Commandments, AGAIN1

[Ariel82]

Something occurred to me now and I can actually just smile about it. I sometimes forget that I am speaking to people in a first world country with a different set of moral rules than us here in Africa. You see when you look at the diverse cultures in Africa it will make the hairs on your arm stand on end because the believes are totally different from Western believes.

Like take Ahwatukee and Gabriel20’s (A&G) comments about the law. I will give an example and maybe we can start to agree on certain aspects about law and grace. If I ask A&G will you have sex with your sister, your mother your cousin or nieces? The answer will be (hopefully) No. You are basically adhering to +-20 laws in Torah.

Now, let us ask this question to the guy working in my garden with a whole different set of moral rules and we might just run away. You see in a culture where these things are not frowned upon you need rules. If I give somebody a printed version of the New Testament I could hope that they will understand certain things and that theHoly Spirit will lead them in truth but where is God’s blue print?

Let’s use my gardener again. If I tell him do not rape or whatever he will ask me, why? He is not mature in Christ and without the true guidance of the Spirit because of his traditions, familiar spirits etc. God will not change His character for us. His word his true and without change, and without explaining Western rules to my gardener I can point him to God saying because He said no.

There are very little laws in Torah that cannot be explained and that is why it is so laughable.Every person should at least read Torah before deciding not to adhere to God’s word.

That does give it a different perspective

 

[Ariel82]

That is a good answer, forgiveness is the first step in a long and perhaps highly emotional process. A mother may understandably hate the murderer of her child, how can she possibly, even if she wants to, convert those very natural emotions of loathing into a feeling of love for the murderer as we are commanded by Jesus who told us to love our enemies?

I believe anger in itself is not a sin. The Bible says to "be angry but do not sin. Do not let the Sun set on your anger. Do not give place to the devil"

I believe God does expect us to follow laws and instructions which he gives us in the New testament (not enslave people to old covenant laws and practices) and understood by the leading of His holy spirit.

Some people need the rituals and repetitive reminders to follow God. In our church we call them spiritual practices which can be based upon things in the Bible.

I believe one spiritual practice often neglected in the fellowship with other believers just to listen and pray with one another.

It is not helpful to tell the mother not to be angry. It just leads to a false mask or anger at you.

Instead we should listen and let them express themselves. Maybe pray with them if they are willing to ask God for help, understanding, peace, forgiveness.

We can't really give to others unless we first receive forgiveness and love from God.

As brothers and sisters we should encourage one another to follow as the Holy spirit leads. His commandments aren't written in the pages of a book but in the flesh of our hearts.

As some said earlier they are to love God and love others. Not by the Letter of the law which kills but by the Spirit who leads us into green pastures and still waters. Who gives us peace not as the world gives but as only God can give.

People can make a list of things others should and shouldn't do, but what we need to focus on is what God wants us to do.

Forgiving others is hard. Loving our enemies even harder.

In the forums, I wonder how much true love is shown to others who don't agree with our thoughts or doctrines?

God knows, but I feel that too often people talk the talk but don't walk the walk where agape love is concerned.

 

[Ariel82]

I come from Africa, have evangelised in several Africa countries, and been involved in planting churches in three Africa countries.
Consequently, I am very familiar with the cultures of many ethnolinguistic groups throughout Southern Africa.

It has never been OK in these cultures to indulge in incest or rape women!
It happens (particularly in South Africa because it is currently a crime-ridden hole where crimes of all types prosper), but people who indulge in these activities, particularly in their own communities, will just be killed by their own communities.
Are there individuals with psychopathic traits who could care less about the cultures in which they live?
Sure!
And they are found in every society in the world - Australia has no shortage of these types (but they tend to spend a lot of time in prison here).
But to try and define a culture by these people is not only merely inaccurate, but highly insulting to that culture!

I have lived in black communities, both in South Africa and in Zambia and Zimbabwe, and in many ways I much prefer their company to arrogant, highly individualised and selfish westernised Anglo-Saxons!

For others who read the post I am responding to by GandalfThe White just take it from me that that what you are reading just represents his own narrow-minded cultural mindset.

I would just ignore his paternalistic racism as well as his legalism...

It's interesting to see two different assesments of the same culture.

Makes one wonder If God does teach common human decency and his moral laws to all cultures and not just the Isrealites?

The Bible shows us that Israel was special because of the Seed and the prophecies about Jesus.

The more I learn about the world, the more it appears that the contrast between true Christianity and any other religion or culture is not the set of laws that govern morality but the grace found in Jesus redeeming work upon the cross.

 

[Ariel82]

It seems there are a lot of deaf ears and blind eyes in the thread...

Be careful of the name calling.
It's like throwing stones in a glass house.

 

[Ariel82]

For all of you "love" folks who say the laws are no more..........read carefully.

Love is a law for us in two parts. If love were fulfilled, and it never will be, it would be no longer.

No law comprising love is "fulfilled." Tell me we are not to obey the law according to Jesus christ, and I will know you are left behind for the time being.........

The old covenant laws are no more. Jesus established new covenant laws that may seem similar to the Old but with many differences and the added benefit of the Holy Spirit to explain how they apply individually to our lives.

 

[Ariel82]

For example do you spiritually murder others in your heart and through your words?

*****
◄ Matthew 5 ►
English Standard Version

21“You have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not murder; and whoever murders will be liable to judgment.’ 22But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brotherc will be liable to judgment; whoever insultsd his brother will be liable to the council; and whoever says, ‘You fool!’ will be liable to the helle of fire. 23So if you are offering your gift at the altar and there remember that your brother has something against you, 24leave your gift there before the altar and go. First be reconciled to your brother, and then come and offer your gift. 25Come to terms quickly with your accuser while you are going with him to court, lest your accuser hand you over to the judge, and the judge to the guard, and you be put in prison. 26Truly, I say to you, you will never get out until you have paid the last penny.

****
Ephesians 4
26Be angry and do not sin; do not let the sun go down on your anger, 27and give no opportunity to the devil.

 

[Endoscopy]

That would be the TWO commandments.

Remember that before JESUS died on the cross on our behalf,the way Into the most holy place was not yet so then we would have to be perfectly righteous to GOD and that would mean keeping every jot or tittle of the law with our own Individual strength and no one would have been acceptable to GOD who loves righteousness If they were trying to fulfill the TEN commandments.

Jesus said the law will last forever. That means all 613 laws scattered in the Torah are in effect. We have no hope of keeping that law. Therefore we must accept the grace through faith that Jesus gave us on the cross. All who reject Him will face judgment based on the law. We acknowledge the law is in place when we admit that we sin since sin is transgression of the law.

 

[Endoscopy]

X

Can someone answer, are we saved BECAUSE we obey, or Obey BECAUSE we are saved?

Neither one. We attempt to obey but as paul complained about the law of sin in him and really all of us.

Romans 7 NIV

14 We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. 15 I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. 16 And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. 17 As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. 18 For I know that good itself does not dwell in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 19 For I do not do the good I want to do, but the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing. 20 Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.
21 So I find this law at work: Although I want to do good, evil is right there with me. 22 For in my inner being I delight in God’s law; 23 but I see another law at work in me, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within me. 24 What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body that is subject to death? 25 Thanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord!
So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God’s law, but in my sinful nature a slave to the law of sin.

 

[GandalfTheWhite]

I come from Africa, have evangelised in several Africa countries, and been involved in planting churches in three Africa countries.
Consequently, I am very familiar with the cultures of many ethnolinguistic groups throughout Southern Africa.

It has never been OK in these cultures to indulge in incest or rape women!
It happens (particularly in South Africa because it is currently a crime-ridden hole where crimes of all types prosper), but people who indulge in these activities, particularly in their own communities, will just be killed by their own communities.
Are there individuals with psychopathic traits who could care less about the cultures in which they live?
Sure!
And they are found in every society in the world - Australia has no shortage of these types (but they tend to spend a lot of time in prison here).
But to try and define a culture by these people is not only merely inaccurate, but highly insulting to that culture!

I have lived in black communities, both in South Africa and in Zambia and Zimbabwe, and in many ways I much prefer their company to arrogant, highly individualised and selfish westernised Anglo-Saxons!

For others who read the post I am responding to by GandalfThe White just take it from me that that what you are reading just represents his own narrow-minded cultural mindset.

I would just ignore his paternalistic racism as well as his legalism...

You know gNp, I don’t know if I should laugh or cry… maybe I am more dumbfounded by your holier than thou attitude. For one, I am not the one running away from this crime-ridden hole but I stay to try and make a difference. I am also qualified and can get out of South Africa. It is funny that the one running away will say “hey you racist”.

The other thing that make me shake my head is that you are a doctor and you are not willing to admit that there is a culture in South Africa where a witchdoctor will tell people to rape a virgin and be cured from aids…. The rest of it I am not even going to mention here.

The raping of women and brutal murder of people, well it happened in South Africa, Zambia and Zimbabwe and it is easy for you to tell people behind your keyboard that is not their culture but I doubt it that you will send your wife or your daughter into any rural area or informal settlement after dark.

There was a time in South Africa where we didn’t have bars in front of our windows, so maybe you have lived here but you are not in Kansas anymore Toto.

 

[Ariel82]

Jesus said the law will last forever. That means all 613 laws scattered in the Torah are in effect. We have no hope of keeping that law. Therefore we must accept the grace through faith that Jesus gave us on the cross. All who reject Him will face judgment based on the law. We acknowledge the law is in place when we admit that we sin since sin is transgression of the law.

There is a difference between Old covenant laws and New covenant laws.

God wants us to keep New covenant laws, which only happens after accepting Jesus as savior and being empowered by the Holy spirit. Faith is the beginning not the end of our walk with God. We are told to add to our faith: virtue, knowledge, self control, perseverance, brotherly kindness and agape love.

Knowledge is learning what is right and wrong and the laws God expects us to follow...not man-made traditions or false enslavement back to the Old covenant ...laws that tell us how to be holy and godly people displaying His love and joy to the world.

This teaches us self control but we sometimes fail and need perseverance and a deep understanding that God's love and forgiveness picks us up even when we fall.

 

[GandalfTheWhite]

It's interesting to see two different assesments of the same culture.

Ariel, it is interesting to see this but if you ask an American living in France for a time to tell you about America, do you think they are going to give you an accurate summary or is it what they remember? You see like I said to gNp, it is easy to say you racist but you are running away because you don’t have the stomach to stay behind and make a difference.

The South Africa (even from two years ago) is a different place than where we live in now.........

 

[Ariel82]

Ariel, it is interesting to see this but if you ask an American living in France for a time to tell you about America, do you think they are going to give you an accurate summary or is it what they remember? You see like I said to gNp, it is easy to say you racist but you are running away because you don’t have the stomach to stay behind and make a difference.

The South Africa (even from two years ago) is a different place than where we live in now.........

Truthfully we can only speak about what we experience.

I understand being angry about being called a racist. I would be angry too.

.it's the humanness in us.the question is what would Jesus tell us to do?

I see value in all people's life experiences because God is shaping and forming us to reach people we could not if we were all made from the same mold.

No matter which country you look at two people's experiences will be different. It doesn't mean either experience is less true or valid.

 

[graceNpeace]

You know gNp, I don’t know if I should laugh or cry… maybe I am more dumbfounded by your holier than thou attitude. For one, I am not the one running away from this crime-ridden hole but I stay to try and make a difference. I am also qualified and can get out of South Africa. It is funny that the one running away will say “hey you racist”.

The other thing that make me shake my head is that you are a doctor and you are not willing to admit that there is a culture in South Africa where a witchdoctor will tell people to rape a virgin and be cured from aids…. The rest of it I am not even going to mention here.

The raping of women and brutal murder of people, well it happened in South Africa, Zambia and Zimbabwe and it is easy for you to tell people behind your keyboard that is not their culture but I doubt it that you will send your wife or your daughter into any rural area or informal settlement after dark.

There was a time in South Africa where we didn’t have bars in front of our windows, so maybe you have lived here but you are not in Kansas anymore Toto.

I knew where you were going with your insult the other day and now you have confirmed it by accusing me of running away from South Africa!
Well, you know nothing about me nor the reasons why I am living in Australia....
And, they are none of your business, and I do not need to justify myself to you!

I have lived in black settlements in rural areas in South Africa and elsewhere - so you can put that in your pipe and smoke it...
Also I have had all my family members either attacked or murdered at one time or another in South Africa. No one has escaped violent crime!
However, the people who did this are criminals and it is the grossest insult to attribute their actions to Zulu, Xhosa, or Sotho culture per se. The fact that you do this just goes to show that you are not speaking from a position of knowledge but rather your bigoted biases...

Unfortunately, you have put your bigotry and paternalism on the front page so to speak for everyone to see...

 

[GandalfTheWhite]

Truthfully we can only speak about what we experience.

I understand being angry about being called a racist. I would be angry too.

.it's the humanness in us.the question is what would Jesus tell us to do?

I see value in all people's life experiences because God is shaping and forming us to reach people we could not if we were all made from the same mold.

No matter which country you look at two people's experiences will be different. It doesn't mean either experience is less true or valid.

The thing is I am not even angry, maybe more disappointed in what turned out to be somebody I cannot associate myself with. We are all Christians, but man the fruit is lacking in some of us.

 

[GandalfTheWhite]

I knew where you were going with your insult the other day and now you have confirmed it by accusing me of running away from South Africa!
Well, you know nothing about me nor the reasons why I am living in Australia....
And, they are none of your business, and I do not need to justify myself to you!

I have lived in black settlements in rural areas in South Africa and elsewhere - so you can put that in your pipe and smoke it...
Also I have had all my family members either attacked or murdered at one time or another in South Africa. No one has escaped violent crime!
However, the people who did this are criminals and it is the grossest insult to attribute their actions to Zulu, Xhosa, or Sotho culture per se. The fact that you do this just goes to show that you are not speaking from a position of knowledge but rather your bigoted biases...

Unfortunately, you have put your bigotry and paternalism on the front page so to speak for everyone to see...

With all due respect, the only thing you have been doing is giving me your résumé. If you want to impress me you failed.

You may be a doctor but you lack bedside manner.

 

[Ariel82]

Forgiveness. Some scars run deep. When we hurt, we often speak out of anger.

Some times silence and prayer is better than words.

 

[graceNpeace]

With all due respect, the only thing you have been doing is giving me your résumé. If you want to impress me you failed.
You may be a doctor but you lack bedside manner.

And you may be whatever you think you are, but calling me a soutie is just the same, in terms of the insult delivered, as calling a black a man the K word (others won't know what I am referring to, but you do!) so get off your own high horse...

 

[gb9]

And you may be whatever you think you are, but calling me a soutie is just the same, in terms of the insult delivered, as calling a black a man the K word (others won't know what I am referring to, but you do!) so get off your own high horse...

have you seen what is going on in south Africa? with the farms being seized? with government officials saying anti-white things?

I am not saying I am an expert in south Africa politics, I normally agree with your posts, but I encourage you to do a little research into what is going on there before lecturing someone who lives there. or used to live there.

 

[Endoscopy]

There is a difference between Old covenant laws and New covenant laws.

God wants us to keep New covenant laws, which only happens after accepting Jesus as savior and being empowered by the Holy spirit. Faith is the beginning not the end of our walk with God. We are told to add to our faith: virtue, knowledge, self control, perseverance, brotherly kindness and agape love.

Knowledge is learning what is right and wrong and the laws God expects us to follow...not man-made traditions or false enslavement back to the Old covenant ...laws that tell us how to be holy and godly people displaying His love and joy to the world.

This teaches us self control but we sometimes fail and need perseverance and a deep understanding that God's love and forgiveness picks us up even when we fall.

I suggest you conform your view of the law to what Jesus said about it lasting until heaven and earth disappear. We admit it exists every time we admit we sin. Sin is defined as transgression of the law

Matthew 5:13 to 20 NIV
Jesus saying he came to fulfill the law and the prophets.

Salt and Light
13 “You are the salt of the earth. But if the salt loses its saltiness, how can it be made salty again? It is no longer good for anything, except to be thrown out and trampled underfoot.
14 “You are the light of the world. A town built on a hill cannot be hidden. 15 Neither do people light a lamp and put it under a bowl. Instead they put it on its stand, and it gives light to everyone in the house. 16 In the same way, let your light shine before others, that they may see your good deeds and glorify your Father in heaven.
The Fulfillment of the Law
17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19 Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.

 

[Endoscopy]

Ariel, it is interesting to see this but if you ask an American living in France for a time to tell you about America, do you think they are going to give you an accurate summary or is it what they remember? You see like I said to gNp, it is easy to say you racist but you are running away because you don’t have the stomach to stay behind and make a difference.

The South Africa (even from two years ago) is a different place than where we live in now.........

Your ignorance about America is because you don't understand what America is. It is unique being a melting pot with people from all over the world. During our constitutional convention the issue of slavery was raised wanting to outlaw it. The southern states refused to allow that. A statement was made that a bitter result would happen. Our Civil War was the result. 600,000 dead on the north side. 1 in 7 men living in the north at that time. Unknown on the South. That is more dead than all of our other wars combined. Huge bitter pill to swallow. The result permeates this country today. Racism though it exists is very small here.