examples of speaking in tongues - need verification and explanations, please

[DJ2]

I didn't have time to read it in depth, but I scanned it, and pretty much disagree with his premise, as well. It's sort of like hearing a Kennedy assassination theory.... interesting, but it goes against the narrative.

If it takes "scholars" coming up with a "new theory" to explain what was rather clearly described in scripture, guess which one I'm going with?

I've read "scholars" that explained how Jesus walked on water.... a freak storm came up on the sea, and flash froze some of the water into floating slabs of ice. Jesus was riding on one of those, which gave the appearance of walking on water.

View attachment 181158


Look at a map of those days, and see the dispersion of people who were named as being there in Jerusalem. From way over by the Caspian sea, to way down in Egypt... and from an island in the Mediterranean....

And this guy's trying to explain how they all spoke the same language? Riiiiiight....

Maybe the aliens that built the pyramids acted as "mind-meld" interpreters....

Sorry, I'm just not buying into that theory. I'll go with what scripture says.

A mature and clear headed response. A voice of reason in the mist of chaos.

 

[CS1]

I can't prove it biblically, but you can't prove its not so. Most people reading Acts would see there's enough there to conclude the points I posted. If you want to disagree, that's fine. I stated what I believe is strongly implied, you disagree-good enough?

LOL DIDYMOUS you are not going to answer my question . ok were done thank you

 

[CS1]

Sorry for the delay, sir. It took me a minute to find what you were actually asking. I assume 16 languages because 16 locations were mentioned. I assumed one language because most people can only hear one at a time. Maybe you think the people from these 16 places were hearing more than one language at a time?
Do you really think people from every nation under the sun means every place in the world? If people from my tribe were in Jerusalem 2,000 years ago, I think we'd have a story about that. If you can agree that all that we discuss is conjecture, and that some conjectures seem more likely than not-then we can be of one accord about things written that we didn't witness ourselves. Otherwise, it's just you trying to convince me that you're right and I'm not. The truth is, I don't know that I'm right, nor if you're right, but I guarantee you'll never convince me by pushing any unbiblical tongues beliefs on me.

where do you get 16 location ? you better count again. do yu really think that every place under heaven was not what Luke ment ? and to your point if it was just a metaphor of the many languages contextually 16 fall way short.
again human reasoning just expl;ain chapter 2:5-11 of Acts just do that using Biblical understanding .

I will wait.

 

[RickyZ]

Let me just throw something out as a theory ... OK people? Take some Valium and consider:

When Adam and Eve were created, and as their numbers grew, they spoke a single pure language. It was one of the few things that man kept after the fall. Then, at Babel, man lost that pure singular language. The purpose of the Messiah/Christ is to restore everything man lost - which will include that pure singular language. Jesus has won the power to perform that restoration, but is yet to return to earth to enforce it. In the meantime enforcement of that restoration belongs to us in His Name. Could tongues not be the ability to, thru the Holy Spirit, tap into that future restored language here and now?

 

[Didymous]

Let me just throw something out as a theory ... OK people? Take some Valium and consider:

When Adam and Eve were created, and as their numbers grew, they spoke a single pure language. It was one of the few things that man kept after the fall. Then, at Babel, man lost that pure singular language. The purpose of the Messiah/Christ is to restore everything man lost - which will include that pure singular language. Jesus has won the power to perform that restoration, but is yet to return to earth to enforce it. In the meantime enforcement of that restoration belongs to us in His Name. Could tongues not be the ability to, thru the Holy Spirit, tap into that future restored language here and now?

An interesting thought.

 

[Nehemiah6]

Could tongues not be the ability to, thru the Holy Spirit, tap into that future restored language here and now?

Not likely. "Whether there be tongues, they shall cease".

 

[RickyZ]

True, but my understanding is that it doesn't actually stop being spoken, they cease to be known as a tongue. When the original single pure language is restored, English/German/French would then be the tongues, as they would no longer be the primary language(s).

For comparison, healing. Man was meant to be eternal, sickness came upon him in the fall, in the end eternal health will be restored, and when it is healings will cease - not that it stops, it becomes moot.

When everyone is finally speaking the one pure restored language, we will cease thinking of it as a tongue.

 

[dorry]

OK guys thanks for all your insightful texts .If we have to learn more about tongues and prophesy let's read our scriptures critically 1corinthians 14 the whole chapter. It differiciates between prophecy and speaking in tongues.
Prophesy is between man and the church. .Message from God interpreted to his church. And tongues between the spirit and God That's why Paul said if you don't know how to interpret the tongues don't be loud before others but rather let it be between you and your God .All those are just gifts of the holy spirit .It doesn't necessary mean if you don't have either of the two you don't have the holy spirit that's not true .we all have different gifts .1conrithians 14.

 

[Kavik]

@hornetguy -

I don’t believe it goes against the narrative, nor do I see it as a ‘new’ theory – it takes a clearer understanding of what’s already written.

As to the number of languages – this is not the best analogy, but it kind of gets the general point across:

United States, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, England, Wales, Man, Ireland, Scotland, Bahamas, etc., etc. – Many different lands, all over the globe even, but ….. one language; English.

As I said, that’s not the best analogy as just about every one of these places has its own indigenous languages, but you get the general idea.

Lands of the Western Diaspora (e.g. Greece, Pontus, Phrygia, Pamphylia, Cyprus, Cappadocia, Crete, etc.) were all Greek speaking – had been for centuries. These lands were all Hellenized since the time of Alexander; Greek had long displaced any indigenous languages. If you lived in one of these places, whether Jew or not, your native language/’mother tongues’ was Greek. Even Galatia (in present day Turkey), a land settled by Celts speaking a language akin to Gaulish, was entirely Greek speaking by the time Paul wrote his letters to the Galatians. To this list one may also add larger cities in Egypt, most notably (and the one most Jews in Egypt settled in) Alexandria. Alexandria was more Greek speaking than it was Egyptian speaking.

So, yes, many lands spanning a wide area, but all one language.

Think of the American East Coast 500 years ago – many nations, many languages; within a mere few hundred years of English settlement, virtually every language was wiped out and displaced by English. Same thing back then with Greek with respect to displacing existing languages.

The remainder of these lands (excluding Judea) were lands of the Eastern Diaspora – a bit different here. No Hellenization; each one had its own language.

Jews, like any other ethnic minority group; even those of today, tended to live in the larger cities and live as a community. One of the ways they preserved their "Jewishness" was to preserve their language; Aramaic. We see this today with ethnic minority groups: sure, people will learn the local language and speak it in varying degrees of fluency, but no one will ever grow up with it as their mother tongue. The language of home and hearth was Aramaic. Just as minority groups today preserve their language. The blog post explains this in greater detail.

The point is, though you have many lands all over the ‘known world’, for Jews, only two “mother tongues”; Greek or Aramaic, depending on where you lived. “Every nation under heaven” is an idiomatic expression – we might say something like “from all over the place” today.

People tend to equate each place mentioned in the 'list' in Acts with a language, but that’s just not the historic reality of the situation. The list in Acts shows the Jewish Diaspora and was included for political purposes (again, refer to the blog post) – it doesn’t represent linguistic diversity; there was none.

 

[garee]

I would suggest going back to the foundation, the beginning when the law was first established.

In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord. Wherefore tongues are for a sign, "not" to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe. 1Cor. 14

A sign to them that believe nota sign of rebellion.

That law as a foundation is written to scornful men as a sign “against them” God mocking them stammering lips that believe not prophecy making the word of God to no effect with their oral traditions. It is a sign of rebellion not confirmation .Why would a believer seek such a sign ?

For with stammering(mocking) lips and another tongue (other languages other than the Jewish) will he speak to this people. To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear But the word of the Lord was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward,(to indicate they are under judgment) and be broken, and snared, and taken. Wherefore hear the word of the Lord, ye scornful men, that rule this people which is in Jerusalem Isiah 28:11-14

No outward sign to the believer. Christ said, It’s an evil generation the generation of natural unconverted men that do require a sign before they will believe.

 

[Kavik]

@RickyZ

An interesting thought and I think it speaks to the point of there being 'one' heavenly language.

Because of how modern tongues are produced, no two will ever be the same; there are as many 'tongues' as there are 'speakers'.

If indeed the modern phenomena is a 'heavenly language', to your point - why would there ever be need for more than just one.

 

[garee]

@RickyZ

An interesting thought and I think it speaks to the point of there being 'one' heavenly language.

Because of how modern tongues are produced, no two will ever be the same; there are as many 'tongues' as there are 'speakers'.

If indeed the modern phenomena is a 'heavenly language', to your point - why would there ever be need for more than just one.

The phenomena is prophecy God's interpretation tomankind .God spoke men hear his interpretation.

Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scriptureis of any private interpretation. For the prophecy came not in old time bythe will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the HolyGhost.2 Peter 1:20-21

 

[Bladerunner]

Please take note of the specific scope of this thread. t.y.


THIS THREAD IS FOR POSTING REAL EXAMPLES OF PEOPLE TEACHING ABOUT/AND/OR EXERCISING THIS PHENOMENON KNOWN IN SOME DENOMINATIONS AS TONGUES.

I AM SINCERELY SEEKING INPUT ONLY FROM THOSE WHO DO EXPERIENCE AND PRACTICE TONGUES.

COULD YOU PLEASE POST A RESPONSE TO ANY OR EACH VIDEO, EXPLAINING WHY THE TEACHING/PRACTICE SHOWN IN THE VIDEO IS EITHER RIGHT OR WRONG.

This is a sincere request, and only people who actually speak, or have in the past spoken in tongues are qualified to explain what is happening, and to validate or refute what is seen. if you practiced this at one time but no longer do, please participate.

everyone else is invited to post examples or ask questions.

this is a fact finding effort, and is of critical importance in many ways, not the least of which is the division this practice, or the rejection of it, has caused. i do not know if it can be resolved, but practical and civil Q&A is reasonable to request.



..................

example # 1


[video=youtube;vB06DaOGmW8]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vB06DaOGmW8[/video]

Prayer Language, Praying in Tongues, How satan stops Christians from receiving the prayer language

19:13

Published on Mar 19, 2012
Praying in Tognues. satan has had a very successful campaign in preventing Christians from getting the Gift of Tongues. There are so many lies and misunderstanding in the church about this gift. In short, satan allows the Church to talk about it, study it, debate about it, have nice doctrinal discussions about it, as long as they just NEVER get it. What good is a soldier that knows all about guns, but doesn't have one. Not using this Gift has crippled the Church, preventing many believers from maturing on to the Higher Gifts. If you're a Christian who doesn't have the Prayer Language yet, Get IT! Stop making excuses of why you don't need it, or how you failed to get it before. JUST GET IT! and if you already have the gift?Use It, Stir It Up, It doesn't do any good if it lies dormant.

~

"not using this gift has crippled the church preventing many believers from maturing to the higher gifts"

So SAD!

Blade

 

[Didymous]

@hornetguy -

I don’t believe it goes against the narrative, nor do I see it as a ‘new’ theory – it takes a clearer understanding of what’s already written.

As to the number of languages – this is not the best analogy, but it kind of gets the general point across:

United States, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, England, Wales, Man, Ireland, Scotland, Bahamas, etc., etc. – Many different lands, all over the globe even, but ….. one language; English.

As I said, that’s not the best analogy as just about every one of these places has its own indigenous languages, but you get the general idea.

Lands of the Western Diaspora (e.g. Greece, Pontus, Phrygia, Pamphylia, Cyprus, Cappadocia, Crete, etc.) were all Greek speaking – had been for centuries. These lands were all Hellenized since the time of Alexander; Greek had long displaced any indigenous languages. If you lived in one of these places, whether Jew or not, your native language/’mother tongues’ was Greek. Even Galatia (in present day Turkey), a land settled by Celts speaking a language akin to Gaulish, was entirely Greek speaking by the time Paul wrote his letters to the Galatians. To this list one may also add larger cities in Egypt, most notably (and the one most Jews in Egypt settled in) Alexandria. Alexandria was more Greek speaking than it was Egyptian speaking.

So, yes, many lands spanning a wide area, but all one language.

Think of the American East Coast 500 years ago – many nations, many languages; within a mere few hundred years of English settlement, virtually every language was wiped out and displaced by English. Same thing back then with Greek with respect to displacing existing languages.

The remainder of these lands (excluding Judea) were lands of the Eastern Diaspora – a bit different here. No Hellenization; each one had its own language.

Jews, like any other ethnic minority group; even those of today, tended to live in the larger cities and live as a community. One of the ways they preserved their "Jewishness" was to preserve their language; Aramaic. We see this today with ethnic minority groups: sure, people will learn the local language and speak it in varying degrees of fluency, but no one will ever grow up with it as their mother tongue. The language of home and hearth was Aramaic. Just as minority groups today preserve their language. The blog post explains this in greater detail.

The point is, though you have many lands all over the ‘known world’, for Jews, only two “mother tongues”; Greek or Aramaic, depending on where you lived. “Every nation under heaven” is an idiomatic expression – we might say something like “from all over the place” today.

People tend to equate each place mentioned in the 'list' in Acts with a language, but that’s just not the historic reality of the situation. The list in Acts shows the Jewish Diaspora and was included for political purposes (again, refer to the blog post) – it doesn’t represent linguistic diversity; there was none.

You could be right about the Middle East, I don't know, but you're wrong about the East coast-as any federally recognized tribe would be able to tell you, but since you know better than anyone else because you read a history book about it....

 

[garee]

I AM SINCERELY SEEKING INPUT ​

ONLY

FROM THOSE WHO DO EXPERIENCE AND PRACTICE TONGUES.​

For what purpose would you be seeking those who think they have experienced and do practice? Why not those who have not?

 

[Didymous]

You could be right about the Middle East, I don't know, but you're wrong about the East coast-as any federally recognized tribe would be able to tell you, but since you know better than anyone else because you read a history book about it....

Kavik, it seems apparent I grew up reading the same history books you did, but as a Native American, I knew most of it was a bunch of lies-which you never learned, because those books never told any negative untruths about your people like they did about my tribe and the hundreds of other tribes here-including such nonsense about virtually all the East coast tribes not speaking their languages. Part of the BIA requirements for a tribe to be recognized is that they speak their language, and that means every recognized tribe in the USA, including those of the East coast, speak their own language.
Since you're wrong about that, I don't know why you should be trusted to know about the history of any other area.

 

[Kavik]

Kavik, it seems apparent I grew up reading the same history books you did, but as a Native American, I knew most of it was a bunch of lies-which you never learned, because those books never told any negative untruths about your people like they did about my tribe and the hundreds of other tribes here-including such nonsense about virtually all the East coast tribes not speaking their languages. Part of the BIA requirements for a tribe to be recognized is that they speak their language, and that means every recognized tribe in the USA, including those of the East coast, speak their own language.
Since you're wrong about that, I don't know why you should be trusted to know about the history of any other area.

The BIA has several requirements for federal recognition - indigenous language retention is not one of them. Examples of federally recognized Tribes/Nations around my neck of the woods would be the Mohegan, Wampanoag, and Narragansett. None of these (unfortunately) still have native speakers.

Most tribes on the East Coast unfortunately no longer speak their languages (I'm part Penobscott and Mi'kmaq, BTW).

The above said, there is some great work being done (at least in my neck of the woods) to bring many of them them back (Wampanoag, Penobscot, Mohegan, and Abenaki for example), but most indigenous east coast languages are long gone.

Not the case in other part of the US where many of the languages are still quite healthy.

 

[Kavik]

I should have added to the above that language retention can (and has been) certainly be used to bolster and support the first requirement, but in and of itself, language retention is not a requirement.

 

[CS1]

Let me just throw something out as a theory ... OK people? Take some Valium and consider:

When Adam and Eve were created, and as their numbers grew, they spoke a single pure language. It was one of the few things that man kept after the fall. Then, at Babel, man lost that pure singular language. The purpose of the Messiah/Christ is to restore everything man lost - which will include that pure singular language. Jesus has won the power to perform that restoration, but is yet to return to earth to enforce it. In the meantime enforcement of that restoration belongs to us in His Name. Could tongues not be the ability to, thru the Holy Spirit, tap into that future restored language here and now?

You will notice those who use incorrectly 1cor 13:8 and only quote part of the verse "Whether there be tongues, they shall cease".

that is not the context of 1cor 13:8 again they fail to read the three chapters as a unit 1cor 12, 13, and 14. they cherry pick .

So Lets look at the context of "Whether there be tongues, they shall cease".

the open verse says " 8 Love never fails. pretty big statement to leave out .
then it goes on to say "But whether there are prophecies, they will fail; whether there are tongues, they will cease; whether there is knowledge, it will vanish away.

Notices it does not say "DiD fail," or did cease. Has knowledge vanished away ? NO the context is making a bigger point about the opening statement as does the whole Chapter of 13 LOVE.

verse 9 is one that those who say tongues are not for today cannot deal with so they attack the claim of those who say they speak in tongues. Yet they have a bigger issue with chapter 13 they run from.
let's look at the next part :

For we know in part and we prophesy in part. 10 But when that which is perfect has come, then that which is in part will be done away.

some think the "perfect" is the Bible , and we do not need the gifts of the Holy Sprit any more.
FYI When as the Word of God never been perfect? When has the Holy Spirit not been ?

this is a very big problem for them to explain(biblical truth always more powerful then human reasoning).
those same people who say that the Bible is that which is perfect to come, will in the same breath state " the Bible has errors ". smh.

What do we know from the text and the unit chapters ? what is the perfect to come?

the word is here and is Perfect Ps 19:7
"The law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul; The testimony of the Lord is sure, making wise the simple;

We know the Holy Spirit has always been Here:

Gen 1:2 " The earth was without form, and void; and darkness was[a] on the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters.



Lets continue is 1cor 13 shall we?

11When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child; but when I became a man, I put away childish things. 12 For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I shall know just as I also am known.

when was the "then" ? did we miss something ? What is it that we "shall know" ?

verse 13"13 And now abide faith, hope, love, these three; but the greatest of these is love.
what shall we know ? from verse 1 cor chapter 13 to the last verse of in 13 Love is the answer .
But if those who think this has to do with tongues ceasing remember the full context is in the unit of the three chapters contextually.

on to 1cor 14 verse 1

Pursue love, and desire spiritual gifts, but especially that you may prophesy.

WHAT ? there is the word LOVE from chapter 13 and the command to desire spiritual gifts , Hmm I thought they were done away with in chapter 13 ? and then it says to especially that you may prophesy which some take as no speaking in tongues .

The Bias for and against tongues all to the same thing fail to read the full context of the three unit chapters and when they are shown this, many of them result to scientific mockery because it does not accept the word of God.
"You who are spiritual restore such a one "

those who have issues with foolishness in operation of the gifts of the Holy Spirit abuses do happen. As abuses with every gift God has entrusted man and women with.
no other gift then the Pulpit Gods spokesmen has done more to harm the faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.

The Bible teaches we who are spiritual= mature are to correct this. 1cor 14 tell us how to do it. The church needs to remember there is a big problem with churches today and those who go:

1. No relationship with Jesus, they have been taught the Love God accepts you sin and all.
2. Bible illiteracy many have no biblical understanding
3. no correction of misuses of the gifts of the Holy Spirit.


There are levels of error caused by various reasons



1. Ignorance & unlearned
2. Immaturity
3. Bad role models
4. Biblical error
5. False teaching
6. The spirit of anti-christ

each one of those with the exception of "spirit of anti-christ" can be done by a christain that has not been corrected.

When I see this in a service we correct it with and in a loving way.

if the person is not willing to accept correction as some do they are asked not to speak in the service and we explain by what authority we can do this according to the word of God, not human logic or linguist .
many who will not like it do not come back and guess what they go looking for another location to be foolish.

Just so you know it is the Church location job to allow them to make a mistake and teach them a better way. Not beat them over the head and say you have demon. " you who are spiritual restore such a one.

many are not looking to restore and corrrect error, they look to attack the gift of the Spirit and use human logic to explain spiritual things LOL. the Word of God does not show us that.

 

[notuptome]

You will notice those who use incorrectly 1cor 13:8 and only quote part of the verse "Whether there be tongues, they shall cease".

that is not the context of 1cor 13:8 again they fail to read the three chapters as a unit 1cor 12, 13, and 14. they cherry pick .

So Lets look at the context of "Whether there be tongues, they shall cease".

the open verse says " 8 Love never fails. pretty big statement to leave out .
then it goes on to say "But whether there are prophecies, they will fail; whether there are tongues, they will cease; whether there is knowledge, it will vanish away.

Notices it does not say "DiD fail," or did cease. Has knowledge vanished away ? NO the context is making a bigger point about the opening statement as does the whole Chapter of 13 LOVE.

verse 9 is one that those who say tongues are not for today cannot deal with so they attack the claim of those who say they speak in tongues. Yet they have a bigger issue with chapter 13 they run from.
let's look at the next part :

For we know in part and we prophesy in part. 10 But when that which is perfect has come, then that which is in part will be done away.

some think the "perfect" is the Bible , and we do not need the gifts of the Holy Sprit any more.
FYI When as the Word of God never been perfect? When has the Holy Spirit not been ?

this is a very big problem for them to explain(biblical truth always more powerful then human reasoning).
those same people who say that the Bible is that which is perfect to come, will in the same breath state " the Bible has errors ". smh.

What do we know from the text and the unit chapters ? what is the perfect to come?

the word is here and is Perfect Ps 19:7
"The law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul; The testimony of the Lord is sure, making wise the simple;

We know the Holy Spirit has always been Here:

Gen 1:2 " The earth was without form, and void; and darkness was[a] on the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters.



Lets continue is 1cor 13 shall we?

11When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child; but when I became a man, I put away childish things. 12 For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I shall know just as I also am known.

when was the "then" ? did we miss something ? What is it that we "shall know" ?

verse 13"13 And now abide faith, hope, love, these three; but the greatest of these is love.
what shall we know ? from verse 1 cor chapter 13 to the last verse of in 13 Love is the answer .
But if those who think this has to do with tongues ceasing remember the full context is in the unit of the three chapters contextually.

on to 1cor 14 verse 1

Pursue love, and desire spiritual gifts, but especially that you may prophesy.

WHAT ? there is the word LOVE from chapter 13 and the command to desire spiritual gifts , Hmm I thought they were done away with in chapter 13 ? and then it says to especially that you may prophesy which some take as no speaking in tongues .

The Bias for and against tongues all to the same thing fail to read the full context of the three unit chapters and when they are shown this, many of them result to scientific mockery because it does not accept the word of God.
"You who are spiritual restore such a one "

those who have issues with foolishness in operation of the gifts of the Holy Spirit abuses do happen. As abuses with every gift God has entrusted man and women with.
no other gift then the Pulpit Gods spokesmen has done more to harm the faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.

The Bible teaches we who are spiritual= mature are to correct this. 1cor 14 tell us how to do it. The church needs to remember there is a big problem with churches today and those who go:

1. No relationship with Jesus, they have been taught the Love God accepts you sin and all.
2. Bible illiteracy many have no biblical understanding
3. no correction of misuses of the gifts of the Holy Spirit.


There are levels of error caused by various reasons



1. Ignorance & unlearned
2. Immaturity
3. Bad role models
4. Biblical error
5. False teaching
6. The spirit of anti-christ

each one of those with the exception of "spirit of anti-christ" can be done by a christain that has not been corrected.

When I see this in a service we correct it with and in a loving way.

if the person is not willing to accept correction as some do they are asked not to speak in the service and we explain by what authority we can do this according to the word of God, not human logic or linguist .
many who will not like it do not come back and guess what they go looking for another location to be foolish.

Just so you know it is the Church location job to allow them to make a mistake and teach them a better way. Not beat them over the head and say you have demon. " you who are spiritual restore such a one.

many are not looking to restore and corrrect error, they look to attack the gift of the Spirit and use human logic to explain spiritual things LOL. the Word of God does not show us that.

LOL Filled with straw men and false assumptions.

Who here would attack the gift of the Spirit?

For the cause of Christ
Roger