing the word and believing. The gospel is simple.

3. Has nothing to do with believing the simplicity of the gospel.

4. True. See #1. This is why we are commanded to preach the gospel unto the uttermost parts of the earth. It's the ambassadors fault if the message is not preached and will be held accountable.

5. God has given everyone an amount of faith to believe the gospel. Some exercise that faith and believe, some reject.

 

[trofimus]

God can lie. Though He may choose not to, that does not mean that He can't.

"so that by two unchangeable things in which it is impossible for God to lie, we who have taken refuge would have strong encouragement to take hold of the hope set before us."
Heb 6:18

It is impossible because it would contradict His character.

Can be God tempted by evil?

 

[John146]

God can lie. Though He may choose not to, that does not mean that He can't.

God cannot lie for Scripture says so.

 

[Magenta]

He can be righteous and holy while still sending people to Heaven.

A the end of this age, following the resurrection and judgment of all, those who placed their faith in the shed righteous blood of Jesus Christ for the propitiation of their sins attain to life ever after, which is lived on the new earth.

 

[Hungry]

Kevin, you are correct, God is not by definition, omnipotent. Love, also used so commonly in the Bible, is not an emotion. Agape means to act on behalf of the best interest of; like a responsibility. You obviously came here to match wits with believers. God, the Creator, doesn’t want us to be emotionally attached to Him like a schoolgirl, going to the dance with her longtime crush. Marriage in the Bible wasn’t an emotionally orchestrated event. It was a business transaction. The husband provides a service and so does the wife. Together they become one unit, synergistically working towards a common goal. Emotional love is a byproduct of having one’s needs met. It is based on a chemical reaction at the hormonal level. The Creator invented us to do His will. Whatever caused us to be “aware”, probably not a fruit, caused us to question our obedience, removing us from “creational homeostasis”. Now He offers us a deal, follow Me because I’m going to reinstate my physical authority and presence after the next destructuction and I want others to rule with Me, or die with the rest of planet, or oppose Me and face eternal punishment. There’s the choice.

Until the devastation, we are to represent Him. He communicates with us like the brain to the limbs. The Holy Spirit is the neurological system. The brain doesn’t pick up a pencil, it sends the message to the fingers to pick it up. He is the head/brain, we are the hands. We are the Body of Christ. If He could do it Himself, He wouldn’t put up with us dropping the pencil continually. Think bigger and understand the whole construct, and quit arguing minor details based on ignorance.

 

[Kevin_Bo-Bevin]

Death is the natural end of a natural life. The flesh counts for nothing in God's kingdom: you must be born again of the Spirit of God to enter. That cannot happen when you think you know better than God as you do. You are operating under the pride of life. God resists the proud. Those who refuse His offer of salvation due to their pride of life pass into the second death by the choices they made. Blaming God for your choices is not going to help your case, you know...

Look, Magenta. . . I can say the same kinda stuff. You deny God's sovereignty. In this you do not know God because you do not know or refuse to acknowledge his power. Just as a child does not fear a whistling kettle because they do not know it can burn, you do not truly fear God because you do not know his power.

I can just as easily say that you refuse God. But that does not help the discussion at hand. . .

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

He can be righteous and holy while still sending people to Heaven.

How?

.......

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

This is getting out of hand. But he could destroy himself while not destroying himself and make himself never exist while also existing for all eternity. That's omnipotence.

You're just indulging in illogical fantasy.

 

[Kevin_Bo-Bevin]

Kevin, you are correct, God is not by definition, omnipotent. Love, also used so commonly in the Bible, is not an emotion. Agape means to act on behalf of the best interest of; like a responsibility. You obviously came here to match wits with believers. God, the Creator, doesn’t want us to be emotionally attached to Him like a schoolgirl, going to the dance with her longtime crush. Marriage in the Bible wasn’t an emotionally orchestrated event. It was a business transaction. The husband provides a service and so does the wife. Together they become one unit, synergistically working towards a common goal. Emotional love is a byproduct of having one’s needs met. It is based on a chemical reaction at the hormonal level. The Creator invented us to do His will. Whatever caused us to be “aware”, probably not a fruit, caused us to question our obedience, removing us from “creational homeostasis”. Now He offers us a deal, follow Me because I’m going to reinstate my physical authority and presence after the next destructuction and I want others to rule with Me, or die with the rest of planet, or oppose Me and face eternal punishment. There’s the choice.

Until the devastation, we are to represent Him. He communicates with us like the brain to the limbs. The Holy Spirit is the neurological system. The brain doesn’t pick up a pencil, it sends the message to the fingers to pick it up. He is the head/brain, we are the hands. We are the Body of Christ. If He could do it Himself, He wouldn’t put up with us dropping the pencil continually. Think bigger and understand the whole construct, and quit arguing minor details based on ignorance.

I didn't come here for an intellectual sparring match. I came in search of answers. And I never said that God is not omnipotent. I say he is.

 

[Kevin_Bo-Bevin]

"so that by two unchangeable things in which it is impossible for God to lie, we who have taken refuge would have strong encouragement to take hold of the hope set before us."
Heb 6:18

It is impossible because it would contradict His character.

Can be God tempted by evil?

Through God's power, nothing is impossible!
He can be tempted by evil, though he may not allow himself to be.

 

[trofimus]

I didn't come here for an intellectual sparring match. I came in search of answers. And I never said that God is not omnipotent. I say he is.

So, you say He is not good enough?

Or with which of His attributes do you have a problem?

 

[trofimus]

Through God's power, nothing is impossible!
He can be tempted by evil, though he may not allow himself to be.

"God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone"
James 1:13


I think you should rething your idea of God´s omnipotence. You are trying to take one of His attributes (power) and nulify or make useless or isolated His other attributes that are in perfect balance with His power, with His love, with His wisdom etc.

Its not just his power. His power is completely mixed with His wisdom. With His goodness etc. Therefore He actually cannot do anything unwise.

 

[Kevin_Bo-Bevin]

You're just indulging in illogical fantasy.

You are saying that some things are beyond God's power. I say that this is not so, all things are within God's power.

 

[Kevin_Bo-Bevin]

"God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone"
James 1:13


I think you should rething your idea of God´s omnipotence.

He cannot be tempted by evil if He choses that to be the truth. In this way, the scripture is true.

 

[trofimus]

He cannot be tempted by evil if He choses that to be the truth. In this way, the scripture is true.

And He cannot choose otherwise, because He is wise and always chooses wisely.

 

[Kevin_Bo-Bevin]

So, you say He is not good enough?

Or with which of His attributes do you have a problem?

I do not understand why God has decided to set up the universe in such a way that He would have to send people to Hell even though He does not want to send people to Hell and has the power to set up the universe in another way that makes it so that nobody has to go to Hell.

 

[Kevin_Bo-Bevin]

And He cannot choose otherwise, because He is wise and always chooses wisely.

He can choose otherwise. That is the power of a sovereign God.

 

[Kevin_Bo-Bevin]

"God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone"
James 1:13


I think you should rething your idea of God´s omnipotence. You are trying to take one of His attributes (power) and nulify or make useless or isolated His other attributes that are in perfect balance with His power, with His love, with His wisdom etc.

Its not just his power. His power is completely mixed with His wisdom. With His goodness etc. Therefore He actually cannot do anything unwise.

His power does not have to be mixed with His other attributes if He wills it. He is sovereign over himself just as He is sovereign over us.

 

[trofimus]

He can choose otherwise. That is the power of a sovereign God.

He cannot. He must be always moral, not lying, good, loving, just etc. He cannot change that tomorrow. One of His attributes is always needed by another of His attributes.

Thats the beauty and stability of a perfect God.